Author Topic: How does subduing work in your campaign?  (Read 2462 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 537
  • OIC Points +0/-0
How does subduing work in your campaign?
« on: January 10, 2018, 04:32:55 PM »
How does subduing work in your campaign?

static action? i have been giving them an RR vs the skill rank. do you give the target their DB? seems like you should, unless its a surprise subdue.

Offline Sable Wyvern

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2018, 06:39:09 PM »
RMSS does this well. A normal attack, with OB limited to your Subdual skill. Substitute a Subdual critical for the usual crit type.

Alternately, use Sweeps with Grapple crits.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2018, 10:17:08 PM »
I've never been entirely happy with the way subdual works, but I'm not really convinced the RMSS solution is a good one. I'm looking right now at the RMU Subdual critical charts -- which I assume is similar to the RMSS one -- and there are some things I don't like about it. Most of the results are not incapacitating: they are things like breaking a thumb or ankle, or just doing damage. On the other hand, there are quite a few permanent paralysis and outright death results.

Neither of these are what I want in a Subdual skill.

When I think of Subdual, I think of the Vulcan nerve pinch: something that incapacitates but does not harm. Most of the results on the Subdual critical either harm or fail to incapacitate, and some outright kill the target. That seems very different from the Subdual skill in RM2.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Sable Wyvern

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 10:41:35 PM »
I'm of the opposite position. I find the idea that you can use blunt force to render someone unconscious without a significant risk of inflicting actual injury to be quite ridiculous.

As I recall, there are something like three lethal results on the RMSS tables. I'll take a closer look tonight. Certainly, if you want a reliable take-down, you want a hefty suprise/rear/flank bonus to help ensure an E-crit and a good chance of a once shot incapacitation, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 11:18:06 PM »
For a surprise Subdual attack, you can modify the critical roll using your Ambush skill ranks. That should increase the chance of incapacitation, and decrease the chance of accidental death, since Ambush can modify the result in either direction as needed.

Without the element of surprise, I agree with Sable Wyvern that a knock-out without doing any real damage is going to be very difficult.

RMSS subdual is fatal on B 96-99 and E 96-99 (so 0.8% across all severities), two week coma on C 100 and one month on D 96-99. The RMU table is more lethal, with death on B 98-99, C 96-97, D 91-95, D 100, E 86-90, and E 98-99 (3.2% across all severities). Too lethal?
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 12:36:25 AM »
For a surprise Subdual attack, you can modify the critical roll using your Ambush skill ranks. That should increase the chance of incapacitation, and decrease the chance of accidental death, since Ambush can modify the result in either direction as needed.

Without the element of surprise, I agree with Sable Wyvern that a knock-out without doing any real damage is going to be very difficult.

The element of surprise was necessary in order to attempt a Subdual attack, at least in RM2. The language of the skill made that clear: 'In order to use this skill, the character must approach the foe undetected and be able to strike before the latter can react.' So you always had the element of surprise... or else you couldn't attempt a subdual.

Quote
RMSS subdual is fatal on B 96-99 and E 96-99 (so 0.8% across all severities), two week coma on C 100 and one month on D 96-99. The RMU table is more lethal, with death on B 98-99, C 96-97, D 91-95, D 100, E 86-90, and E 98-99 (3.2% across all severities). Too lethal?


Yes. I would say that any lethality -- in a skill that was never in any way lethal in RM2 -- would be too much.

The skill was never about cracking bones and crushing vital organs. We get enough of that in all the other critical charts. This was a skill that offered an alternative to all that. To give it a critical chart that makes it crack bones and crush vital organs is kind of missing the whole point of the skill.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 537
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 04:06:45 AM »
so you need to surprise them to use subdue. that means sneaking up behind them while they are distracted or hiding in the shadows as they walk past. im ok with that. it allows two players to work toegther, on distracting the opponent while the other subdues them.
im of the opinion the attack should not deal dmg but incapacitate them. i dont use weapons tables at all (using the super fast combat system from RMCIII). I see this form of attack as an alternative to damaging attacks but i still think the target should be able to shrug off the attack, thats why i am using an RR vs the defenders level. Using a blunt weapon such as a blackjack or even a club would give the subdue and added +10 success or something like that. If they were wearing armour i might also add a negative modifier to the chance of success.

Offline Sable Wyvern

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 06:09:06 AM »
The skill was never about cracking bones and crushing vital organs. We get enough of that in all the other critical charts. This was a skill that offered an alternative to all that. To give it a critical chart that makes it crack bones and crush vital organs is kind of missing the whole point of the skill.

On the other hand, I feel that the original implementation is in conflict with the entire design philosophy of RM. There is no safe way to use blunt force to incapacitate someone, and the RMSS method is far more in keeping with the way subdual actually works.

So, IMO, it doesn't so much miss the point as acknowledge that the original skill was flawed, and it remains an effective, less-lethal take-down option.

Of course, if you prefer a more cinematic, safe subdual, feel free to carry on. You should do whatever works at your table.

Offline Dragonking11

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 06:21:43 AM »
On the other hand, I feel that the original implementation is in conflict with the entire design philosophy of RM. There is no safe way to use blunt force to incapacitate someone, and the RMSS method is far more in keeping with the way subdual actually works.

I personaly agree with Sable here ... There is always risks when subduing someone ... We all have heard real stories (newspaper or whatever) that someone gave a punch at the face on somebody else ... and the guy at the receiving hand died even if the punch seemed pretty much harmless

Those cases are rare indeed ... maybe they happen 0.8% of the time like jdale said  :D

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 09:47:10 AM »
Now I tend to agree with Hurin, this is a game that tries to emulate the adventures of fantasy film and fiction and knocking out goons with a single blow from behind is a staple of that genre. The RM2 subdual skill added that feature to the game. The RMSS/RMU version seems not add anything to the game that a club + ambush would not achieve.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 09:57:49 AM »
The RMU and RMSS approach is more flexible in that you can use it without surprise. It's not perfectly safe, but you can use it to reduce the chance of a killing blow or inflicting bleeding damage. If you also have surprise and at least 4 ranks in Ambush (1 rank in RMSS), it's safe.

Without subdual, a club + ambush is much more likely to cause a killing blow. The only unconsciousness result on the RMSS Krush table is B 95-99, which results in a two week coma, but only if they have no helm (if they have a helm, they're not even unconscious). Basically, without subdual you have to do a ton of concussion hits without accidentally getting any death results.

How did it work in RM2?
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 10:01:58 AM »
Sable, I admit you have a point that this trope of knocking out the bad guys is somewhat unrealistic. In reality of course, one does really risk harming someone when one tries to knock them out from behind with a club. So I just wanted to make clear I'm not disputing the realism argument. My point is just that the stealth incapacitation from behind has become a trope in movies and literature and games, from Star Trek to pretty much any fantasy movie or cop show you can think off. And I like the way Subdual filled that niche. It offered an alternative to breaking bones and crushing organs, opening up the possibility of a non-violent or less violent resolution, and giving the characters options beyond 'kill all the guards'. So for me, to just change the skill into rolling on a critical table that looks a lot like all the other critical tables doesn't add much to the game; it seems to me to subtract more than it adds.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 10:05:45 AM »

How did it work in RM2?

From what I remember, you had to approach the target unawares and be able to strike before the target could react. You then rolled skill check, with 101+ being success. If your roll was a success, the target made an RR, with the attack level being the attacker's skill level. Failure rendered the target immobile or unconscious.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,384
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 07:28:44 AM »
We use Subduing skill in our RM2 game.  Roll the Subduing OB on whatever attack table the weapon would fall under, and resolve all crits on the Stun Crit Table.  Sadly, there is still a chance of accidentally killing your target. :D 



Inigo Montoya: Where is the Man in Black?

[the Albino doesn't answer]

Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, jog his memory.

Fezzik: [Fezzik strikes the Albino so hard it knocks him out] Sorry, Inigo. I didn't mean to jog him so hard.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 10:05:46 AM »
I definitely like the Stun table better than the subdual table. It has a far smaller chance of killing (like basically only 100 on an E critical), and results in high numbers of stun rounds. The only thing I would like to see added to the Stun table is specification of whether the target can still speak/shout, since usually subdual is used to take out guards without raising an alarm.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 537
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 10:28:26 PM »
I definitely like the Stun table better than the subdual table. It has a far smaller chance of killing (like basically only 100 on an E critical), and results in high numbers of stun rounds. The only thing I would like to see added to the Stun table is specification of whether the target can still speak/shout, since usually subdual is used to take out guards without raising an alarm.

for silent take downs i use silent kill after the subdual attack succeeds. make a second roll using silent kill.

Offline Sable Wyvern

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 03:46:54 AM »
for silent take downs i use silent kill after the subdual attack succeeds. make a second roll using silent kill.

Yes, that's exactly what the skill was designed for, although I don't actually use Silent Kill, I use an Ambush static manoeuvre. This, of course, presumes the conditions for an ambush attack were actually met.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How does subduing work in your campaign?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2018, 10:16:55 AM »
Ah, good advice! That works well then.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle