Author Topic: A new level of archery  (Read 6884 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JohnK

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • OIC Points +0/-0
A new level of archery
« on: January 24, 2015, 04:16:40 AM »
Something similar had been posted, about this guy, years ago on the forum. He does some impressive things with the bow. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
http://johnkapsalis.deviantart.com/

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 09:56:55 AM »
Wow, I see Lars Anderson has progressed even further into the absurd! Amazing feats.

So I actually got a lesson into his basic technique last year. When the video talks about shooting from the right side of the bow and not the left, what's really going on is a switch from a finger release (traditional in much of Europe including Britain) to a thumb release (traditional in many other parts of the world). The finger release is not well suited to holding your arrows (because three of your fingers are engaged leaving on the thumb and pinky free), whereas it can work in the thumb release (optimally only your thumb and forefinger are engaged, leaving three free fingers). I can not do it fast, but starting with four arrows in hand and moving what feels slowly and deliberately is on par with my speed-shooting finger release speeds. I've tried seven arrows as well, and ten is the same principle. After that you run out of space between your fingers. The person who showed me said that 7 or 10 arrows slows him down a bit, but we're talking fractions of seconds here.

It does take some time to "load your hand" when you do this. When Lars is grabbing arrows and shooting, at most it's 2-3 arrows at a time. I don't think you could do the max speed 10-arrow trick and quickly get back to it. It's something you could start a battle ready for, but then when you exhaust those 10, your speed would drop. Obviously if you are trained to absurd levels, it doesn't drop as much as for the rest of us.

My problem is that my accuracy is terrible with a thumb release. Need more practice! And my thumb doesn't tolerate it very well. But those aren't problems for people who have trained that way rather than finger release. As I noted, in many parts of the world it is standard. In some areas where finger release is standard, it quite possibly became that way because modern archery in many areas was essentially re-introduced as a sport starting in England, so they wrote the books and trained the teachers. Thumb release may have been even more common historically.

The English longbow is a bit of an outlier among combat bows. The typical bow used for war was 50-60 lbs draw everywhere else, and 90+ for longbows. (Though in fairness, note that a recurve bow has more power than a longbow of equal draw weight, and recurves were common in many arrows, so the functional gap is probably less than that makes it sound.) Although in the video he says his technique works with heavy bows, the one he is using does not look like a 90 lbs bow to me. Is finger release used with longbows by chance or because it's needed for strength? I'm not sure. I've never drawn a 90 lbs bow either way....
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2015, 12:17:29 PM »
Really amazing!

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2015, 12:19:29 PM »
I think they are pretty cool videos and you've got to respect the guys skill, however these videos are largely irrelevant to RPG's.  Because...
1) It would be horribly unbalancing in game terms.
2) He's not shooting at an intelligent, evasive, target.
3) He is simulating a (nearly?) complete mastery of the skill (Rank 50 plus 'Talents' anyone?).
There are probably more reasons, but they are enough.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2015, 01:57:37 PM »
 So new magic items, gloves of 3, 7 10 arrows. ;D  But as was pointed out missile weapons can be somewhat unbalancing in some RPG's and especially if you take lab results over RL examples.

[/size][size=78%]MDC  [/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2015, 02:17:08 PM »
With the RMU rules, you can shoot in as little as 30% plus 20% to draw an arrow which can be eliminated by talents. So, 30% per shot minimum. Adrenal Speed -- which I think is a good match for these things where the archer has time to prepare before taking their very fast actions -- can get you 100% additional activity. So at high levels, with no special rules, you could be shooting 6 arrows per round and have 20% action to spare...  Switch to a 5 second round (which I think is better for a variety of reasons) and that is on the order of what the fastest archers are doing -- a bit slower, but we are looking at combat and not target/trick shooting. To me, making this comparison is like comparing running and jumping speeds to Olympic records. It's good if we're in the same ballpark.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2015, 02:28:39 PM »
 There were/are many times I considered splitting the Adrenal Speed skill into more skills in RMSS/FRP as it seemed a bit to catch all, ie one skill for a specific type of melee weapon, one for thrown, one for a specific type of missile weapon and one for movement.


Note: House Rules Observation

 Also I played a round with different round durations and found if I kept the missile attack portion about the same but let most melee attacks take .8 of the same time it worked the best. But then as I stated it was a non official combat system more focused on melee and IMHO pointing out some of the flaws of missile/thrown combat I would expect to arise.
   Like in RL why did not more conflicts involve missile fire into melee? To hard to hit your target? Was the chance you hit your friend and kill them enough for most to not try it? etc.


MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2015, 04:19:29 PM »
I suspect that missile fire into melee is not viable at the ranges you want to keep your unit of archers at. In the game we are talking maybe 30-100' away. I think on the battlefield, if your archers are that close to the enemy, you've got a real chance of having them overrun and slaughtered.

Also, even if your archers reliably kill more of the enemy than of your own guys, killing any of your own guys is terrible for morale, and morale is incredibly important for period battles. That's the sort of thing that makes the troops think the commanders consider them disposable, which is what makes them desert.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2015, 04:27:34 PM »
To jdales point, this is one of the reasons I do not like some of the other RM rounds that do not limit the number of actions you can take.  For example, in RMSS no matter how much action % you had you were still only able to take three actions (i.e. fire, load, fire... then... load, fire, reload, etc).  This way you don't become the (unbalancing) Tasmanian devil of RM.

HO pointing out some of the flaws of missile/thrown combat I would expect to arise.
   Like in RL why did not more conflicts involve missile fire into melee? To hard to hit your target? Was the chance you hit your friend and kill them enough for most to not try it? etc.
Because...
 People like the guy in the video would be rare.
 Once it became a standard tactic it would (attempt to) be defended against in varying manners (shielding, overrunning them, etc).
 The people he would be firing at would be trying to avoid getting hit (partially resulting in...)
 Missing an enemy could mean hitting an ally.
 Etc...
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 505
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 07:13:20 AM »
It's just an example of ludicrous skill isn't it?

I've always been an advocate of faster, more *realistic* use of bows... this just seems to emphasise the point that, many of the feats deemed very, very, impractical by some GM's ARE possible IF the user is exceptionally well trained.

The practicalities of such apparent "over-the-top" effects cannot easily be translated into game-rule terms unless you are willing to accept that the RM combat system is an abstract and adapt your way of thinking to match. Perhaps your archer character really DOES fire that many arrows in a round.. it's just that, perhaps, the damage is consolidated into a single roll, not because of realism, but game time practicality... does anyone want the complication of making ten attack rolls each round? Would the other players want to wait while you do? How long would the character survive, with multiple chances of fumbles and weapon breakage?

In the end, RM combat is abstract, just add options for multiple fire to be represented by a single roll. i.e. splitting damage evenly between two-three targets equally. -20 to -30. If the targets have differing AC/DB, some arrows might miss, do no damage, that proportion of damage is lost. A critical roll is still caused, to those that would be hit but perhaps reduced in some fashion..




Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 12:37:09 PM »
lol... you'd need to carry 50 arrows for a five round combat. ;)

Seriously though (not that that wasn't), how would you deal with Deflections? One shot attack bonuses? Different types of arrows?

Again, the man in the video is shooting at predicatably moving, non-evasive, non-intelligent targets.  If you were shooting at a person, particularly one who knew you were shooting at them, how long do you think you'd need to aim before firing?  Even then, you'd be guessing which way they are going to dodge.  I say, since you already need to accept the round isn't 100% perfectly realistically represented, you simply accept the one shot in 10 seconds (or, within the rules however many you can get up to) as realistic and make adjustments for alternate situations from there.

I think those videos are cool, but they do not prove one iota of anything what-so-ever when it comes to combat archery.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 505
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 01:59:36 PM »
I think those videos are cool, but they do not prove one iota of anything what-so-ever when it comes to combat archery.

It goes quite some way to proving what is possible. Far enough to make me think that even a person who knows that they are being shot at would have a difficult time dodging incoming shots fired at that rate and that distance (most of which are almost point-blank).
After all, it's not just the firer who has to predict the possibly random motion of a target, it's the target that has to second-guess the firer.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 07:35:05 PM »
It goes quite some way to proving what is possible. Far enough to make me think that even a person who knows that they are being shot at would have a difficult time dodging incoming shots fired at that rate and that distance (most of which are almost point-blank).
After all, it's not just the firer who has to predict the possibly random motion of a target, it's the target that has to second-guess the firer.
Let's assume your bowman is cool as a cucumber and doesn't get rattled by someone headed towards him to split his head open.  I can't imagine your odds would be as good as this guys considering the smart target wouldn't be moving predictably, might have shield, will actively try to dodge, and might even throw something at you.  Now let's talk melee: It's a pretty commonly pointed out scenario that, in general, within ten feet a man with a knife is more dangerous than a man with a gun... and a bullet even faster than a bolt or arrow.  You're also not considering another very important factor.  Most combats aren't one on one.  If the archer is in melee range you probably aren't the only two people fighting, resulting in the archers attention needing to also be on it's surroundings since, if they are this deadly, they would be a primary target for engagement.

Sorry but, as impressive as those videos are, I have yet to see how they translate directly into actual combat... let alone be realistically portrayed in an RPG... let alone balanced for an RPG.  And, again, you're talking about someone pretty much at the top of the potential skill level.  Now, could you simulate this in an RPG?  Possibly.  With 50 Ranks, 100 Ag, 100 St, Prof Bonus, Talents, Magic Items, etc, etc.  It is by no means normal... which means it shouldn't be considered as a justification to improve missile fire overall (even if it was balanced, which it's not).
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 505
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2015, 01:59:30 AM »
I think that all the points you make against a bowman, are valid, though are also equally applicable to all melee participants and in the confusion of close-quarters battle.  It's not the difficulties of performing actions (which are great), similar to those in the videos, that I question... just the possibility of duplication those actions within the rules. It's fantasy. So let fantastic feats be possible even though apparently difficult. It's the skill and experience of the character that allows them.

I've read enough rubbish written about the artificial rules restrictions put upon archery & bowmanship that I know (even with my limited skill) that certain things are EASILY achievable... such as running whilst holding a partially-drawn bow and holding something in the other hand... or reducing loading time by preparing ammunition or holding them against the bow.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2015, 08:07:16 PM »
Oh yeah, you could easily duplicate what he's doing given the same situation and a darned good skill level.  That is, a master shooting at predictably moving, non-evasive targets.  Not really arguing that.  But too often people look at these videos and think they justify being able to do it at an actual foe without a fairly massive investment (DP's, Talents, high Stats, etc) in developing the skill.  They think it's 'proof' that missile weapons should be more deadly than they are in a RPG system.  That's where I have a problem with it.  Even if you could justify someone being this effective against a real live target, which obviously they would not, the imbalance of it would be system breaking.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2015, 08:25:29 PM »
No one is actually making that argument, though, so I think you are safe -- unless you feel that the rules make archery too fast already? I don't, because melee can achieve a similar rate of attacks. As long as they are on par, I think it's ok.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2015, 09:03:01 PM »
No, I don't think archery is too fast.  It has it's advantages and drawbacks.  Not being able to fire (or, really, draw/load) a missile weapon when someone is attacking you in melee and having to track ammo (although some don't bother) balance out the ranged attack and ability to easily changing targets.  Personally I think some of RMSS's reload times are even a bit long.

I will actually let someone fire an already loaded crossbow in melee if they win initiative.  If they don't it kinda depends on what kind of attack result is made against them.  I just won't let them load it again.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2015, 08:54:41 AM »
The current structure may work for archery, but it breaks down as soon as firearms enter a game.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2015, 10:47:08 AM »
I'm sure it's fine for muskets and other slow-loading black powder weapons.

But modern firearms, sure, they overwhelm all other weapons in importance and the pace of the round is totally different. You need a shorter round and abstract multiple shots into bursts because the rates of fire are so fast and the ability to respond to fast movement is also improved. I don't think it's in any way useful to contemplate modern firearms in designing a fantasy game, or to use the combat rounds from a fantasy game for a modern game with guns.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2015, 12:10:09 PM »
I'm sure it's fine for muskets and other slow-loading black powder weapons.

But modern firearms, sure, they overwhelm all other weapons in importance and the pace of the round is totally different. You need a shorter round and abstract multiple shots into bursts because the rates of fire are so fast and the ability to respond to fast movement is also improved. I don't think it's in any way useful to contemplate modern firearms in designing a fantasy game, or to use the combat rounds from a fantasy game for a modern game with guns.

I agree. I bring them up more as a reminder that one thing Rolemaster can be is a core system for other genres, and that we need to be mindful that what works for one setting/genre may not work for another. It can also factor into fantasy games that involve time-traveling aspects and have modern weapons making an appearance. Brian Daley's Coramonde books spring most immediately to mind, although there are other examples.
Darn that salt pork!