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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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how long do spells take to cast?
« on: November 29, 2017, 12:30:01 AM »
how long do spells take to cast?

instants?
self healing?
spells with range touch?
area effect spells?

Offline Peter R

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 02:40:23 AM »
how long do spells take to cast?

instants?
self healing?
spells with range touch?
area effect spells?

Instant spells are cast instantly but it takes time for the caster to reorient to the real world. There are optional rules (in RMC) about how much time that is. I use the 10% activity is lost, but the spell is already in effect.

All the others I think are even more open to interpretation. I do not see prep time as casting as the caster could back out at any time and not lose the PP. In my world the actual casting takes no significant time at all, it is like flicking a switch to turn on a light or opening a valve on a hosepipe. The caster is still engaged for the round but that is more about control rather than the actual casting.
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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 04:48:13 AM »
If we're talking about activity percentages, I use the RMSS defaults:
  • Instant spells 10%
  • Other spells 75%
  • Preparation 90%

For item use, I use:
  • Activate rune: 90%
  • At will/command word: 10%
  • Other instant spells: 20%
  • Other spells: 80%

I also use the standard RMSS rules on number of prep rounds required and the associated SCSM mods.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 06:12:12 AM »
There are also Class I, II, III spells that take rounds of preparation to cast.  During the spell prep rounds, activity is limited as well.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 10:18:47 AM »
It depends on which edition of RM you play too.

Instantaneous spells originally cost more than 10% to cast in RM2: the default rule was that they restricted you to 25% of your action that turn, meaning the instantaneous spell essentially took about 7.5 seconds worth of your 10 seconds of action per turn to cast. There was an optional rule that it only took 50%. Normal spells always took 75% action (so about 7.5 seconds), while preparation took 90% (about 9 seconds).

In RMU, they take literally 0 time if they are the first instantaneous action taken per turn; you still get your full 4 AP to spend on other things for the rest of the round. They take 1 AP (roughly 1.25 seconds) if they are not your first instantaneous action that turn. Normal spells (non-instantaneous) cost 4 AP (about 5 seconds worth of action), but you can also reduce that time by up to 2 AP if you want to cast the spell quickly and take a minus to your Spell Casting Roll. Preparation only requires concentration, which means you can do other things, but any other things you do cost twice as many AP as they normally would. For most rounds, this will mean that concentration essentially costs 2 AP, or 2.5 seconds worth of action for every 5 second round.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 10:22:38 AM »
SL definitely says that instants are instant and that the penalty was about refocusing yourself after that casting.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 11:04:51 AM »
SL definitely says that instants are instant and that the penalty was about refocusing yourself after that casting.

My version of Spell Law (red band RM2, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell') says 'Note that certain spells are instantaneous in effect and do not require preparation.' [Italics mine]. I'm not sure exactly how to read that, but I have taken it to mean that once cast (i.e. in their appropriate phase), their effects take hold immediately (i.e. for all subsequent phases, including movement), and that they require no preparation, but not necessarily that they take no time to cast. SL does specify that casters are still reduced 25% action after casting an instantaneous spell. But maybe I am wrong. Can you point to anywhere in SL where this is clarified? It does seem odd that the spell's effects are instant but that the caster has to spend 75% of the round casting it.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 01:01:12 PM »
so instant spells require preparation just like other spells?
class1, class2 and class3 are different?

spells like bladeturn must have zero prep to work right? or is there still prep and the spell is 'stored' until its needed?

Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 02:16:29 PM »
so instant spells require preparation just like other spells?
class1, class2 and class3 are different?

No, instant spells do not require preparation. But my interpretation was that they still take some time to cast. Casting and preparation are different. Preparation is when you prepare a spell in a round before you can cast it, in a round when the spell will not resolve. Casting it on the other hand occurs in the round when the spell resolves. All spells take time to cast, but not all require preparation. The ones that don't require preparation are called instantaneous.

On a side note, I think part of the confusion here is the use of the word 'instantaneous' itself. I think a better word would be 'Quick'. Instantaneous implies no time at all, but it sure seems like even an 'instantaneous' spell requires some time to cast. The same applies to actions RMU calls 'instantaneous': they sometimes cost an action point, or about 1.25 seconds. So the confusion here I think would be solved if we renamed 'instantaneous' to 'quick'.

Quote
spells like bladeturn must have zero prep to work right? or is there still prep and the spell is 'stored' until its needed?

Yes, Bladeturn is an instantaneous spell: it requires no preparation. Beyond that, things probably get a little fuzzy I think: Bladeturn has been one of those spells people argued about because it could be interpreted to have an infinite duration (i.e. till someone attacks you), since the duration was IIRC never specified in the original Spell Law. Some people argued it should only last for a round, others that it would last longer. I think there was an official ruling about this, but can't remember what exactly it said about the duration. I don't know what RMSS did to handle that, but I think RMU should give a set duration to clear that up.

Here is the description of the Deflections spell (which works in the same way as Bladeturn) in RMU beta:

"Caster can deflect any one missile that the caster can see and which passes within the 100' range of this spell; this causes 100 to be subtracted from the missile’s attack."

Here is how I would word it (additions in italics):

"Caster can deflect any one missile that the caster can see and which passes within the 100' range of this spell during the round in which the spell was cast; the spell effect causes 100 to be subtracted from the missile’s attack."
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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 02:52:39 PM »
."Instant" is a measure of casting time/preparation required.

"Instantaneous" is a measure of duration.

A lightning bolt is instantaneous (the effects are immediate once cast, and the bolt then vanishes, it doesn't continue to inflict further damage), but it is not an instant spell, and follows the normal rules for spell preparation.

Instant spells are marked with an asterisk beside the spell name. Instantaneous spells are marked with a dash for duration.

Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 05:37:14 PM »
I'm not entirely sure that is true. The original description in RM2 spell law of the asterisk you see beside spells is this:

* -- Instantaneous; spell doesn't require preparation

That description certainly seems to suggest that 'Instantaneous' means a spell doesn't require prep, rather than that its effect is fleeting. RMU further specifies this:

* — Instantaneous; spell does not require preparation and takes only 10% activity to cast

Thus Lesser Trap (Ranger Base: Survival's Way) has a duration of 'P' (permanent), but an asterisk indicating that it is 'instantaneous', which seems to mean that it does not require preparation, rather than its duration is '-'.

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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2017, 06:00:06 PM »
Ok, that's strange. Where did I get that idea from? It's not in RMFRP either. I'm going to have to check my RM2 and RMSS books later.

Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2017, 08:50:21 PM »
RM2 leaves the whole matter rather murky, and if someone can show me other places where it is specified, I will happily admit I am wrong. But I don't think it is ever clarified any more.

I think the problem that you can see in RM2 is that the word 'cast' is used in two different ways: to refer to the entire process of preparing for multiple rounds and then resolving the spell; and just for resolving the spell. Spell law actually uses it in both these sense at once in that section on p. 12 of spell law. On the left column, they say 'The time required to cast a spell will be described in terms of rounds'. Here they clearly mean 'cast' to include preparation for multiple rounds. But then on the right column when they start talking about the round in which the spell is cast, they use 'cast' solely in the sense of resolving the spell: 'On the round of the spell effect (i.e. when it is actually 'cast' or 'thrown') a caster may operate at 25% effectiveness (which means he may not cast another spell).'

Obviously, this needs to be clarified. I think 'cast' should refer only to the process of resolving the spell on the round when it takes effect. If you are not resolving it on the current round, you are not casting; you are preparing.

I like your suggestion Sable of using 'instantaneous' to refer to a duration. To eliminate confusion between duration and casting time, I think it would be better to use a different designation for casting time, which is why I suggested something like 'quick'.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2017, 09:13:28 PM »
If it is any help, note that Magic: the Gathering had a similar issue. They now distinguish between 'casting' and 'resolving' a spell.

It isn't perhaps the best language, but it might be best to say that preparing is what you do on the rounds when the spell will not resolve; resolving is what you do on the round the spell will have its effect; and casting refers to the entire process of preparing and resolving.
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Offline jdale

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2017, 11:17:02 PM »
In both RMSS and RMU, casting takes a round or less (75% in RMSS, 2-4 AP in RMU, reduced substantially more in both editions for instant spells). Preparation rounds are not required in either RMSS or RMU, but you may suffer some pretty steep penalties for forgoing preparation especially in RMSS. In any case, Preparation is a separate action from Casting. Preparation doesn't commit you to casting the spell.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 01:26:02 AM »
SL definitely says that instants are instant and that the penalty was about refocusing yourself after that casting.

My version of Spell Law (red band RM2, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell') says 'Note that certain spells are instantaneous in effect and do not require preparation.' [Italics mine]. I'm not sure exactly how to read that, but I have taken it to mean that once cast (i.e. in their appropriate phase), their effects take hold immediately (i.e. for all subsequent phases, including movement), and that they require no preparation, but not necessarily that they take no time to cast. SL does specify that casters are still reduced 25% action after casting an instantaneous spell. But maybe I am wrong. Can you point to anywhere in SL where this is clarified? It does seem odd that the spell's effects are instant but that the caster has to spend 75% of the round casting it.

You are quite right, I had mis-remembered the actual wording.
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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 02:09:17 AM »
Aha. In RM2 Spell Law, a duration of "--" is defined as Instantaneous, even though in this context it has nothing to do with what we typically refer to as Instantaneous spells.

I recall that this caused me some confusion early on, and for a short while I was treating spells with an Instantaneous duration as Instantaneous casting time.

RMSS changed the definition of "Duration: --" to "no duration", most likely to avoid just such confusion.

At some point, I must have started referring to the casting time as Instant and the duration as Instantaneous to limit confusion.

Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 11:08:33 AM »
Well, RM2 definitely did muddy the waters, so if it has been corrected in RMSS, then that is good; and I definitely like the way RMU tries to be consistent in its use of terminology, and keeps 'casting' separate from 'preparation'.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2017, 12:01:13 PM »
Confusion and complexity.
imo the rules for spell casting remain a glaring weakness in rolemaster.
RMSS uses classI-III spells which is very restrictive at low levels and even at slightly higher levels.
has anyone created some house rules for spells to simplify the casting of them?

Offline Hurin

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Re: how long do spells take to cast?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2017, 12:40:55 PM »
Confusion and complexity.
imo the rules for spell casting remain a glaring weakness in rolemaster.
RMSS uses classI-III spells which is very restrictive at low levels and even at slightly higher levels.
has anyone created some house rules for spells to simplify the casting of them?

I had a house rule in RM2 that the caster's stat for the realm (e.g. Empathy for Essence) was applied to any ESF rolls. This made it easier and faster to cast spells in general.

RMU essentially just does away with the classes of spells and allows characters to cast spells of their own level or less without preparation. Spells higher than the caster's level still require preparation or suffer a penalty. I now prefer this to my old houserule way of doing it in RM2.
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