Author Topic: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D  (Read 5226 times)

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Offline Elton Robb

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Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« on: February 24, 2011, 07:33:16 PM »
Really, Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D.  In Rolemaster you add and subtract whole numbers.  In D&D you use percentage math to figure your Power Attack.

A post crossposted about the changes to power attack in Pathfinder:

"The answer to your question is: power gamers who are not calculating -1,+2 but rather something like this:

Assume +5BAB STR10 using Longsword vs AC15

No Power attack: 55% hit chance equates to 2.475 avg dmg (.55*4.5)
-1: 50%, 3.25 (.5*6.5)
-2: 45%, 3.825 (.45*8.5)
-3: 40%, 4.2 (.4*10.5)
-4: 35%, 4.375 (.35*12.5)
-5: 30%, 4.35 (.3*14.5)

In the above example, taking a negative 4 to hit and adding 8 to dmg gives the best average per swing so is the proper choice if your sitting doing the calculations.

Really, this is suppose to be roleplaying... not math101.
Yes, I know you need more than 10STR for power attack...just simplying the process for ease of understanding (normally you'ld have a STR bonus and magic items to figure into the equation)."

-- Praetor Gradivus

The thread is here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfinderRPGBeta/feedback/alpha1/skillsFeats/whyWerePowerAttackAndCombatExpertiseChanged

I was surprised that D&D was bordering on Algebra.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 08:48:05 PM »
Interesting.  I had never considered RM math to be overly difficult; being basically % based and also my being fond of money I think it is more intuitive for me ;)

D&D uses smaller numbers; I think that the real ease of use is in the perception & the to hit system.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 10:29:18 PM »
Nothong easier than DnD to hit system.  Whadda I need, a 24 or better (roll)...

Thats what I wanna see for RM in the future.  roll to hit;

88+ A crit
103+ B crit
123+ C crit
137+ D crit
148+ E crit.

Armor will mod the target numbers, which the GM will deal with.  As an example, lets say the above weapon is a dagger and is attacking a foe in magic chain; add 20 to all to hit numbers.

All damage, hits and stun, and penalties to activity are listed on the crit result.

SAME system as now, no tables, easier appearance.

So, some brave soul needs to fully flesh out the basic system and play test it.  ANy volunteers?
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Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 11:15:48 PM »
It would work as a house rule. :D
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 11:33:42 PM »
I actually have been commenting that D&D really is not any easier than RM in most respects for years.  People perceive it as complicated because they did not 'grow up' (i.e. cut their teeth) on Rolemaster.

If you spent your first however many years playing Rolemaster and then had a friend try to get you to play the newer versions of D&D you would think D&D was quite difficult too... simply cause you don't know how to play it already.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 09:04:29 AM »
I already use a to hit rule.  50+DB+/-Armour Mods= TN    Size + 1hit/2 successes (amour reduces damage by AT/2) every 10 HP is a Crit level.  So, Attack vs 50+15-5(Armour Penalty)= TN 60 character rolls 120 = +60/5=12+5 (Base Weapon Damage)-7(AT 13) =  10 & an A Crit.  I am using this with low-level characters right now, so as they get better it could get outta hand.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 09:05:49 AM »
After having written this out I could probably use the whole AT & just reduce the attack by it....alla Harp...
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2011, 09:40:20 AM »
DnD is not simple.  The to hit mechanic is.

RM uses the same mechanic, but as is the systems design, stages the level of success with A thru E crits.

What is not needed is the all the extra filler that the tables represent.  Executing the RM combat mechanic could be meade much cleaner.

I hope no one misunderstands how much I like RM.  It is my rpg of choice.  On the other hand, I know life is about change and learning and will not shirk from it.  Considering how different each of my fellow posters home games seem to be, I don't think they do either.  Yet tradition is no reason to keep something just for the sake of tradition, particularly when the traditional approach seems to be failing.  What do i mean by failing?

Two big hobby shops around here: Riders and Cobble Stone.  Neither has any RM materials.  The game boards do not list a single RM game recruiting.  I can tell you, just 10 years ago, this was not the case.  With Grand Valley State, Hope College, Albion, Calvin and several other colleges in the area, I can easily find a GAME, but not RM, and typically, none of the youth have heard of it. 

Gamer geeks have not changed over the years.  We still go to the local hobby store and puruse the shelves for whats new, buy the occassional card, board, war and rpg to take home and check out, have a few freinds over to give it a try, learn the rules and see if it fires up the inmagination.

RM's critical system does a GREAT job of firing up the imagination.  The charts are a bit tedious, the crits are wonderful.  Simplify how to generate crits and focus on the criticals.

Imagine an entire new way to classify the crits.  Light wounds, medium wounds and severe wounds for slash crush and puncture.  The weapon determines if the wound delivered is light, medium or severe.  Gone are the one size fits all slash, crush and puncture crit tables.

Whatever.  As long as the result is simplier attack resolution, be that through a Ten Million Ways to Die type of attack table (ala MERP) or an entire new target number system, the change should be fairly radical yet maintain the core mechanic of progressive damage/success.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 01:18:14 PM »
A TN system can be applied using the Crit charts for a d20 system.  It shouldn't be too hard to think up.
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Offline smug

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 03:03:25 PM »
You don't have to do that calculation for Power Attack in 3.x and, in fact, players are liable to get irritated with their fellows if they do.

In Pathfinder, in any case, Power Attack is a fixed penalty and bonus combo, so the comparison is with a dead game (inasmuch as a game where nearly all of the core rules are Open Content is ever dead).

Doing a similar calculation in Rolemaster might be simpler, but deciding which weapon to use makes it much more mathematically complicated. Thus, as in 3.5ed D&D, most people don't bother and just play their characters.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 08:19:50 AM »
Agreed
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011, 10:02:02 AM »

Thats what I wanna see for RM in the future.  roll to hit;

88+ A crit
103+ B crit
123+ C crit
137+ D crit
148+ E crit.

Armor will mod the target numbers, which the GM will deal with.  As an example, lets say the above weapon is a dagger and is attacking a foe in magic chain; add 20 to all to hit numbers.

All damage, hits and stun, and penalties to activity are listed on the crit result.

SAME system as now, no tables, easier appearance.

So, some brave soul needs to fully flesh out the basic system and play test it.  ANy volunteers?
If you are going to simplify it, then smooth the Crit breaks.. better for memory and calculation.

80+ A, 100+ B, 120+ = C, 140+ = D and 160+ = E

However, I suspect that you will end up simplify things by losing the charts but end up with multiple modifiers being added back for the weapon type and the armour. This WILL end up causing the same confusion that arose in AD&D*, will take just as long as looking up a result on a chart and end up losing some of the realism that the charts provide.

Personally I think that having a chart per weapon is actually simpler to use. If you want to speed it up, give each of the players a weapon chart for each of thier characters weapons and then let them deal/help with it.

*where each roll had different modifiers applied to different armour and weapon types, which is exactly what the RM system already does. 

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 10:45:58 AM »
After having written this out I could probably use the whole AT & just reduce the attack by it....alla Harp...
Yeah, I was gonna say..... ::)

For RM, I had already adopted the +50 DB bonus to reflect a base difficulty (and to make it a little more survivable), it didn't seem to cause problems.

But, I do like the HARP mechanic, particularly the Hack & Slash, where it is all in one roll. I much, much prefer that. That method is the only method I like when having armor affect a character's defense, in regards it gives them a better "armor class". It actually shows the affect with lesser damage and crits. Otherwise the D&D approach is silly, imo. I am likely to grant everyone a base DB of 30 or so, because when you take into consideration that an attack gets an average of 55 points more than just whatever OB they decide to use, it makes attacks quite a bit more effective than defense. At least, that is the way I see it.
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Offline cyberfranck

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2017, 08:55:01 AM »
Really, Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D.  In Rolemaster you add and subtract whole numbers.  In D&D you use percentage math to figure your Power Attack.

A post crossposted about the changes to power attack in Pathfinder:

"The answer to your question is: power gamers who are not calculating -1,+2 but rather something like this:

Assume +5BAB STR10 using Longsword vs AC15

No Power attack: 55% hit chance equates to 2.475 avg dmg (.55*4.5)
-1: 50%, 3.25 (.5*6.5)
-2: 45%, 3.825 (.45*8.5)
-3: 40%, 4.2 (.4*10.5)
-4: 35%, 4.375 (.35*12.5)
-5: 30%, 4.35 (.3*14.5)

In the above example, taking a negative 4 to hit and adding 8 to dmg gives the best average per swing so is the proper choice if your sitting doing the calculations.

Really, this is suppose to be roleplaying... not math101.
Yes, I know you need more than 10STR for power attack...just simplying the process for ease of understanding (normally you'ld have a STR bonus and magic items to figure into the equation)."

-- Praetor Gradivus

The thread is here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfinderRPGBeta/feedback/alpha1/skillsFeats/whyWerePowerAttackAndCombatExpertiseChanged

I was surprised that D&D was bordering on Algebra.

 I have never seens a player calculating percentage in D&D, pathfinder maybe that another world.
Even power attack user use the simple formula of -1 to hit = +X to damage (1, 1.5 or 2 depending on weapon), maximum BAB penalty possible

+10 BAD, str 18 (+4), Longsword 1d8

power attack 5 = D20 + 10 - 5 to hit and 1D8 + 4 + 5 damage, on crit 2 X (1D8 + 4 + 5)
power attack 7 = D20 + 10 - 7 to hit and 1D8 + 4 + 7 damage, on crit 2 X (1D8 + 4 + 7)


Offline jdale

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
What's difficult about power attack is not calculating the result (which is a simple penalty to the attack and a bonus to damage), but deciding when and how much to use (since you can dedicate as much or as little of your to hit bonus as you want). Thus we have, for example, https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/ to calculate what you should be doing, but a calculator is not needed for the outcome.

The closest parallel to that in RM is Parry, since you are also reducing your chance to hit in order to gain a different benefit. There is likewise an optimal amount of Parry to use, to minimize the chance of being hit with a critical but still leaving enough OB for a successful attack. In practice, though, the player generally doesn't have enough information to actually calculate this (at least the way we play) so it's more of a seat-of-your-pants kind of judgment call.

That said, I don't know that it's an important enough point to reincarnate a six and a half year old thread....
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Offline cyberfranck

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2017, 09:56:03 AM »
That said, I don't know that it's an important enough point to reincarnate a six and a half year old thread....

Didn't look at the date. It showed up in my "Show unread posts since last visit." and i havent visited since a week and half ago So i assumed it was very recent.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2017, 07:15:12 PM »
Quote
That said, I don't know that it's an important enough point to reincarnate a six and a half year old thread....
What's wrong with reincarnating six and a half year old threads?
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Rolemaster uses simpler math than D&D
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 06:41:04 AM »
Its still relevant- as I am here looking for ideas to bridge the gap to attract new players!
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