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Author Topic: How does dual wielding work  (Read 136 times)

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Offline Jakob

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How does dual wielding work
« on: February 12, 2018, 12:11:15 PM »
Questions regarding the dual wielding maneuver skill:

It mentions Weapon Categories; however, as far as I can see, there are only weapon groups, weapon classes and individual weapons; what would a category be? The same as class?

Also, it mentions that the weapons to be wielded must both be the Primary weapons in their category (class?). Does this mean that it is impossible to dual-wield two different weapons from the same class (since only one can be the primary)? So, no fighting with two axes or two types of short sword?

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 09:58:24 PM »
Paired Weapons (ML)
Shielding Weapon (ML)
Two Weapon Combo (Core)

The weapon class is a large group many categories (groups) belong to, for example 1-Handed Edged covers Axes, Short Blades, Long Blades, and Thrusting Blades weapon groups. As far as I know, the only time you need to care what weapon class a weapon belongs to is for using a weapon in a group that belongs to that class provided you have skill in another group in that class (the lower of 1/4 your skill in the group you do have skill in, or +25). Even then, that only applies to the 1-Handed Concussion and Edged classes.

For wielding two of the same, you want the Paired Weapons skill for whatever weapon you're using paired. Your skill in the group the weapon belongs to must be at least 1.5 times your rank in Paired Weapons (whatever) or else you can't use it. Use of paired weapons modifies a successful Paired Weapons critical in a few ways:
*Hits: doubled
*Stun: +1
*Bleed: +1
*Death in xx Rounds: Halved (Round up)
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Offline Jakob

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 07:15:04 AM »
Thanks!

So weapon category (as it is called in the Two Weapon Combo skill) is the same as weapon class? Would make sense.

So there are basically two different skills for dual wielding with two different weapons (from two different classes - Two Weapon Combo) and for dual wielding with two weapons of the same Kind (or of the same class?) - which would be Paired Weapons? And the latter (the one from ML) doesn't give extra attacks, but modifies the criticals on a succesful attack?

It just seems counterintuitive that you can't use Two Weapon Combo with, e.g., a short sword and a dagger, since both are in the same weapon class, and only one of the two weapons can be the primary weapon of its class.

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 01:59:14 PM »
Thanks!

So weapon category (as it is called in the Two Weapon Combo skill) is the same as weapon class? Would make sense.

Think of "Class" as a "Group of Groups", and "Category = Group".

Quote
So there are basically two different skills for dual wielding with two different weapons (from two different classes - Two Weapon Combo) and for dual wielding with two weapons of the same Kind (or of the same class?) - which would be Paired Weapons? And the latter (the one from ML) doesn't give extra attacks, but modifies the criticals on a succesful attack?

It just seems counterintuitive that you can't use Two Weapon Combo with, e.g., a short sword and a dagger, since both are in the same weapon class, and only one of the two weapons can be the primary weapon of its class.

I can certainly understand how you'd read it that way. Let me give you an anecdote. I was a member of a theatrical combat troupe called "The Ring of Steel" for roughly five years. The first live steel weapon we learned was the rapier, using cut and thrust moves. After certifying that choreography, the next weapon I learned was rapier & dagger. While both weapons were used for both attacks and parries, you did not do two attacks at the same time you parried with one of your weapons. Basically, we were switching back and forth between Shielding Weapon (Rapier & Dagger), Two Weapon Combo (Rapier & Dagger), and Short Blades (as HARP doesn't have a Combat Style to represent dual wielding while using a larger weapon as the shielding weapon).

Shielding Weapon gives you a DB bonus of up to half your rank in it (max +50), and if one of the weapons in the pair has a DB Bonus, you get to add that too. It also requires that both weapon groups have a rank of at least your rank in Shielding Weapon (x & y).

So by HARP's rules, Ring of Steel was cheating by 1. using the rapier as the parrying weapon sometimes, and 2. not having a separate dagger form (although knife fighting training and short swords may count).

HARP has both the options of refocusing your weapon and taking Multiple Weapon Proficiency.

In summary, best to think of it as trading off between two attacks (or a single attack in the case of paired weapons), and using a weapon as a shield while attacking with the other.

The Duelist Training Package in Martial Law gives equal ranks in Two Weapon Combo and Shielding Weapon, heavily implying they're intended to be the same pair.
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Offline Jakob

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 02:15:43 AM »
To be honest, I still don't get whether it is possible RAW to wield two weapons from the same class (say short sword and dagger) with Two Weapon Combo ... the way I understand it, that would kind of unbalance things, because if you have to learn just one weapon class (like light blades) that encompasses both weapons in addition to Two Weapon Combo, then you'd get the ability to dual-wield for two attacks significantly cheaper in terms of DP. So I guess it is intended that both weapons must come from different classes. (something that also seems to be implied by the need for both weapons to be primary weapons - the way I read it, you can have only one primary weapon in each class; you can change which one is the primary, but then the other one becomes one of the secondaries. Maybe one could allow to take Multiple Subskill proficiency for Weapon skills, although it is not quite clear whether the weapons are considered subskills and whether removing the penalty would turn a weapon into a primary weapon.)

I was just thinking that maybe there is a workaround? requiring double the skill rank in the weapon skill doesn't work because of skill caps; however, you could probably allow a character to learn, e.g., short sword and dagger as separate skills to allow them to combine through Two-Weapon Combo. That's probably how I would rule it.

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 09:08:21 AM »
If you buy Multiple Weapon Proficiency, you can have two or more "Primary" weapons in the same group. Refocusing makes you change Primary weapon. Hope that helps.
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Offline Jakob

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 09:12:27 AM »
If you buy Multiple Weapon Proficiency, you can have two or more "Primary" weapons in the same group. Refocusing makes you change Primary weapon. Hope that helps.

Yes, I think that was actually the missing piece - with that, it all seems to make sense! So that's probably a Talent from ML? I can't find it in the core book.

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 09:21:39 AM »
Pretty sure Multiple Weapon Proficiency talent is in Both HARP Fantasy and SF core.
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Offline ImaginosMusic

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 09:30:13 PM »
I did not find anything in the HARP fantasy in the talents. In the skills chapter, under Combat Styles & maneuvers, there is Two Weapon Combo. That is on page 41 of the PDF.

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 06:30:23 AM »
Regarding physical books, I misremembered, it's in Martial Law in my printed books. There was an update to the PDF of HARP Fantasy in April of 2017, I think that's where I'm getting the idea Multiple Weapon Proficiency is in HARP Fantasy core.
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Offline Jakob

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Re: How does dual wielding work
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 07:27:39 AM »
Regarding physical books, I misremembered, it's in Martial Law in my printed books. There was an update to the PDF of HARP Fantasy in April of 2017, I think that's where I'm getting the idea Multiple Weapon Proficiency is in HARP Fantasy core.

I don't think that it is in the update, either - I bought a POD copy two weeks ago, and that should be based on the updated files I would expect ...

Anyway, doesn't really matter - it's not like I desperately need these bits of rules right now, I was just curious whether I understood everything correctly.

 

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