Topic: Tolkien experts?

[Kanaboshi]

Hey, guys.

I'm planning a one shot game using RM2 (minus several of the magic using classes,) set in Middle Earth. This is intended to convince my Pathfinder obsessed group that it might be sometimes a good idea to play a bit of Rolemaster also.

I'm setting the game in Third Age 1700 in Arnor and was curious to know, at this stage, were the people of Middle Earth aware of the Witch King's identity as a Nazgul? Or was he just a mysterious sorcerer whose origins were unknown?

Any experts like to weigh in on the subject? It'd be most appreciated. My Google efforts and skimming a couple of my old MERP campaign books haven't been able to confirm or deny.

Thanks.

[Cory Magel]

What I could dig up on short notice...

Origin

In the manuscript of his notes for translators Tolkien stated that the Witch-king's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.[1] It is unknown if his association with the realm of Angmar (or use of sorcery) can be traced to a time before he received one of the Rings of Power. In the Second Age, the Rings of Power were forged by the Elves of Eregion under Sauron's direction, and nine of these were given to men of the time, one of whom became the Witch-king. The rings gave them immense power, and they "became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old."[2] The rings also made them immortal, but eventually corrupted them, turning them into the ghastly, undead Nazgûl. The Witch-king became their leader. The Lord of the Nazgûl served Sauron as his second in command for over 4000 years. He fought in the war against the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. When Sauron was defeated by the Alliance, the nine Nazgûl went "into the shadows".[3]

Campaign against Arnor

A millennium into the Third Age, the Witch-king reappeared in Angmar, a realm in the far North straddling the Misty Mountains. He quickly dominated Angmar, and turned to wage war against the three splinter kingdoms of Arnor (Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan); for Sauron, seeing that Gondor remained strong, sought to capitalise on the dissension among the northern kingdoms. It was during these northern wars, prosecuted against the Dúnedain for the next several hundred years, that the King of Angmar became known as the Witch-king. Rhudaur was soon compromised; power there was seized by evil Hillmen allied with Angmar. Argeleb I of Arthedain fortified the border against Rhudaur along the Weather Hills, but was killed in battle with Angmar and Rhudaur. The Witch-king then invaded Cardolan. King Arveleg I of Arthedain was killed defending Weathertop, but the palantír there was saved and moved to Fornost. The last Prince of Cardolan was killed, and most of the Dúnedain of Rhudaur were killed or driven out. Later the Great Plague destroyed many of the remaining Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits from Rhudaur and Angmar infested the burial mounds in the Barrow-downs.[4]

(All that was taken from the online Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-king_of_Angmar)

1300: Nazgûl reappear in Middle-earth, the kingdom of Angmar first appears at Arthedain's north-eastern border, built by the Witch-king, later revealed as Lord of the Nazgûl. (But doesn't say exactly when).

2043: King Eärnil II of Gondor dies and his son, the Witch-king's old enemy Eärnur, inherits the throne. Upon his coronation, the Witch-king challenges him to combat, but King Eärnur refuses.

2050: The Witch-king again challenges King Eärnur, this time he accepts. Eärnur rides out of Minas Tirith to meet the Witch-king in Minas Morgul. He enters the city's gates and is never seen again, thus ending the reign of the Gondorian Kings and causing the beginning of the Ruling Stewards of Gondor, until the time of King Elessar.

3019
- March' 10: Frodo and Sam see the Morgul host led by the Witch-king leave Minas Morgul. An army from the Morannon takes Cair Andros and enters Anórien.
- March' 15: Witch-king breaks the gate of Minas Tirith in the early hours. Denethor burns himself on a pyre. Confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch-king at the gate; Horns of the Rohirrim are heard at a cockcrow. Battle of the Pelennor Fields: Théoden King of Rohan is killed by the Witch-king; Éomer succeeds him as the eighteenth king of Rohan. Éowyn and Merry kill the Witch-king. Aragorn, Rangers, the sons of Elrond and men from the southern fiefdoms of Gondor arrive in the black ships and turn the tide of battle. Sam and Frodo escape and journey along the Morgai. Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; second assault on Lórien.

(All this was taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda#Second_Age)

Last bit...

..in TA 1975, general Eärnur of Gondor landed at the harbours of the Grey Havens, leading an army of Gondor. His army was joined by the Elves of Lindon and the remnant of the northern Dúnedain and marched on the Witch-king.[1] At Fornost

They did not meet the Witch-king at Fornost, but on the plains west of it toward Lake Evendim, home of the ancient kings of Arnor, Annúminas. The battle would forever be known as the Battle of Fornost. Eärnur's Dúnedain army was later joined in the mists of battle by Glorfindel and his Elven army from Rivendell. The Witch-king revealed himself and challenged Eärnur. As Eärnur attempted to attack, his horse was overwhelmed with fear of the Nazgûl lord and bucked. The Witch-king, taunting Eärnur, fled the battlefield. When Eärnur attempted to follow, Glorfindel stopped him with a warning that would become prophetic in the future:

    "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."

...sooo... after 1300 but no later than 1975?

How long would people think the "Witch-King" would live?  What race did they assume he was?  That might narrow the window down more since people would start to wonder how the Witch King lived so long maybe...?

The last comment... did the Elves know what the rings ended up doing to man and do they know who ended up with the ring?  i.e. who wound up being the Witch King?

[Kanaboshi]

Thanks for that, Cory.  Great reply.

It is most appreciated and certainly gives me a better idea of how to deal with him (as a very distant NPC.)

Any other theories as to when his identity began to be revealed?

[Frabby]

I cannot offer any more details. But I think you need to consider the sheer scope of the timeline.
By TA1700, it was generally assumed that Sauron had perished in the downfall of Númenor. The Ringwraiths, his servants, had faded into obscurity nearly two thousand (!) years ago. For all anybody knew at the time, Nazgûl were as much a weird fairytale from a bygone era as, say, Balrogs. The whole issue was just ancient history.
But most importantly, why would it have mattered to anybody that the present-day problem, the Witch-King of Angmar, was in fact one of Sauron's lieutenants of old? After all, Sauron wasn't going to come back, right? 

[Kanaboshi]

Thanks for the reply, Frabby.

Seems reasonable. So, the consensus seems to be, much like the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, nobody knew exactly what the Witch King was for most of his reign in Angmar.

I think this is how I'll deal with it in my game.

Still curious, if anyone can find a specific reference to when he was revealed a Nazgul, though.

[markc]

 I would say that the average person did not know but the IIRC (it has been a long time since I read some of the Lost Tales) was there not a story that had the bearers of the rings talk about the fact that the Necromancer might have been the lead ring wraith and sends Gandalf to look into the tomb's? IIRC the was the scene in the Hobbit movies. But even after they find out that the tombs had been disturbed "they" the good side did not know that they were the same person until almost til the very end end.
 So I think if I was to rule it I would rule that Gandalf knew in March 3019 after he met him but, did he tell a lot of people that he knew or suspected they were one and the same? I think he would have told the other ring bearers and the Istarri (I do not remember the spelling) if he had the chance as it was an important problem for them to deal with but not a problem that I think they would think a normal person could deal with.
 In short unless your group has ring bearers in it and the rings are fairly powerful rings they would not know.
MDC     

[egdcltd]

I would guess that Glorfindel, at least, knew who the Witch-king was when the forces of Gondor and the Elves defeated those of Angmar at the Battle of Fornost in TA1975, for that was when he prophesied that the Witch-king would fall by the hand of no man. Which does suggest that Glorfindel knew something about who or what the Witch-king was.

The scene with the tombs from The Hobbit films was apparently added. The Witch-king had already gone to the Morgul Vale by that time, and Minas Ithil had fallen to the Nazgul.

[markc]

 I had thought that the word's from Gorfindel were prophecy and not really understood at the time or at the time meant that the Witch King would not be slain on the battlefield that day by the other sides troops. Again a simple saying at the time proved to be prophecy for later years.
 Also just how much fact vs fiction is out there in life? How many times does a person build up something of a mystery around them that comes unraveled after something happens. It just happens in this case that the prophecy was true and not some sort of fiction.

 
 Yes the scene from the Hobbit movies came from one of the Lost Tale books and was were I remember reading the story it was not part of the original Hobbit book that I read way back in the early 80's.


 You can also ask yourself, how many times before the Ring Wraiths started making their appearances back in Middle Earth did a rumor of them doing things occur? Were they the devil of their times? ie better be good or the Ring Wraiths will come and get you. Or were they a more forgotten threat that wanted to be forgotten until the time came for them to arise.
 Thinking about this issue right now an image came to mind in which some of the company who survived Moria were sitting in a bar talking and if some people overheard what them talking about the Balrog. Would they believe them or just pass it off as "tales from the cup" so to speak?
MDC 

[Kanaboshi]

 In short unless your group has ring bearers in it and the rings are fairly powerful rings they would not know.
 

Ha, ha.  Yeah, not planning on having any ring bearers in the party.

Thanks for the replies, Mark. It's kind of a shame that so little was written about this period. But, it's also kind of cool for setting your game in, giving you a bit more creative license. I guess that's why ICE often used this time period in their MERP supplements back in the day. Works better than The One Ring's inter-book (i.e. between the Hobbit and LOTR,) for me.

[markc]

 Something to remember that there were a number of lesser rings crafted that could do a number of things, you can look at Treasures of Middle Earth to see some examples of such.
 In my games of the way past I adjusted the powers of the rings so lesser rings were more powerful and the greater rings were more powerful still. I essentially added another tier to my perceived rankings of people/beings normal, lesser ring/greater ring(Istari (sp)/Balrog/etc).
  Doing so was a lot of fun for the players as it got them into a lot of discussions and things that they would not generally had access to if they were normal's.
MDC

[Mourglin]

Kanaboshi,

I ran a long term Middle Earth game using RM (house rules added).  I started my campaign in the 1900's in the Anduin vales, with tie-ins and hooks to Arnor. Eventually my group of players wound up in Fornost and were deeply involved working with the scouts/rangers who patrolled the north and east frontiers between the kingdoms forts and towers. Ultimately they were present during the siege of Fornost and the collapse of the North Kingdom.

Because of all the meta knowledge of JRR's works, they knew exactly who the robed figure was leading the assault, it could not be denied and I would expect your players to come to the same conclusion as soon as a character like the Witch King is introduced (if ever).

IMO RM doesn't mix well with Middle Earth even though ICE built up a great deal of material for that setting. I hate to say it but most of ICE's implementation was sort of draped in high magic ala D&D style. Most of things dealing with NPC's, magic and items are not within the spirit of Tolkien's philosophy on power/magic etc. To that end, I diluted a lot of Rolemaster's magic down to very mundane levels, which would seem draconian or unfair to many here I'm sure. It will be a huge adjustment to run Middle Earth right when you have a group of D20'ers who have been steeped in Wizards of the Coast / TSR games.

If you want any details and or campaign ideas I've developed years of material I'd be willing to share, very much centered upon T.A. 1974-75 and the collapse and events leading up to it.

I enjoyed reading this article which you can probably find on the interwebs somewhere.

WEAVING MAGICAL REALISM THROUGH NATURE

R. Benjamin Gribbon and W. Joseph Balderson: University of South Florida, 4202 East Fowler Ave, ENB118, Tampa, Florida 33620-5350, USA
©1994 R. Benjamin Gribbon and W. Joseph Balderson; first published in Other Hands 4.

---

Mourgin

[Weald Walker]

WEAVING MAGICAL REALISM THROUGH NATURE
R. Benjamin Gribbon and W. Joseph Balderson: University of South Florida, 4202 East Fowler Ave, ENB118, Tampa, Florida 33620-5350, USA
©1994 R. Benjamin Gribbon and W. Joseph Balderson; first published in Other Hands 4.
---

Good info Mourglin!
Here is the document you mentioned initially, plus another VERY relevant one for anyone trying to relate RM magic to ME. It's: THE POWER OF SPELLS IN MIDDLE-EARTH
Wesley J. Frank: 949 N Humphrey Ave, Oak Park, IL 60302-1417, USA (wesjfrank@aol.com) ©1995 Wesley J. Frank; first published in Other Hands 10/11.

[markc]

Approved.
MDC

[Kanaboshi]

It will be a huge adjustment to run Middle Earth right when you have a group of D20'ers who have been steeped in Wizards of the Coast / TSR games.

Thanks for your thoughts, Mourglin.

You're right, the move from D20 to a low magic version of RM could be jarring. But, I think it should go okay. None of the players are big power-gamers and they usually play martials in Pathfinder anyway. I'm the one with a 9 level caster fetish - just not in Middle Earth... We'll see how it goes. The main problem I foresee is the look on their face when their level 10 fighter dies from one ill-timed "66".

[Kanaboshi]

Here is the document you mentioned initially, plus another VERY relevant one for anyone trying to relate RM magic to ME. It's: THE POWER OF SPELLS IN MIDDLE-EARTH
Wesley J. Frank: 949 N Humphrey Ave, Oak Park, IL 60302-1417, USA (wesjfrank@aol.com) ©1995 Wesley J. Frank; first published in Other Hands 10/11.

That was interesting. Thanks.

Magic is certainly one of the major issues, if not the major issue, of using RM to play in Middle Earth.

I'm planning to limit magic to just a few lists. The healing lists, which seem necessary and don't seem out of place, perhaps with a slight reflavouring, as there was a fair amount this in Tolkien.

Also, I like the look of the Bard lists. I think I'll keep most of them - but no elemental spells. I'm pretty sure I remember Lightning Bolt appearing on one of the Bard's lists - that'll be removed. But, a list like "Controlling Songs" for example seems appropriate.

The other lists I'm thinking of using is the (Evil) Mentalist lists for the BBEG Numenorean sorcerer. The straight sorcerer lists don't seem like a good fit to me (although, I love the sorcerer lists for non-ME RM,) but the mental domination we see on the evil mentalist lists seems not too far removed from the voice of Sauruman etc.

The other thing I've noticed when using RM in Middle Earth is stories tend to get darker and nastier than Tolkien. Maybe that's my own shortcoming as a GM. However, those crit tables make encourage me to make things graphic. So, I think, as far as telling our own version of a Tolkien story goes, I'm already doomed to fail. It'll be like a grittier, nastier Middle Earth. I seem to be unable to help myself here.

[Cory Magel]

You might try to get your hands on the ICE 2nd Ed MERP book.  It is basically a RM Lite and is pretty much everything you need in that one book.

[Frabby]

IMO RM doesn't mix well with Middle Earth even though ICE built up a great deal of material for that setting. I hate to say it but most of ICE's implementation was sort of draped in high magic ala D&D style. Most of things dealing with NPC's, magic and items are not within the spirit of Tolkien's philosophy on power/magic etc. To that end, I diluted a lot of Rolemaster's magic down to very mundane levels, which would seem draconian or unfair to many here I'm sure.

+1 from me. I've reached the same conclusions literally decades ago. But my group isn't exactly composed of ardent Tolkienists so nobody except me had a problem with the magic system and its incompatibility with Middle-Earth. Hence, we never dumbed down the magic rules. What I did do was to run an overall low-magic environment (which unfortunately makes the spellcasters even more powerful) and an overall low-power environment that has seen our highest-level character of 15 years of gaming reach level 12. Most of the group is between levels 5 and 7, where their magic power isn't too obviously out of scale for a Middle-Earth campaign.

If you want any details and or campaign ideas I've developed years of material I'd be willing to share, very much centered upon T.A. 1974-75 and the collapse and events leading up to it.

Our group plays in Arnor just prior to the War of 1409, which is planned to be the culmination of our campaign. Because of the obvious similarities in the backstory I'd be very interested in your material. Because, frankly, I'm running out of story ideas.

[Weald Walker]

Yeah, good idea on the MERP 2e book...duh! When in doubt, I'd go with making the game fun and interesting for your players, everything else is secondary. You know your group better than any game designers ever could.

I disagree a bit on Tolkien's combat not being gritty or realistic. Throughout his stories, characters are eaten, stabbed, slashed, limbs chopped off (or bitten off by your average Carcharoth), etc. There's a high level of the threat of violence always present in his world setting. What's missing is a lot of the "darkness" that could have come if JRR had elaborated more on various evil deeds done by the antagonists. When Uruk-hai attack and pillage a village, sure there would be lots of rape, murder, and general mayhem. JRR seemed to always take the high road and mention the evil deeds, not glamorize or revel in their descriptions. IMHO

[Ecthelion]

IMO RM doesn't mix well with Middle Earth even though ICE built up a great deal of material for that setting. I hate to say it but most of ICE's implementation was sort of draped in high magic ala D&D style. Most of things dealing with NPC's, magic and items are not within the spirit of Tolkien's philosophy on power/magic etc.

I would not disagree on the last point of RM magic and item rules not being "within the spirit of Tolkien's philosophy". But I disagree on the first point of RM not mixing well with Middle Earth, because for an FRPG that IMO wholly depends on whether it is important for GM and players to use a gaming system that stays true to the Tolkien canon. If that is important - as it seems to be for you - then RM might be a poor choice, at least if not with modified rules. If staying true to the Tolkien canon is not that important for the gaming group, as in the case of my group, then it is quite a good fit.

YMMV

[yammahoper]

1st age games rock!