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Gamer's Corner => General Discussion => Topic started by: Arasuil on November 08, 2015, 04:08:57 PM
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Hi,
Just had a question about one of the MERP books, "Lords of Middle Earth 2: The Dudes." It just strikes me as really odd at how low they have the offensive bonuses for most of the fighters. Anyone here that might have read this one with some insight as to why that is? A good example of this is Elendil, level 60 fighter with an OB of 205. He has a +60 sword (Narsil) and a strength bonus of +40 (ST:103.) At level 60 his per level bonus would be around + 80 I think?
To get to 205 from there he would have to invested 25 points in weapon skills (i.e. 5 ranks.) It just doesn't make sense to me. It's the same with most of the other characters as well; Hurin a level 100 fighter tops out at +275 for his OB.Can anyone think of why they would have done it this way? Is there some sort of OB cap? I know its dated but it's always confused/bothered me.
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you can assume the character's like Elindil have tons of natural talent and magic but little actual skill or rewrite as you see fit.
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In Role Master, if I remember right, there was a cap in that you could only get a total of 30 levels in a skill equaling a bonus of +75 for the skill, then adding in level bonus, stats, etc. After that the only thing that increased were the level bonuses I believe.
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In Role Master, if I remember right, there was a cap in that you could only get a total of 30 levels in a skill equaling a bonus of +75 for the skill, then adding in level bonus, stats, etc. After that the only thing that increased were the level bonuses I believe.
The level bonuses were capped to 20th level for most professions, there was no cap on fighters professional bonus. It was +3/level for the first 20 levels and then +1 after that. I am not aware of any cap on the number of ranks in a skill. In the very first Arms Law I ever had the skill pregression was listed at +5/rank for 1-10, +2/rank for 11-20, +1/rank for 21-30 and+.5/rank thereafter.
That is still the progression in RMC AL&CL for offensive bonus.
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+3 to level 20 became +2 to level 40 then became +1 indefinitely.
there is a master level bonus progression table showing how profession level bonuses were used in the LoME Vol I.
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Just had a question about one of the MERP books, "Lords of Middle Earth 2: The Dudes." It just strikes me as really odd at how low they have the offensive bonuses for most of the fighters. Anyone here that might have read this one with some insight as to why that is? A good example of this is Elendil, level 60 fighter with an OB of 205. He has a +60 sword (Narsil) and a strength bonus of +40 (ST:103.) At level 60 his per level bonus would be around + 80 I think?
To get to 205 from there he would have to invested 25 points in weapon skills (i.e. 5 ranks.) It just doesn't make sense to me. It's the same with most of the other characters as well; Hurin a level 100 fighter tops out at +275 for his OB.Can anyone think of why they would have done it this way? Is there some sort of OB cap? I know its dated but it's always confused/bothered me.
I also always wondered about this. In the end I thought that these numbers were not really calculated based on the RAW and the items they carry. I never found any system in it and finally gave up trying. It's probably best to re-define them somehow, e.g. excluding items or re-calculate them altogether based on what a Fighter in your campaign would realistically have developed. For example, including the rule of +3/lvl to lvl 20 and +1/lvl afterwards, the following calculation might be more realistic: +100 level bonus (60+40), +60 item, +40 stat, +95 skill (60 ranks; a conservative estimate) add up to +295. I'd do that with all stats for all personalities from the LoMe series you plan to include. It's not only in #2 that some bonuses seem a bit odd. I found the same in 'Creatures of Middle-earth' where especially the dragons seem very weak compared to what characters can (and will) achieve in terms of total bonuses already in moderately high levels (lvl 15-20). Thus it might be an idea to check all supposedly very powerful creatures too and scale them up according to which rules and Companions you use.
Perhaps the stats were also based on the RM1 rules without any Companions or additions. I seem to remember that level bonuses were indeed capped at lvl 20 without any further progress. That would make those bonuses a bit more believable (though there are still have gaps).
Cheers
Tolwen
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Well, I've been absent from these forums for over a decade...I don't know why I pick this 2+ year old thread to reply to...but, I am :o
I would put forth that the skills in the LoME books are only skill rank + level bonus. So, for Elendil and his 205bs, that would be +100 for Fighter L60, and +105 for 80ranks in bs. My logic is based upon the other skills listed. Elendil is listed as having a Frenzy of 35. His stat bonuses alone are +35, and it states in LoME that skills without ranks aren't listed. So, to me, that would indicate he has 7 ranks in Frenzy, and the GM is expected to add stat and item bonuses.
Jason
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I also always wondered about this. In the end I thought that these numbers were not really calculated based on the RAW and the items they carry. I never found any system in it and finally gave up trying.
I also can't see a systematic approach they might have taken to get the skills values in the old LoME books. While the values for the elves and Maiar in LoME 1 are quite high, where I thought they must include level bonuses, talents, items etc., in LoME 2 the skill values often seem much too low. Perhaps a different approach for the books has been used, if there was any systematic approach at all.
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I seem to recall MERP kinda sorta had a level cap for players at level 10; or at least that's where the spell lists and character sheets ended.
So anything beyond this was awesome anyways.
The LoME stats were wonky but it didn't matter much because they were basically irrelevant. DSA (The Dark Eye) said it best when they wrote into the manual (paraphrased) "We could give the Dragon stats, but we're not doing it; it'd be pointless because it might cause delusions in your group that they could fight one and win - the rule is that when you're fighting a dragon you're screwed, period."
Oh, and ICE dropped the ball with Tulkas when they assigned him a hefty magic weapon. Tolkien had explicitly described how Tulkas eschewed weapons and fought with his bare fists, to enjoy the fight best. He was a sportsman fighter, not a warrior.
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We had this discussion as well in our gaming group.
We figured that a King, a 60th lvl warrior, just might have tried to bring his other abilities up for the last 30years of his life?
I know that it is not on any basic rules but what if you act like a warrior for your first 30 levels and then more of like... a bard maybe, for the next 30?
And have we ourselves, as men, seen how age affects us?
Strenght and ferocity give room to reasoning and thought?
Character law isn't really really good adapting to aging, arthiritic characters... and for a good reason
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How do you actually swap profession in RM2?
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There was an option in one of the companions (RoCo2 or 3 I think) that allowed for the development of multiple professions. But again, that's an optional rule. But, as JakeM says, maybe your "older more experienced characters" can take on a new life's path after a certain level.
Nightblade ->--
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Yeah, I took Jake's comments to mean more that an old king would probably be spending his Development Points on things like Diplomacy than on weapon skills. He wouldn't so much have changed class as just be spending his DPs on non-combat skills, given that he would be highly unlikely to have to wield a weapon.
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Yeah, I took Jake's comments to mean more that an old king would probably be spending his Development Points on things like Diplomacy than on weapon skills. He wouldn't so much have changed class as just be spending his DPs on non-combat skills, given that he would be highly unlikely to have to wield a weapon.
That may have been the intention of the authors of the LoME books. But OTOH I wonder why the elven kings did not follow the same logic but instead for these characters weapon skills were developed as much as possible every level, even for levels beyond 100. So I think some different logic was applied for LoME 1 vs. LoME 2.
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Terry I think stated that for Shadow World NPCs, particularly high level ones, he tended to just make stuff up rather than follow any rules. Something similar may have been done here.
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That may have been the intention of the authors of the LoME books. But OTOH I wonder why the elven kings did not follow the same logic but instead for these characters weapon skills were developed as much as possible every level, even for levels beyond 100. So I think some different logic was applied for LoME 1 vs. LoME 2.
Yes, I hadn't really noticed that before, but there does seem to be a different logic (or no real logic) applied to some of the characters. My namesake Hurin for example is level 100 with a 275 OB (his stats are 106 St, 102 Ag, +75 axe), but the Elf Angrod (105 St and 104 Ag, +50 flail), at level 95, has a 395 OB. So despite having better stats/items and 5 more levels, Hurin, whom Tolkien himself described as the greatest of the warriors of mortal men, finds himself more than 100 OB behind.
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This part about Lords v.1 was lost in my last post...
Yes, the Elves. Immortality is another thing.
Elves don't get old. They just get better. As long as they want to.
Even of the first Dunadan lived for 500 years. Whats that to an elf. One siege of Angbad. One battle in a history book.
Ingwe has every secondary skill at 300. Does the light of the Valar affect that way. Gives x amount of bonus to all minus stat bonus?
These are legendary characters in all the " Lords ".
Basic rules weren't suppose to apply.
Of the first Glorfindel elf Gandalf said.
"Even with dozen of his like we could not just run down Barad dur."
Really, how about 20 then. It it just the whole might of Mordor.
No, Strenght stats of 111 and 109 for Fingolfinand Feänor...
Agility and presence even higher.
They'd be the Mountain and the Viper of Dorne all in one.
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Yes, I hadn't really noticed that before, but there does seem to be a different logic (or no real logic) applied to some of the characters. My namesake Hurin for example is level 100 with a 275 OB (his stats are 106 St, 102 Ag, +75 axe), but the Elf Angrod (105 St and 104 Ag, +50 flail), at level 95, has a 395 OB. So despite having better stats/items and 5 more levels, Hurin, whom Tolkien himself described as the greatest of the warriors of mortal men, finds himself more than 100 OB behind.
Well, as you wrote yourself, "the greatest of the warriors of mortal men", so I guess you can deduce then that an elf would top him, even with less levels and lower stats. It's the pointy ears, you see? ;)
+275 OB, with 106 St, 102 Ag and a +75 axe? Ok, mayhap my NPC with +285 OB, with 101 St, 101 Ag and +25 double-axe is slightly powerful. :flame:
That being said, 106 St, 102 Ag gives +47 (St/St/Ag = +53/+53/+35) stat bonus, level 100 gives +140 (+3 x 20 +1 x 80) bonus level, for a total of +262 for the stats, level and weapon alone. So Hurin only has three ranks in his weapon? :Joker2:
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IMHO the levels (at least the very high ones) given in LoME 2 are complete crap. If e.g. Hurin were level 40 instead of level 100 then his OB (and most likely also other skills listed in the book) would probably match the level better and be in line with the stats of elves in LoME 1. And given the much longer lifespan of the elves it would make sense - at least to me - that elves may reach levels beyond 100 while human NPCs usually only reach levels up to 40.
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And given the much longer lifespan of the elves it would make sense - at least to me - that elves may reach levels beyond 100 while human NPCs usually only reach levels up to 40.
Yes, sounds reasonable.
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That being said, 106 St, 102 Ag gives +47 (St/St/Ag = +53/+53/+35) stat bonus, level 100 gives +140 (+3 x 20 +1 x 80) bonus level, for a total of +262 for the stats, level and weapon alone. So Hurin only has three ranks in his weapon? :Joker2:
Good point. The humans are definitely getting the short end of the fighting stick here.
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+275 OB, with 106 St, 102 Ag and a +75 axe? Ok, mayhap my NPC with +285 OB, with 101 St, 101 Ag and +25 double-axe is slightly powerful. :flame:
That being said, 106 St, 102 Ag gives +47 (St/St/Ag = +53/+53/+35) stat bonus, level 100 gives +140 (+3 x 20 +1 x 80) bonus level, for a total of +262 for the stats, level and weapon alone. So Hurin only has three ranks in his weapon? :Joker2:
...or, as with my Elendil example above. +140 for level 100, +135 for 140 skill ranks in 'ba' is the 275 OB, and the GM is expected to add in the +47 for stats and +75 for battle ax, resulting in an actual 397 OB.
These books are stacked with stats, and Lotus 1-2-3 wasn't released until '83, Excel until '85. LoME I was published in '85. It wouldn't be shocking to me that shortcuts were taken so they didn't wear there pencil fingers out ;)
Jason
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...or, as with my Elendil example above. +140 for level 100, +135 for 140 skill ranks in 'ba' is the 275 OB, and the GM is expected to add in the +47 for stats and +75 for battle ax, resulting in an actual 397 OB.
Except that, in the case of Angrod, these stat and weapon bonuses seem to have been added? Inconsistency or Elf favorism?
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I haven't looked through the immortals book recently, but...wouldn't be surprised if they were calculated differently. For the mannish examples, it seems to play out better the way I'm putting forth...so, right or wrong, it seems like the easiest 'fix' if a fix is needed.
Jason
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We had this discussion as well in our gaming group.
We figured that a King, a 60th lvl warrior, just might have tried to bring his other abilities up for the last 30years of his life?
I concur...if a person were to rebuild stats of these legendary heroes, a good start would be to outline level advancement during the various phases of the heroes life, and build the skills accordingly. If a warrior fought in continual wars from 14 to 44, his abilities may be primarily combat-related without any real depth anywhere else. But, if he has multiple time periods spent at peace in which he goes back to the farm...different focus on skills developed. Elected/placed in a bureaucratic position...whole new batch of skills.
Jason
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Yup an old thread……… but so tasty
Facts: There is a huge different between LOME I&II in terms of character with similar profession and level, not explainable with the mechanics of the games
Comments:
• Yes I agree that a King /leader not necessarily will have developed his martial skill to the highest level, but the same (indeed perhaps to a greater extent) is true for Elves ( they are so...... philosophic)
• Elves lives for thousand of years, but most of the Super OB Elves in LOMEI spent a huge part of their lives in Valinor, where real fight & battle experience was not existant. I can imagine (and I have done, to develop my background for weapon style in M.E) they spent time in sword play or similar exercise but I can assure that light sparring and heavy sparring change a lot of things related to your progression in combat sport (and I can imagine to a greater extent in a fight where you risk your life)
• Hurin was the greatest human warrior in Tolkien works and he have only an OB of 275. One can argue that there was a difference in skill between man and elves, but remember that Turin became the warlord of Nargothrond (commanding other elves) and Hurin slew 70 trolls of Gothmog bodyguard. I think their military skill exceed that of many elves, surpassed only by the most exalted princes of Caliquendi
• With a 275 BO both Turin and Hurin are lower than Elves of secondary importance and with a difference of (in some case) more than 200 points to elves of same level. With this difference, in terms of Rolemaster mechanics they are quite useless, if I figure some scenes of Silmarilon in which they fight side by side with elves (Turin & Beleg, Tuor in the fall of Gondolin etc..)
• Earendil (half elves) at 100 LVL got an OB of 440 with longbow.
My conclusion is that the OB of LOME II in case of high level man (>40) are not calculated and reflect an assumption that I don’t find in the Silmarilion up to this extent ( elves>>>>> man in any field; also with weapons).
In comparison OB of LOMEI are quite in agreement with RM mechanics and fit an “optimized fighter” (2rank per level, profession bonus) level for level in many case.
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Interesting research!