Topic: New player question: invincible rats!

[intothatdarkness]

I've always been a fan of phases, but that's in part because I do a lot of modified RM gaming (I use it for Western and spy settings). Phases are the only real way to simulate fire and maneuver training without burdening players with it. Of course, for modern I also use a shorter round.

[Hurin]

Much of it depends on how you're using the combat system, honestly. I did a fair amount of adjusting to the character creation rules to make first level more viable, but still weak enough to give players a reasonable challenge while they learned the rules.

For the fire scenario, I'd likely use a simply maneuver roll with the character's Agility bonus for the throw. We suck with the Phase-based combat system, so the character going for the torch would be able to get to it and snatch it from the wall (if it was solidly attached, your Strength idea is a good one, but I'd likely make it a pretty easy roll). I tried to keep throwing random objects away from skills. Once the torch was thrown, unless there was a compelling plot reason to check I'd likely just let it set off the oil and drive the rats off. Sometimes discretion is better than rolling...at least in my games. I'd look at it is a reward for the players coming up with an innovative solution to a problem.

I think I'm gonna give the 'Second by second' combat mechanics a go from Companion VI. They seem to be the most straight forward and intuitive of all those I've read so far and as such should be simple enough to teach to my players. For my practice game above I used the RM2 standard rules and it just didn't seem right somehow — too much like Advanced Squad Leader, a game I like but nevertheless can be virtually impossible to teach.

I'm not sure if you know, but the latest version of Rolemaster, RMU (which is still in the beta phase; you can download it on these forums), uses more of a second-by-second round, somewhat similar to the system in Companion VI.

I loved ASL too by the way.

[bpowell]

It can be daunting, Cinderman, but that is also the great strength of the game: your players can do anything they want.

In regards to throwing the oil flask, Spacemaster actually had well developed rules for throwing grenades, which is quite similar. They made it a static maneuver with the throw grenades skill (which I would say is equivalent to the 'Thrown' weapon skill in RM2). So I would have the character make a maneuver with their Thrown skill, with a result of 101+ meaning they hit their target area. Less than 101 means it is off target, and the lower the result the further off target it is. In such cases, Spacemaster made the player roll a d6 (for direction), indicating the direction the throw was off target. Then you also rolled to see how far off target you were.

As for the damage, you might use the spells in spell law as a model for how much damage the fire does. You might for example say that every creature in the area that has been lit on fire takes an 'A' or 'B' fire critical. You could also roll an attack on the Fireball table instead.

I would also use a throw skill check to see if you hit the target (rats),  And one there I would allow anything that starts a fire to start it on fire.  If you are throwing a torch, that would also take a throwing test.  But just pushing a burning torch into the spilled oil would be a static maneuver.  I would allow the fire to spread at about 25% per minute.  I would look, I am pretty sure there is a damage inn the woodfires spell which would give damage for the fire.

-BP

[Spectre771]

Arms Law and Claw Law (red band edition of RM2, stock #1100), p. 15. Note at the bottom of chart 8.2.7, it says that 'Modifications are cumulative unless noted otherwise'; the only ones that are not cumulative are the ones with asterisks beside them. It is a terribly confusing way to express it, and has tripped up a lot of people over the years; but I'm quite sure it has been confirmed that this means a rear attack is supposed to be +35, and a surprise rear attack +55.

Thank you sir.  I can guarantee this is where the mess up is.

[Ecthelion]

So we made a Fighter and a Wizard, all good, that went smoothly enough I think:

Fighter lvl1 — DB19, OB33, wielding a broad sword
Wizard lvl1 — DB0, OB16, wielding a mace

These characters look rather weak and - at least for the Fighter, which I looked up in the rules - are even weaker than the NPC characters that can be found in the book (there the Fighter has 35 OB and 30 DB). Did you do the level advancement for adolescence plus level 1?

Some ideas to improve the game (some have been mentioned before):
-Use the Hobby skills ranks optional rule (RM2 Character Law, section 13.4.2). Using the broad sword skill as primary hobby would add 4 more ranks and thus 20 OB.
-Use the Background Options optional rule to improve the characters via Background Options. A nice item or a special bonus at level 1 really helps.
-Use a shield. A Full Shields adds +25 to DB. Even the mage might use a Target Shield for an additional +20 DB vs. melee.
-Make sure to have good St, Ag & Qu for you melee fighters because these stats affect OB & DB.
-Armor is very helpful against animal attacks. AT 1 is a mess against animal attacks.
-Don't put you mage into the front row if he is wearing AT 1, has a tiny OB and little to no DB.
-The mage might want to use a Sleep V spell to put some rats to sleep instead of trying to hit them with his mace.
-Since the animal attacks tables are quite powerful you might want to use goblins or orcs (stats can be found in Arms & Claw Law) using normal weapons instead of animals as first opponents.

RM2 makes some assumptions that you may not be aware of:

1. Low level characters are notoriously weak in Rolemaster (it has a grittier and less heroic beginning than say Dungeons and Dragons), and level 1 characters are not really fully matured yet. They are barely out of adolescence. So they are intentionally weak.

The RM2 rules AFAIK do not state something like this. And I'd rather doubt that level 1 means the character is "barely out of adolescence" because in RM2 a player twice develops ranks for a level 1 character, once for the adolescence phase - and if the character were barely out of adolescence we'd stop there - and then for level 1.
Also typical fighters listed in the old MERP modules have around 50-60 DB and 30 DB at level 1 so that they can be used against creatures like 2nd to 3rd level orcs or so that can be found in the modules. And the notes say the stats can be used for MERP and RM(2) alike.

2. The best weapon to attack the rats with might be Martial Arts: Strikes. It starts to get hits and criticals at relatively low results. While your characters are poor at weapons, then, they might be better just stomping the rats.

This may in fact be true but IMHO this also means that there is some flaw in the rules. Because this is rather counter-intuitive and players won't find something like this in most other games.

[ciderman9000000]

See attached a picture of our lvl1 Fighter's character sheet.

[Spectre771]

These characters look rather weak and - at least for the Fighter, which I looked up in the rules - are even weaker than the NPC characters that can be found in the book (there the Fighter has 35 OB and 30 DB). Did you do the level advancement for adolescence plus level 1?

This is a good point that I didn't notice in the original post; What Armour Types are your PC's wearing?  Just plain old clothes, AT4 is good to have.  It's readily available for any PC.  AT1 is very light clothes, nearly rags, almost zero protection while AT-4 is at least heavier clothing.  If you are playing a strict currency game where players have to purchase their armour, then AT4 is good to go.  If you're starting out your players out with a little gold, then they should be able to purchase some type of armor before they go out adventuring an in the world.  We always joked that AT-12 was the "Armour of the Gods" as it was the best all around protection with very little penalties, readily available, and very affordable.  Our GM's would always applaud when a PC took something other than AT 12!

Shields, even a little target shield is better than 0-DB bonus.

Are your Prime Requisites AT LEAST 90?  You can get two "free" 90's for the Prime Req's if you wanted to.

Use the background options!!!!  They are awesome!  At the very least, try a roll on the "Magical Items" table and try for a +5 magical weapon or armour.    Roll really well and you can snag some really nice items to start out the game.  For Fighter types, I always rolled once on the Skill at Magic chart, and for Mages, I always rolled once on the Skill at Arms chart!  It's an excellent way to add a little flavor to a PC and to balance out the skills.  A Fighter who can cast a Daily I spell?  Awesome!  A mage who has a +25 to Quickness?  SCORE!  Better DB!

These are all in the core books and RMC-I and RMC-II.  There are plenty of options in those books to allow for a lot of creative freedom without letting the game get unmanageable.

[Spectre771]

Thanks for the reply, Spectre, much appreciated.

I've a query with regard to your oil/spark/fire suggestion: how exactly would that come to pass, in terms of ruling, during a combat situation?

Let's assume my fighter had an oil flask and there was a lit torch on the wall, say:

—Throwing the flask at the rats: would this be a movement maneuver? Agility based?
—Grabbing the torch: a movement action (to the torch) followed by a static maneuver to remove it from the wall? Strength based perhaps?
—Throwing the torch: same as the flask above? Is there a skill for throwing random objects?

In our games......

We used a simplified Initiative system and did away with phases.  Roll D100 open-ended.  Add QU bonus.  +/- any modifiers.  Highest Initiative goes first, then so on.

In this scenario, all of our players have the Basic Adventurer's kit which has 2 flasks of oil.  The fighter would spend a round getting the flask out and open, ready to throw, while parrying at 50% since half the action is trying to get the oil ready.

2nd round, fighter makes a Throw skill check (Throwing is a skill in RMC-II).  Aiming for a swarm of rats, make the throw attack.  (Just to make sure the fighter doesn't fumble and spill the oil on himself.)  The MM Table can be used here.  A particularly good roll hits lots of rats, a poor throw, the rats scatter or the oil falls shorts and spills on the floor.  Still a good thing though... maybe.

In the mean time, the Mage can grab the torch and get ready to throw it on her turn.

Oil ignites, rats covered in oil catch fire.  How many rats?  roll D10 and see how many.  Maybe give a bonus if the Fighter's Throwing skill was really good. 

1st round of fire, A-Heat crit for rats that were coated with oil.
2nd round of fire, see which rats flee in fear... see if rat on fire still burns or fire goes out.  I would give 50% chance.... if still burning, another A-Heat crit or a B-Heat Crit.



*** - Just a side bar. I'm really happy and excited to see players are still picking up RM2 and giving it a go.  This is a great testament to one of the very few games that I absolutely love.  V:tM is up there too for how well it is written and how 'realistic' it feels.  RM2 feels 'realistic' yet offers so much freedom.  So again I say, "Welcome to the RM2 family!"     Just don't fall into the trap of "all the rules from all the books have to be used."  They aren't.  They're OPTIONAL rules meant to be added or to REPLACE rules or to be skipped over completely.  Read it through, if you like, discuss with the players and add it.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

This is a good point that I didn't notice in the original post; What Armour Types are your PC's wearing?  Just plain old clothes, AT4 is good to have.  It's readily available for any PC.  AT1 is very light clothes, nearly rags, almost zero protection while AT-4 is at least heavier clothing.  If you are playing a strict currency game where players have to purchase their armour, then AT4 is good to go.  If you're starting out your players out with a little gold, then they should be able to purchase some type of armor before they go out adventuring an in the world.  We always joked that AT-12 was the "Armour of the Gods" as it was the best all around protection with very little penalties, readily available, and very affordable.

Neither AT4 nor AT12 are normally available armour types, though. It's "impossible" to get them without the help of magic, and probably not one available to level 1 characters. As written in the Ch&CL, "armor type 3, 4, 11 and 12 are animal armors, natural body coverings with no armor equivalents. One cannot achieve such an AT without acquiring some enchanted and specially designed armor."

Our GM's would always applaud when a PC took something other than AT 12!

He should just make them as unavailable as they're supposed to be, thus incredibly rare enough than most of his PCs wouldn't be able to find any.

[Hurin]

There are many downloadable/online character sheets available on this website Cinderman, if you want to use them; it might help keep track of the character. See here:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat50

In regards to Exhaustion Points, you seem to be using them correctly, but this is one rule that many people just ignore. It involves a lot of bookkeeping that probably isn't necessary.

[Spectre771]

This is a good point that I didn't notice in the original post; What Armour Types are your PC's wearing?  Just plain old clothes, AT4 is good to have.  It's readily available for any PC.  AT1 is very light clothes, nearly rags, almost zero protection while AT-4 is at least heavier clothing.  If you are playing a strict currency game where players have to purchase their armour, then AT4 is good to go.  If you're starting out your players out with a little gold, then they should be able to purchase some type of armor before they go out adventuring an in the world.  We always joked that AT-12 was the "Armour of the Gods" as it was the best all around protection with very little penalties, readily available, and very affordable.

Neither AT4 nor AT12 are normally available armour types, though. It's "impossible" to get them without the help of magic, and probably not one available to level 1 characters. As written in the Ch&CL, "armor type 3, 4, 11 and 12 are animal armors, natural body coverings with no armor equivalents. One cannot achieve such an AT without acquiring some enchanted and specially designed armor."

Our GM's would always applaud when a PC took something other than AT 12!

He should just make them as unavailable as they're supposed to be, thus incredibly rare enough than most of his PCs wouldn't be able to find any.

We let the PC's purchase them from the larger cities with good traders or they were handed down through the generations of adventurers in their families, or they "found it" because their background option roll on Magic Items Chart gave it to them.  We had plenty of ways to "reason" out why the starting PC had the armour.  The descriptions of the five armour classes in AL&CL didn't allude to anything about PC restrictions.  IIRC, AT-12 was rigid/boiled leather reinforced with ribbing, or something similar.  If someone has AL&CL handy, please feel free to post. I'll check when I get home.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

We let the PC's purchase them from the larger cities with good traders or they were handed down through the generations of adventurers in their families, or they "found it" because their background option roll on Magic Items Chart gave it to them.  We had plenty of ways to "reason" out why the starting PC had the armour.  The descriptions of the five armour classes in AL&CL didn't allude to anything about PC restrictions.  IIRC, AT-12 was rigid/boiled leather reinforced with ribbing, or something similar.  If someone has AL&CL handy, please feel free to post. I'll check when I get home.

*sighs*
Did you even read what I posted? As I quoted, "As written in the Ch&CL, "armor type 3, 4, 11 and 12 are animal armors, natural body coverings with no armor equivalents. One cannot achieve such an AT without acquiring some enchanted and specially designed armor."" So, no, AT-12 isn't any kind of armor at all. It does NOT have any armor equivalent. As such, you shouldn't be able to "purchase them from the larger cities with good traders" because they should be very very rare, since "enchanted and specially designed". Now, if every time you roll for magical items, get armors, and get an AT12, and your GM allows so (or makes them common items), he shouldn't "rejoice" when someone chooses an AT other than AT12...

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Oh wait, I've just realized: so, you're telling us that, because the information is missing from AL&CL, even though it's present in Ch&CL, you chose to ignore it, made easily available an AT type that isn't even supposed to be an actual armor, then wondered why everyone wants it and even rejoiced when someone does not want it?
Oh, and, just a note, it's just so rare than in both tables of the C&T p71, Type I and II armors, there's only ONE AT12, rolling a 91 on the Type II armor table and getting a dragonskin armor, and, even then, as clarified in the Type II armor descriptions p74, when you get this dragonskin armor, you have to roll another die and roll a 01-25. If using these tables, your PCs always get an AT12 and your GM always allows it, well... I don't know what to add.

[Ecthelion]

See attached a picture of our lvl1 Fighter's character sheet.

Well, it looks like you are using neither the Hobby Skills rule nor Background Options. This is perfectly ok, because both are optional rules. But, with the problems you encountered, I'd strongly suggest to use these rules. Also the character is not using a shield, which IMO he'd better equip. Stat assignment looks fine to me.

Just my 2 cents

[Justin]

3)  Spellcasters are not fighters, as evidenced by the 16OB.  At PC creation, you get "Level 0" and "Level 1", that's two levels of development.

But if I know my RM2 correctly, when one spends DP what you are really doing is committing to what you are studying/practicing. The next time you level/whatever that is when you get the actual bonuses from those DP.

[Ecthelion]

3)  Spellcasters are not fighters, as evidenced by the 16OB.  At PC creation, you get "Level 0" and "Level 1", that's two levels of development.

But if I know my RM2 correctly, when one spends DP what you are really doing is committing to what you are studying/practicing. The next time you level/whatever that is when you get the actual bonuses from those DP.

It would be great if you could give a reference for this in the RM2 rules. Because IMO a character immediately benefits from the ranks developed in a new level.

[Hurin]

See sections 3.2.1 (p. 40) and 5.3 (p. 61) of the red band Character Law book. The idea is that upon advancing to each new level, you not only see your skills go up, but you also get and must immediately spend the DP for the next level skills (you start to train in them), even though the skills themselves don't increase until you hit the next level.

However, level 1 characters do enjoy the rank increases from level 0 and level 1, because level 0 characters got DP to assign before they hit level 0. Strictly speaking, the process should look like this:

1. Start a new character
2. Get a level's worth of DP, and assign them all to specific skills.
3. Raise character to level 0, raise the skills accordingly. E.g. A fighter who bought two ranks in Broadsword now gets those two ranks, for a +10 rank bonus to the skill. The most ranks he could have (short of culture) is 2 at this point.
4. Get and assign DP for level 1.
5. Raise character to level 1, and raise skills accordingly. The Fighter might now have as many as 4 ranks in Broadsword.
6. Get and assign DP for level 2. The Fighter has thus begun training in these skills, but he won't actually get the increases in the skill ranks until he hits level 2.

This process is almost always shortened with people just assigning and raising their skills for levels 0 and 1 at the same time (steps 1-5). Also, people often skip step 6 (assigning skills for the next level), and just assign them when they actually achieve the next level. But strictly speaking, you are supposed to pick your skills for level 2 as soon as you hit level 1.

In any case, a first level character does indeed benefit from two levels of advancement.

[Spectre771]

sighs*
Did you even read what I posted? As I quoted, "As written in the Ch&CL, "armor type 3, 4, 11 and 12 are animal armors, natural body coverings with no armor equivalents. One cannot achieve such an AT without acquiring some enchanted and specially designed armor."" So, no, AT-12 isn't any kind of armor at all. It does NOT have any armor equivalent. As such, you shouldn't be able to "purchase them from the larger cities with good traders" because they should be very very rare, since "enchanted and specially designed". Now, if every time you roll for magical items, get armors, and get an AT12, and your GM allows so (or makes them common items), he shouldn't "rejoice" when someone chooses an AT other than AT12...

Siiiigh.   <---  look, I can condescending in a friendly forum just like you.

I read what was written in AL&CL (pp.10-11) and from what I have used first hand in Martial Arts.

"Rigid Leather base.  Rigid leather armour and the rigid hide covering of creature <sp> like certain reptiles and of fantastic creatures such as dragons." pg. 11

Look ^ Rigid Leather armour AAAAAAAAND the rigid hide covering of a creature.  Not "ONLY the rigid hide covering of a creature but ALSO the rigid hide."

"AT 11: Half hide plate.  Rigid leather armour that covers the body completely, AND the hide of certain creatures that contain at least a few rigid plates." pg. 11

Note the use of the word "AND" in the sentence.  This means that rigid leather exists and can be used, it doesn't have to be magical, just cured in a manner to make it harder.

"AT 12: Full hide plate. As half hide plate above except that the rigid leather or plates are harder and/or more plentiful." pg. 11

"AT 4: Heavy hide. The natural hide of certain classes of animals both normal and unusual." pg. 10

Wait.... I bet you're going to tell me that no one in the history of fighting made a protective cloak out of a bear or lion hide to cover themselves for just a little bit of protection.  No nomadic hunters like say ummmm..... the Huns, used the pelts and hides of animals as protective cover?  That would make it AT4 and since that's not possible, the Huns must have been magical to have come up with that armour type

Samurai armour was boiled leather, rigid leather armour.  I've worn it for Kendo (rigid leather pieces, NOT Samurai armour), I've practiced in it, and have sparred against it.  I have seen it and touched it.  It's not magical, mythical, or beyond the realm of possibility to have but it's extremely light and takes a beating.  It's just leather armour that's been cured and molded to be tougher.

Hard leather/rigid leather/boiled leather, was used in feudal Japan CENTURIES AGO.  Nothing magical or mystical about it.

You may not have heard of Samurai I take it.  There's even a History Channel special on how 'ancient' armours were made. 

Simply put, AT 11 and 12 are rigid leather which is leather that can be made stronger through non-magical means.  There is nothing special about it that makes it so a level 1 PC can't have it.  Leather is plentiful and easily worked and cured.  AT4 is heavy hides. Nomads have worn heavy hides for protection before there was written word.

Oh wait, I've just realized: so, you're telling us that, because the information is missing from AL&CL, even though it's present in Ch&CL, you chose to ignore it, made easily available an AT type that isn't even supposed to be an actual armor, then wondered why everyone wants it and even rejoiced when someone does not want it?
Oh, and, just a note, it's just so rare than in both tables of the C&T p71, Type I and II armors, there's only ONE AT12, rolling a 91 on the Type II armor table and getting a dragonskin armor, and, even then, as clarified in the Type II armor descriptions p74, when you get this dragonskin armor, you have to roll another die and roll a 01-25. If using these tables, your PCs always get an AT12 and your GM always allows it, well... I don't know what to add.

Oh wait, I've just realized: so, you're telling us that, because the information is missing in Chl&CaL, even though it's present in AL&CL, you chose to ignore it.  I bet you're going to choose to ignore the examples of the Huns and Samurai and their armour that I've given.  I would have gladly discussed this with you in private messages, but since you chose the tone and lousy attitude and to make direct attacks at me here, I'll respond in kind here.  You took a simple comment that was said in jest (GM's would rejoice when we would take different armour) and turned it into a giant personal attack.  Pretty much all of our PC's had different armour by the time they hit Level 5 because they quested for and found better armour and of differing types.

I don't recall having any interaction with you other than this forum and not even in Private Messages, but for whatever reason, I've pissed you off.  So I'll apologize now, publically, for having pissed you off.

[Ecthelion]

Spectre771, even though AT 3, 4, 11 and 12 could theoretically be available for players, we always assumed that it was not available simply through normal means because of the description mentioning animal hides (even though, for AT 11 and 12, it mentions armor "and" animal hides) plus there is no price listed for these three armor types anywhere in the official RM books.

YMMV

[ciderman9000000]

I've heard that Olf Le Fol's mum wears AT4 armour.