Author Topic: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies  (Read 5276 times)

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Offline Prince Finnion

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RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« on: January 23, 2018, 10:08:33 AM »
I'm introducing several players to the old 2nd edition system.  These are all D&D vets and 2 complete RP rookies (one is my son).  This has been an interesting journey and it's far from over for them.  I started them out at level 1 and have been bumping them up each week (until they hit 5) in an effort to get them familiar with the mechanics of the system and leveling up a character (which they seem to find very complex).  In my experience at level 5 you can actually hit something and get a fun critical, plus you can usually take a hit and not cry about it to badly, so once they get there the true challenges will start.

The vets tend to assume the system is just like D&D, even after seeing the complicated character sheets, in that there are only a few base classes and those roles all need to be filled.  They expect a very limited number of spells and for magic missile to always hit and give damage.  That kind of thing.

The biggest thing I tried to convey was the skills you need to survive. 
"Body Dev for you hits, without hits you die."
"General Perception, if you don't see it, it can kill you."
"Primary Weapon, if you can't kill it, it can kill you."

So after reviewing their skill sheets I learned that they were skipping a rank of BD or Weapons so that they can pick up Seduction or some other skills. I heard the comment, "I'll just get it next level."  Then there was the complaints about not having the best possible stats for every skill, or not having enough DPs for every skill on the sheet they thought they might use one day.  The Magician complaining that he has to prepare his level 2 Shock Bolt for a few combat rounds while the fighters kill everything.

So far they've fought a handful of level 2 orcs and a handful of level 2 brigands that they took care of with ease.  Then I threw just 6 Elothere at them (level 5 giant boars) and they almost died, lol.
As a quick side note, I use Middle-Earth as my background and reference the MERP system as source material.  They seem to love the idea since they've all seen the movies (I told them not to hold the Hobbit movies against Middle-Earth, it wasn't supposed to be like that) and a few have even read the books, one has even read the Silmarillion.

So what advice can I give these power gamers and noobs to help them through these trying times?  What advice can you give me with dealing with them? Or, what advice do you have in general for introducing new players to the system?

Offline Spectre771

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 11:00:19 AM »
I ran into this issue when I ran a mini-campaign for the AD&D players last year.  I gave them pre-made characters so they could see how the game system worked.  All PCs were level 5, but I stepped up the difficulty each week.  Small groups of goblins with an orc commander, make shift barricade/bunker manned with goblin archers/javelins and two orc captains etc.  When it came time to make a PC, they had an understanding of what skills they would probably use, not use, would like to have.

It sounds like your group is already beyond PC creation.  At this point, you have to keep reminding them "... this is not D&D..."  It's a base 100 system; percentile.  The group I have now are all level 1 and they aren't having any issues at all hitting other level 1, level 2 NPCs.  This last session, it was four level 1 PCs, vs. 6 level 1 PCs and the players did quite well.  A couple took some damage from heavy crits, but the others knew to parry, they worked the Barbarian into position for flank and back attacks with a battle axe, while the Romantic parried the flank attack going to the barbarian.  One player at full parry with a "token attack at +1 OB" and the barbarian able to focus full out attack +63

The difficulty should be commensurate with the players.  I looked at the stats of the players found the highest and lowest values for HP, OB, DB and planned their enemies based on those stats.  Some NPCs are on the higher end, others on the lower, but nothing they can't take out with some strategy; flanking, back attack, parry the attacks going to the mage so he can prep his spell, making sure the mage takes cover while prepping his spell, etc. 

As for crying about lack of DP for "all the skills they want"... they are focusing on the wrong skills.  They need the "live to fight another day skills" first, then extra ranks in the skills they really want to be better at, then the remainder goes to rounding out the PC with skills like Seduction, Duping, Tightrope Walking, whatever.  The player buying Seduction... is s/he a Romantic?  Dancer?  Houri?  The cost is a little higher for Seduction than those professions that would probably use it or specialize in it.

You have it right with the basics.  Primary weapon (2 ranks per level), secondary weapon maybe (1 rank per level), at least 1 rank in Body Dev every level no matter who you are, Maneuver in armour if they even wear it, General Perception, spell lists for the mage, directed spells for the mage.

I would add to your "must have skills", Stunned Maneuver and Sense Ambush Assassin.  HPs don't kill you, crits do.  When you get whacked with a "Stunned x# rounds", Stunned Maneuver is big.  Not getting caught in surprise or allowing an ambush to get a back attack on you is great. 

First Aid is also good to have.  After that... there should be plenty of DPs to buy a few of those "I want to have these skills."  Each level, purchase a couple more of those "I want" skills but focus on the "Live to fight another day skills" first.  Once those hit 10 ranks (hopefully by level 4) there are even more DP available for fine tuning all those "I want" skills they had been buying.

Just because RM lists the skills, doesn't mean you have to buy them.

If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 11:35:44 AM »
Spectre makes many good points. I would also add that you might want to let them know just in a general way that RM works a little differently than DnD. In Rolemaster, you start at a generally lower power level: think of a first level character as someone who has just passed adolescence, a young adult. Some people use the phrase 'fantasy Vietnam' to describe the fact that at that level, you are really just an ordinary person-- in fact, you are a young ordinary person. Tell them that they will eventually get to be quite heroic (if they live), but at these levels the are kind of more like Harry Potter and co. in the early books: still learning their craft, and they are going to fail a fair bit early on.

As for casting spells... well, we too did find that forcing the caster to prep for two rounds was a bit of a drag. I made a houserule that casters could add their spellcasting stat (e.g. Intuition for Channeling users) to any Extraordinary Spell Failure rolls. This made it easier to cast spells faster. Or you could take the RMU solution: just allow casters to cast any spells of their level or below with no prep., and save ESF checks for spells above their level. This will increase the power of casters significantly, but casters in RM2 need it, IMHO.

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 11:57:49 AM »
you start at a generally lower power level: think of a first level character as someone who has just passed adolescence, a young adult. Some people use the phrase 'fantasy Vietnam' to describe the fact that at that level, you are really just an ordinary person-- in fact, you are a young ordinary person.

Excellent point, and to add to that.  They really are just out of adolescence if level 0 is adolescence.  If a player makes an older level 1 PC, say 25 years old, then he's just starting out on his adventuring career because something has moved him to do so, but he's still unwise in the ways of practical combat (sparring and practice is so NOT the same thing as a real world fight.)  The PC's "adventuring experience" is low, therefore the "adventuring skills" are low.

As for casting spells... well, we too did find that forcing the caster to prep for two rounds was a bit of a drag. I made a houserule that casters could add their spellcasting stat (e.g. Intuition for Channeling users) to any Extraordinary Spell Failure rolls. This made it easier to cast spells faster.

That is a great idea.  I think I'm going to allow that in my games now.  It makes good sense.

We have a level 1 caster in our group, and he casts a level 1 electric wispling.  That wispling gets 4 Ti Bash per round and an insane DB (relatively speaking).  Four attacks per round, even at a low OB, is pretty darned good for a level 1 mage vs. level 1 NPC.  I let the player choose if the crit is Impact or Electrical.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline jdale

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 12:13:44 PM »
It's important for characters to develop the critical skills that represent the things they expect they can do. E.g. if a character thinks he should be able to withstand attacks, he better buy Body Development.

But also bear in mind that a player who is buying some random skill is telling you something about how they want to approach problems in the game. If they are coming from a game like D&D with a minimal skill system, they are saying they are interested in doing more with skills. If they prioritize seduction rather than combat skills, they may be saying they want to deal with more problems through roleplay rather than combat. That's not necessarily a bad thing, especially in Rolemaster where combat is deadly. This doesn't mean eliminate all the combat but try to make those other skills relevant.
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Offline Malim

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 02:11:45 PM »
Do a turtorial!
Start by giving them a very simple premade char and do a combat with them, startign with a movement, a bow being fired etc!
Do the same with static action ( out of combat ) pick locks, seduction etc!
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Offline Prince Finnion

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2018, 03:22:02 PM »
The player buying Seduction... is s/he a Romantic?  Dancer?  Houri?

Actually, I think it was the Barbarian, but I made him drop it.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 03:29:10 PM »
The player buying Seduction... is s/he a Romantic?  Dancer?  Houri?

Actually, I think it was the Barbarian, but I made him drop it.

Ahhh yes.....  Conan III - Conan the Seducer!
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2018, 06:44:00 PM »
Actually, I think it was the Barbarian, but I made him drop it.

Boo!

IMO, if characters can't develop any skills outside their core competencies, either they need more DP or the skill list needs to be pared back.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2018, 10:18:00 PM »
Not always. In some cases players (especially those new to RM or coming from D&D) don't develop core skills because they don't think they have to. They just assume (based on past game experience perhaps) that they get hits just because, and that attack rolls are automatically based on their profession and not a skill.

This is why I got to the point where I beefed up culture skills (including weapons) and even did half a character's development for them. That way they could go buy (say) Seduction because I'd already made sure they at least had hits and could swing a sword if that was their profession's main purpose.

Running combat tutorials is also a good idea...if for no other reason than to show new players how fatal RM can be.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 10:33:53 PM »
Not always. In some cases players (especially those new to RM or coming from D&D) don't develop core skills because they don't think they have to. They just assume (based on past game experience perhaps) that they get hits just because, and that attack rolls are automatically based on their profession and not a skill.

This is why I got to the point where I beefed up culture skills (including weapons) and even did half a character's development for them. That way they could go buy (say) Seduction because I'd already made sure they at least had hits and could swing a sword if that was their profession's main purpose.

Running combat tutorials is also a good idea...if for no other reason than to show new players how fatal RM can be.

I'm not denying that it can be hard to cover all bases (the fact that it's easy miss things is a definite flaw in RMSS and in RM2 with the complete optional skill list). However, Prince Finnion didn't say, "I made sure the player had covered his core competencies". The statement was that the barbarian was banned from developing seduction, apparently because it was decided that it is impossible to make an effective barbarian who develops seduction.

If developing one peripheral or non-standard skill means an essential skill has to be left out, there is a major problem somewhere, IMO.

Offline jdale

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 11:19:15 PM »
In the specific case of seduction, I could see not wanting it because I don't want to run the kind of game where that's a big thing. Especially given a somewhat stereotypical (and possibly unfair) idea of what a barbarian adventurer would be using it for.
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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 12:16:53 AM »
In the specific case of seduction, I could see not wanting it because I don't want to run the kind of game where that's a big thing. Especially given a somewhat stereotypical (and possibly unfair) idea of what a barbarian adventurer would be using it for.

Yeah, that's a fair scenario.

Offline Malim

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 06:12:32 AM »
The gamer, Dorkness rising.... Seduction :D

Flynn the Fine: What is that heavenly music?

Priestess: The Hymn to Therin. It calls to our goddess.

Leo: [voice-over] I seduce the priestess!

Lodge: [voice-over] She's taken a vow of celibacy!

Leo: [voice-over] Dude, 20 ranks in seduction!

Flynn the Fine: [to priestess] Hey, baby. Wanna tune my mandolin?

[rolls and the priestess and Flynn leave the room]

Daphne: [to Hierophant] Please understand the horny Bard does not represent us.
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Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Spectre771

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 07:20:25 AM »

I don't think that "banning" skills or "too many" skills is the gist of the thread.  It's not that the barbarian is banned from getting Seduction, but it appears that he was getting seduction at the expense of the core skills, i.e.: no Body Dev or double ranks in primary weapon.  Buying Seduction at, say level 3-4-5, after there has been a little more DP invested in really beefing up the core skills, sure.  By all means, go for it. 

What the OP mentioned in the initial post is a trend that I've seen of a LOT of D&D players coming to RM.  They assume that buying the skill means they automatically get to do it, like buying Cleave, Backstab, Parry, or Magic Missile always hits - no save roll.  It's a completely different game system with completely different mechanics that they don't grasp until they've played several sessions and perhaps made a couple of RM PCs.  Buying 1 rank in Seduction doesn't mean the PC automatically seduces an NPC the way buying Cleave automatically gives double damage... (Or whatever Cleave does)

We don't ban any skills for any player, but I make sure they focus on the core skills that are A) affordable to them due to profession and B) will get an awesome bonus due to stats or background options.  One player had a great archetype made up for an assassin focused on poisons and medical skills, then rolled background options and received +25 to all Adrenals.  Normally, she wouldn't have invested in adrenals, but with +25, it would take fewer ranks to be really decent with them.  She changed her focus from poisons, to being very very fast and strong.

 To this day, no one has ever taken Midwifery!  LOL  It doesn't mean they can't.

I've been playing RM2 since '89.  I have never run into an instance where a player didn't have enough DP to buy the core skills (usually at 2 ranks per level) and not have enough left over for secondary skills to flesh out the PC.  I've had a player with as few as 31 DP per level and there was no issue.  There may have been someone lower than that, but I can't recall.  Just because the skills are listed, doesn't mean you have to buy them.  The player, especially at the lower levels, needs to be a little more focused on core skills before buying lots of "would like to have" skills.

One thing we did to counter this DP/skills/power issue and to help out the spell casters a little more was to start everyone at level 5.  We did that for decades and just this past year, I've gone back to starting everyone at level 1.  With Adolescence level and level 1, it's like they're level 2 facing off against level 1 NPC's so there's a little boost in their favor.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 10:09:30 AM »
RM2 did have a problem with a development point scarcity, especially if you use all the skills in the companions. The system kept adding skills, but didn't give any more points to buy them with (at least not unless you used optional rules). So I can see that being a bit of a problem. I know our group seriously considered some of the optional rules that added extra development points to spend on secondary skills (pretty sure that was in one of the companions; can't remember where though) So that is an option for the OP too: have an extra pool of DP (say 1/4 or 1/2 of what you normally get to spend) that can be spent only on secondary skills. Then the Barbarian can take Seduction as his hobby -- Conan was pretty buff, after all, and could have made good use of those washboard abs.  :)
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 10:21:34 AM »
Conan was pretty buff, after all, and could have made good use of those washboard abs.  :)

"washboard"???

Those were speed bumps!!   ;D

If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Majyk

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 10:50:28 AM »
Malim, +5 to you for quoting “The Gamers” from ZOE!


Very Much Agreed with JDale, base skills and stats are good(at least 1 rank per level), but it definitely gives you a chance to tailor a few side treks to use the skills that they are developing off script.


Likewise, enemy NPCs can be rolled back for stats, too.
As GMs, we tend to see things as power gamers/min-maxers and can do with looking at the wonder and excitement of what made us buy into all the old books in the first place...the extra skills/professions/spells!
Let ‘em go and watch ‘em amaze you.  Too much harping on the combat part of the game - which is also super amazing - and harping on only so-and-so skills, might turn the crew off of the game since you’re making the PCs instead of them...


Good luck and much success with it all, though!  Enjoy it!


Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 12:53:24 PM »
RM2 did have a problem with a development point scarcity, especially if you use all the skills in the companions. The system kept adding skills, but didn't give any more points to buy them with (at least not unless you used optional rules). So I can see that being a bit of a problem. I know our group seriously considered some of the optional rules that added extra development points to spend on secondary skills (pretty sure that was in one of the companions; can't remember where though) So that is an option for the OP too: have an extra pool of DP (say 1/4 or 1/2 of what you normally get to spend) that can be spent only on secondary skills. Then the Barbarian can take Seduction as his hobby -- Conan was pretty buff, after all, and could have made good use of those washboard abs.  :)

It was actually an option in the core rules. I don't remember the percentage right now, but you could award that % or regular DPs which could only be used with Secondary Skills.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Campaign Advise for Noobies
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 02:55:34 PM »
RM2 did have a problem with a development point scarcity, especially if you use all the skills in the companions. The system kept adding skills, but didn't give any more points to buy them with (at least not unless you used optional rules). So I can see that being a bit of a problem. I know our group seriously considered some of the optional rules that added extra development points to spend on secondary skills (pretty sure that was in one of the companions; can't remember where though) So that is an option for the OP too: have an extra pool of DP (say 1/4 or 1/2 of what you normally get to spend) that can be spent only on secondary skills. Then the Barbarian can take Seduction as his hobby -- Conan was pretty buff, after all, and could have made good use of those washboard abs.  :)

It was actually an option in the core rules. I don't remember the percentage right now, but you could award that % or regular DPs which could only be used with Secondary Skills.

I did not know that it was in the core rules; interesting! I just looked and found the page of the red band RM2 edition, and it recommends adding an additional 10 to 25% development points for Secondary Skills. So it is right there in RM2 Character Law (p. 84), as you said, as an option ('A Gamemaster may wish to give characters additional development points to be used solely for the development of secondary skills...').
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle