Author Topic: How much do you customize your game ?  (Read 11075 times)

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2017, 10:58:11 AM »

ICE really needs to get more players to RM as most of the long time players will probably never leave their current system

This is very true.  The main reason I never went to any newer version of RM from RM2 was the amount of money I had already invested in the game.  $15-$30 per book (about 20 books), then the Shadow World books I purchased later on, I am into RM2 for hundreds of dollars.  I don't have War Law, but I have every other book and about a dozen Shadow World books and Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn hard cover :)  (also an awesome book!).  When RMSS came out, it was a nice change and lots of cool new things added to it... but the book I bought was $30+ and was only one book.  There simply wasn't enough of a reason to get me to invest (possibly) $100+ into the new system.  Then RMFRP followed but I was out of college, my gaming buddies all went their separate ways.

It's been a couple of decades now.  I'm not a broke college kid working 3 part time jobs trying to stay afloat.  I have kids and they like RM2.  I've had a great interest in RMU and I've offered input in a lot of the Beta threads, gotten to know and to speak to the authors and the latest version looks to be really great.  I'm ready to jump in when everything is released.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2017, 09:20:29 PM »
Snap and Deliberate Equivalent Actions.
Making a “snap” action simulates attempting to perform your action quicker by sacrificing effectiveness in your action.  A “snap” action will add +2 to your initiative, but give a -20% penalty to your action.
Making a “deliberate” action simulates attempting to perform an action more skillfully by taking ones time in performing it.  A “deliberate” action will impose a -2 penalty to your initiative total, but will provide a +10% bonus to your action.
I use a similar set of rules for initiative, though I go with a 2d10 + average of Qu, In, and Ag, and I also add in a +2 per every 5 character levels to reflect experience. Also, I go with a +10 (-20%) / -10 (+10%) for Snap and Deliberate, respectively. That way, while you are very likely to go first if you Snap, it is not 100% guaranteed, someone who is incredibly quicker and/or much more experienced can still come out faster. (Though not if they also go Deliberate.)

I also use the AG/IN/QU mods for DB, only I don't average them, just add them and multiply the number by 2. (Yes, any negative attribute mods really hurt...)
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Offline Dragonking11

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 06:36:28 AM »
I also use the AG/IN/QU mods for DB, only I don't average them, just add them and multiply the number by 2. (Yes, any negative attribute mods really hurt...)

Interesting twist to the rules

What is your goal by using this formula ? Did you want to give more DB to the players overall or just wanted to spread the stats to reduce the importance of the Quickness stat ?

Offline Dragonking11

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 06:43:32 AM »
This is very true.  The main reason I never went to any newer version of RM from RM2 was the amount of money I had already invested in the game.

I always wondered why the RM2 people never took the RMSS train. I never played RM2, only RMSS, but from what I heard since, RMSS seems to have improved the game on a lot of core areas.

I'm curious to know if the majority of people hold onto RM2 because of their "investment" in the game at that point or if it is because the rules were so different that they chose to continue playing the game they were accustomed to.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 11:15:55 AM »
What is your goal by using this formula ? Did you want to give more DB to the players overall or just wanted to spread the stats to reduce the importance of the Quickness stat ?
Well, realism actually. I fully believe that simple quickness is not the sole determination factor for things like DB and Initiative. How well someone moves (Ag), everyone's innate "Spidey-sense" (In), as well as experience/training all come into play. In fact, if I was being even more real, I would make experience/training play a bigger part in Initiative (something I thought was a positive turn for many of the D20 systems that came out years ago, such as Spycraft/Fantasycraft; they added an Initiative modifier and Defense modifier to each of the classes).

Have you ever played Twilight 2000 (the original)? They have a stat called Coolness Under Fire which is used to determine how often/quickly a character goes, by determining how much they will hesitate (everyone will to one degree or another). This stat is directly proportional to how much combat experience one has. It shows the difference between the "boot" (aka: newbie) and the "salt" (aka: someone who has been in and seen lots of combat). The boot will hesitate much more than the salt (barring some mental issues, of course, but that is the purview of flaws / disadvantages), so the salt will be seen as doing more in the same amount of time. Experience matters, more than natural ability (something I think is a basic principle of the RM system) - unless you are talking about superheroes, then powers matter, a lot.
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Offline Dragonking11

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 12:03:14 PM »
I kind of agree with you on the "realism" part that it makes sense to include other stats such as Agility and Intuition in the Ini calculation.

I just wondered what side effects this would bring game play wise. It would be difficult for certain classes to achieve high natural DB if their primary stats are for example Reasoning and Empathy (an RMSS Magician). After putting 90 in those prime stats, it would be difficult to invest heavily in Quickness, Agility and Intuition.


Offline jdale

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 01:31:02 PM »
More stats will bring the extreme values towards the mean (both low and high). Using Intuition will make rangers quicker than magents and clerics quicker than magicians, which is a bit odd. Using Agility will tend to boost Arms characters over casters, but otherwise just devalues Quickness in my opinion. Agility is already very useful.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2017, 01:10:17 AM »
what rule changes did u make to spell system?
I think I wrote about the matter but I don't like how in RM2, magical realms are just arbitrary ways to separate spells. I think the main change I did was to put all Open spell lists together, all Closed spell lists together, and not associate any profession to any specific realm. Then, I wrote rules about what differentiates one realm from another, whilst considering a realm as a power source, meaning that the differences aren't about what a spellcaster can do depending on his realm but about how he fuels his spells, and the impact his realm has on his magical power rather than its application.
Oh, and I allow several spells being cast in the same round.

I did some of what Cory wrote about as well:
How multiple attacks work.
Multiple attacks are only against several opponents. Against one,it merely gives bonuses and additional criticals. Same for TWC.

Quote
How shields work.
I changed the bonuses so that each shield grants a higher DB bonus but inflicts an OB penalty. For instance, a target shield is +30 DB/-10 OB whilst a normal shield is +40 DB/-20 OB. As you can see, the net bonus is the same as it is now, but it gives "smaller" shields an advantage over "bigger" shields as one is offensively more effective.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2017, 07:30:14 PM »
This is very true.  The main reason I never went to any newer version of RM from RM2 was the amount of money I had already invested in the game.
I always wondered why the RM2 people never took the RMSS train. I never played RM2, only RMSS, but from what I heard since, RMSS seems to have improved the game on a lot of core areas.
I sort of eluded to it in another thread, but I think many RM2 users didn't see RMSS as an improvement because they understood RM2 quite well already and were either okay with what others perceive as flaws or had fixed them themselves already.  This is why I tell new users inquiring between RM2 and RMSS to go with RMSS, it's more NEW user friendly in my opinion and RM Classic is (imo) simply for RM2 users who were looking for reprinted RM2 material.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 02:00:39 AM »
IMO both RMC/RM2 and RMSS/RMFRP are dead ststems. There will be no new material for either.

They are played by an aging and diminishing community of players.

RMU is the future of the game and if you want to get started in RM any other advice is patently unfair.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 06:37:44 AM »

They are played by an aging and diminishing community of players.


Hey!  I'm not diminishing!  I've had to buy larger pants over the last couple of years!  Yeesh.



RMU is the future of the game and if you want to get started in RM any other advice is patently unfair.

Absolutely correct.  The newest system is on the cusp of being released.  Now is the time to jump in at the ground level with a fresh revision of a game system that so many of us still love.  This is sthe best time to bring younger and/or new players to RM.  I'm a die hard RM2 player, but I'm really eager for RMU to release.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 09:53:57 PM »
RMU is the future of the game and if you want to get started in RM any other advice is patently unfair.
I wouldn't say it's without doubt unfair.  It depends on what the user wants out of it.

There was little new material for RMSS that hadn't been published in RM2.  The same will be true of RMU.

All that material is out for RM2 and RMSS, it's not for RMU.  So if you want a more complete system now RMU isn't it.  If you're okay waiting for the materials to be revamped for RMU, it may be.
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Offline Dragonking11

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2017, 06:56:34 AM »
All that material is out for RM2 and RMSS, it's not for RMU.  So if you want a more complete system now RMU isn't it.  If you're okay waiting for the materials to be revamped for RMU, it may be.

I kind of agree there. Even if no new materials will ever be produced for older system such as RMSS and RM2, the fact is that those systems already have tons of supplemental books to play with.

RMU must be the future but if ICE takes their sweet time (as in a few years) before releasing supplemental materials, people will get bored, go back to their old system and never look at RMU again.

But let's just be positive here and hope for the best. I really wish for the Rolemaster franchise to reboot as it is one the best gaming system out there !

Offline Spectre771

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2017, 07:25:25 AM »


RMU must be the future but if ICE takes their sweet time (as in a few years) before releasing supplemental materials, people will get bored, go back to their old system and never look at RMU again.

This will definitely be a factor.  Looking back, I don't see a lot of supplemental material for SS or FRP which makes me all the more happier that I didn't invest a lot of money into those systems.

If the older stuff is easy, or somewhat easy, to convert into the new RMU system, that will be a good holdover as players wait for the new RMU supplements to be produced.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2017, 06:23:48 PM »
Not only do I doubt ICE will have the ability to do that in short order, but longevity as a company would be diminished if you cranked everything out at once.  I would be extremely surprised if you saw RMU catch up to RMSS any quicker than several years.

If the older stuff is easy, or somewhat easy, to convert into the new RMU system, that will be a good holdover as players wait for the new RMU supplements to be produced.
I think you underestimate the nature of the changes.  Size rules are very different, armor and weapon tables are different, percentages for actions is different, etc.  I'm somewhat hopeful there may be spell lists I'll eventually want, but given that they need to align with the other, sometimes widely effecting, changes even that may be problematic.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2017, 01:14:34 AM »
Not only do I doubt ICE will have the ability to do that in short order, but longevity as a company would be diminished if you cranked everything out at once.  I would be extremely surprised if you saw RMU catch up to RMSS any quicker than several years.

It does not always follow that what has gone before has to follow.

Eclipse Phase has a production team of just four people yet they have produced an average of one release a month for the past eight years. Some bigger such as full rules supplements and some smaller like new themed character sheets.

That was for version 1 of Eclipse Phase. They are only now doing the public playtest of their 2nd Edition.

Small can mean nimble rather than snowed under.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2017, 03:07:58 AM »
You do realize how long RMU has been in development and that they have no full time staff?
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2017, 05:07:00 AM »
You do realize how long RMU has been in development and that they have no full time staff?

I am painfully aware of that.

But also take into consideration that Brian Hanson has completely rewritten Character Law to fit hand in glove with Shadow World under the banner of SWARM. He had completely rewritten Spell Law for Shadow World under the heading of BASiL. He has completed the Priest King module amongst others. He is now working on a complete reworking of Arms Law.

He also has a full time job and all his output has been play tested or is currently in play test (with regard to his very high level Shadow World adventures).

Brian is but one person yet he is just a Creature Law short of an entire game system.

The question of full time staff is possibly self fulfilling. If you do not put out sufficient saleable quality products then you will not generate sufficient income to employ full time staff.

If you look at the earlier RoCos there were half a dozen professions, maybe 20 or so spell lists and then a mixed bag of optional rules. There are now clear rules for creating RMU professions and the core rules are much better in structure, there are less weird outlying exceptions. One person working part time could recreate an entire companion on their own. Much of the profession text would be a copy and paste job/proof read task. The skill costs are quicker to produce as there are rules for that. The spell lists are a larger task as the blanks need filling and the spells rebalancing. The optional rules, if they are even needed are going to be relatively easy to port across as RMU is better structured. The original optional rule author has done all the heavy lifting of identifying the problem and coming up with the rule concept.  Any new races are going to be easy to recreate as RMU has clear rules for race creation and the concepts are already in the old companions. The race descriptions are another copy and paste/correct task. There are quite a few critical tables in the companions and there are clear rules creating the new critical tables. The witticisms from the criticals can be copied directly across. There will only be a limited number of criticals that will have to be created from scratch to fit the new critical table structures.

In essence one person working part time could probably do a RM2 to RMU conversion in under two months. Two part timers could release a RM2 to RMU RoCo each month by staggering the releases.

Alternatively you could have one person go through all the companions and extract all the character races. Then use the RMU race creation rules to rebalance them all. The descriptive text is a copy paste/correct task. Re-use as much art as you can. You then have a RMU Racial Law. That is a quick and easy book to produce. At the same time you repeat but pull out all the Arms and Skill based professions. Rebalance them for RMU as we have rules for that. Drop in some new combat tables such as a dedicated Rapier table for a duellist profession and a dedicated shortsword, net and trident tables for the gladiators and you have a RMU Warrior Law. I concede that the spell lists will take longer but those first to companions are going to be significantly lighter so you can then move the effort to the larger tasks.

The early companions were basically the house rules from individual campaigns. They do not have to be like that. You can structure them so that they play into our own strengths. You can look at all those spell casting professions and all those spell lists and chop them up into realms. Many of the spells on the lists were repeats anyway so you can probably fill a few of the slots with the existing spell from RMU Spell Law.

I am not saying it has to be done the way I describe it. I am just painting a picture where ICE can be more nimble. If people are saying they will be reluctant to move to RMU because the additional support material will not be there then they can solve that problem. If the bottleneck is page layout then use freelance page layerouters. If the bottleneck is editing then use freelance editors. The money for these freelancers will come from the sales of the companions. It is a virtuous circle. The more alive an dynamic the game system appears the greater the likelihood that people will give it a go and buy into it.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2017, 10:07:40 AM »
ICE's staff pretty much are the freelancers, or people like them, that used to write for RM before ICE's most recent demise.
I'm not being critical of ICE in how long things are taking or will take, I'm just saying it's pretty much a reality based on how it's operating.

Your idea of how quickly things can be done just isn't that realistic.  For example, almost all of what you said about how old material can be recreated is exactly what happened from RM2 to RMSS and how long did that take?  As long, or longer, than I originally commented... with a full time staff.

Could we, as users do much of this ourselves?  Most of us already have with RM2 and RMSS, so obviously we can, but that's also why many didn't switch from RM2 to RMSS and why many won't switch from RMSS/RMFRP to RM2... because they already did.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How much do you customize your game ?
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2017, 10:49:33 AM »
ICE's staff pretty much are the freelancers, or people like them, that used to write for RM before ICE's most recent demise.
I'm not being critical of ICE in how long things are taking or will take, I'm just saying it's pretty much a reality based on how it's operating.

Your idea of how quickly things can be done just isn't that realistic.  For example, almost all of what you said about how old material can be recreated is exactly what happened from RM2 to RMSS and how long did that take?  As long, or longer, than I originally commented... with a full time staff.

Could we, as users do much of this ourselves?  Most of us already have with RM2 and RMSS, so obviously we can, but that's also why many didn't switch from RM2 to RMSS and why many won't switch from RMSS/RMFRP to RM2... because they already did.

The speed at which ICE operate is almost uniquely slow in my experience and the idea of the staff being the freelancers is missing the point. The objective in using freelancers is to bring in extra capacity at the point it is needed. As a snapshot Eclipse Phase, as I mentioned above, has managed an average of 1 new product release per month for the last eight year, Paizo has put out an average of 6 rulebooks and 3 adventure paths each year for the past 8 years. Pinnacle Entertainment have put out more than 20 supplements per year for the past 14 years. Evil Hat have 35 publications for the latest incarnation of FATE since 2013 or just over 8 per year.

I know all the staffers at ICE are part time but then so were all of the others listed above bar Paizo. They can now all afford staff because they publish books that make money.

This is all rather academic as ICE do things ICE's way. The target appears to be almost exclusively the existing players and we all already own RM in its past incarnations.
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