Author Topic: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?  (Read 3528 times)

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« on: December 18, 2016, 12:07:32 PM »
Making up dice rolls or Dice Fudging. We have all done it but how much is too much?

I am talking about GMs who 'fudge' dice rolls for the sake of the story. You know, that 'secret' roll behind the DMs screen that isnt shown to the players. Be it a critical roll or a skill check or an attack roll. I would suggest that without some occasional fudging the pcs would all wind up dead very quickly.

Or are you a 'let the dice decide your fate' sort of GM??

Offline Hurin

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 01:27:05 PM »
100% 'let the dice decide' DM here.

There was an article a little while back on the DnD website that actually told DMs to fudge the dice whenever they wanted. I absolutely hated that. I like to give my players an appropriate challenge and then let them either succeed by good play and good luck or die by bad play and bad luck. If the dice are loaded, sooner or later smart players start to realize it, and then the game just kind of degenerates into a 'DM may I' scenario, in which some players just try to get into the DM's good books because they know that the dice have become more or less meaningless. That's just our group though.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 01:43:13 PM »
100% 'let the dice decide' DM here.

There was an article a little while back on the DnD website that actually told DMs to fudge the dice whenever they wanted. I absolutely hated that. I like to give my players an appropriate challenge and then let them either succeed by good play and good luck or die by bad play and bad luck. If the dice are loaded, sooner or later smart players start to realize it, and then the game just kind of degenerates into a 'DM may I' scenario, in which some players just try to get into the DM's good books because they know that the dice have become more or less meaningless. That's just our group though.

I am more of a "use sparingly if at all" or "do it only rarely or when you think its REALLY needed" sort of DM but i can see how this sort of thing could be easily abused by both DMs and players who like you say try to get in the DMs good books or apply subtle pressure (sometimes less than subtle) to get the GM to influence a dice roll in their favour.

a sort of middle ground option that ive used before is Fate Points where you give a player one or two chances per game session where they can reroll a dice roll. in D&D games i have seen it is called advantage or Hero Points. It can take the sting out of an unlucky roll and i think this is a good idea. Provided you tell your players what house rules you are using beforehand its all good. As the GM you know whats going on in terms of level of danger so you can adjust the Fate Points up or down depending on the scenario.

I sometimes struggle with the ambiguity of awarding Advantage Points like this but as a general rule of thumb reward the actions of your players that you want to see more of eg. great roleplaying, clever/innovative problem solving, exceptional heroism in the face of danger, that sort of thing.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 02:18:18 PM »
I rarely fudge rolls. Most modern systems I play have fate points (or some version thereof), so that helps. I also found that if you scale your adventures appropriately you don't have to fudge rolls much, or at all.
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Offline jdale

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 02:24:36 PM »
I don't like PCs to die. But I'm trying to move myself to fate points and take it out of my hands.

All other types of failure and success can be left to the dice without hesitation.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 02:36:47 PM »
I rarely fudge rolls. Most modern systems I play have fate points (or some version thereof), so that helps. I also found that if you scale your adventures appropriately you don't have to fudge rolls much, or at all.

any lowly NPC or monster is capable of a lucky critical strike and a killing crit rolled by The GM, even if you have scaled your adventure appropriately.

Offline Warl

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 02:47:20 PM »
the players have their "fate points" to use to save themselves if they wish. My story is not so important to the game to deem cheating needed.
Let the dice fall where they may and the story will tell itself.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 03:23:48 PM »
I don't fudge the dice or use fate points. I have given the party a couple of lifegiving options though. One scroll and a single dose of a herb. Who lives or dies is in the parties hands and they know I will not pull punches.

If you die then it is your turn to make the tea.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2016, 10:35:24 PM »
We use Inspiration dice (extra chance to reroll) when we play 5th edition DnD, and I like them. IIRC, they can only be used by players for their own rolls; they can't force an enemy to reroll an attack on them. I'm thinking of using them for my next RM campaign, since they would not be able to save anyone from a 00 critical, but they can be used to reward good RPing or smart decisions in a less determinative way.

For those of you who use fate points in RM: how specifically do you use them? I think we've talked about this before, but I always like to hear more options.
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Offline juza

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2016, 04:35:41 AM »
Normally I don't fudge the dice I, as Master, roll but I use fate points. Sometimes I'm tempted to fudge my player's rolls, they are so unlucky!

Offline Frabby

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 05:19:47 AM »
In our group there is the understanding that the GM, by definition, cannot "fudge" sind he and his narrative *is* the rules.

Personally, as a GM I do roll a lot of things in secret simply because the players must not know how well they rolled. This is especially true for perception skill rolls, but also for many lore or even language skill rolls where ignorance is the key.

In combat, rolls are usually made open for all to see. Here, we have the understanding that, in our main campaign, a character shield mechanism applies by which the GM is expected to give all characters a fighting chance to avert death, to the point of altering crit results at a whim. We have found maiming to work much better than outright killing. It helps a bit to keep power creep down if the party has to use up resources and call in favors to save or heal a criticlly wounded comrade, and several characters have sufferend permanent injury resulting in things like reduction to their potential stats, permanent negative maneuver bonus, or receiving negative traits from Character Law.

We have played in alternate settings or campaigns where a strict "no character shields" rule was in place. It's also fun, but makes for a much different game with many more random deaths. It works if clearly communicated by the GM beforehand, and if the campaign doesn't rely on the same characters seeing it through.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 05:53:08 AM »
No fudging. If I need a certain outcome I don't roll the dice. And if it's criticals or so against the PCs then we're using Fate Points to avert unlucky rolls.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2016, 10:40:20 AM »
100% 'let the dice decide' DM here.

There was an article a little while back on the DnD website that actually told DMs to fudge the dice whenever they wanted. I absolutely hated that.

I would hate that too!   If you are encouraged to fudge the dice whenever you want to, then why bother rolling dice?  Just dictate the flow of the story as you see fit.  Yes, that's an extreme example, but then it's really just story time at that point.

I'm 99% no fudging and I stick to that pretty well now that there are Fate Points that all my players get at PC creation.  (1d4/2 Fate Points)  If it's a new player and the monster gets a lucky crit on the player's first day playing the game, I won't kill the player's PC off.  I used to fudge rolls in the player's favor up until their first level-up, after that, all gloves were off.  If it's a well seasoned player then it doesn't impact me as much as someone still learning the game.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2016, 11:30:34 AM »
So, let's say my character starts the game with 1 fate point. This I assume allows me to use it to negate a mortal critical whenever I want. A few questions though for those of you who use them:
--Do I ever get more fate points? And if so, how?
--Has anyone ever tried allowing players to buy fate points with Development Points? I was just thinking this might be another way to balance it, as it puts a real penalty (in the form of Dev points) on taking mortal criticals while still allowing characters to avoid random deaths.
--Are there any specific rules for fate points in any Rolemaster material? If not, from where are people getting the idea of fate points?

Personally, we tend to like the possibility of random deaths, as it adds an apparent sense of realism to our games. But I'm open to trying new stuff.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline B Hanson

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2016, 12:40:02 PM »
I like the development point idea--have to ponder it. We've tied in Fate Points to the particular God that the PC has chosen. They get 1-4 (again, depends on the diety) at lvl 1 and then can get more as various rewards from there God. So when used it's through divine intervention rather than just a hand wave explanation and use of a point.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2016, 01:39:24 PM »
I seem to have a memory of if you force the GM to use a fate point to save the big bad boss baddie then you get that fate point. If you use a fate point the the person who caused you to use it gains the point so there is a finite number of points in the game and they pretty much ebb and flow between GM and PC's.

I cannot remember where I got that from though. It/they are not something I use.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2016, 02:54:38 PM »

I cannot remember where I got that from though. It/they are not something I use.

I definitely heard it on these forums in one of the discussions we had on it. I'm just not sure where the idea originated; I am guessing it is from a different system than RM? I'm not sure though.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 03:05:55 PM »

I cannot remember where I got that from though. It/they are not something I use.

I definitely heard it on these forums in one of the discussions we had on it. I'm just not sure where the idea originated; I am guessing it is from a different system than RM? I'm not sure though.

sounds like a house rule?

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2016, 04:30:23 PM »
I seem to have a memory of if you force the GM to use a fate point to save the big bad boss baddie then you get that fate point. If you use a fate point the the person who caused you to use it gains the point so there is a finite number of points in the game and they pretty much ebb and flow between GM and PC's.

I cannot remember where I got that from though. It/they are not something I use.
It's from the official Fate Point rules in RMSS Channeling Companion, p. 44.

Offline Warl

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Re: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2016, 09:46:18 PM »
in RM2 Comapnion III page 34 Under "Luck" option 2 was used as 1 method.  This method was slightly revisited in companion VI (page 28) to suggest using Empathy as the "Luck" Stat instead of adding another stat.

I could have sworn there was a "Fate" system in RM2 besides the Luck ones, But I could not locate it. even though I recall my First RM Gm using this fate system before RMSS was ever a thing.


I myself have my own system derived and modified from another game system. I am sure I posted it in a similar discussion a while ago. But here it is again.

Quote
<b>Honor, Karma, Respect</b> is how your character is viewed by the world/Universe at large.
Fitting into the "Role" the Universe and You Have chosen.

Honor is earned by Several Means.

Firstly, You will be rated on several Categories.

#1 Alignment
Alignment runs along 2 axis Good/Evil and Law/Chaos.
there is neutral ground between each axis for Grey area.
Law represents in a Belief that society needs laws and order to achieve it's Goals and that ones society or organization is more important than the individual. Chaos represents the belief in freedom of the Individual and that the individual is more important than the Society or organization.
Good Represents a Defined Moral Compass of what is Right and Wrong, where Evil believes in the end Justifying the Means or using what ever  you can to achieve your goals.

You must pick an Alignment that represents your characters Political and Social Out look in life.  Lawful/Good, Neutral/Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful/Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic/Neutral. No evil Alignments are allowed.

You will be rated on how well you play your characters adheres to your chosen alignment.

#2 Profession
You choose a profession and Should define your background around what you want that Profession to mean/Be. You will be rated on how well you follow that chosen Profession for your character. Does this mean if you choose a Magician you can not fight in melee or your acting against your Profession? No, But you should be using your spells and magic to accomplish your Goals.

#3 Roleplaying
Do you metagame? Do you play your characters Flaws and make sure they are accounted for? Do you participate in the Roleplay action in the game? Do you leave things just up to the Die? Or do you attempt to Describe and explain what your character is trying to do to accomplish his skill?

#4 Personal Honor

This one is Not a Rated in the same way as the other categories.
You will Gain honor for great deeds known by the world around you. You can Also Lose honor for deeds the World deems was disreputable for your character or for False rumors and accusations being spread about your character.

<b>What can you use honor for?</b>

Firstly, Depending on your Honor Level, you may gain benefits or penalties.

Disreputable = 0-5 points. -10 to all rolls
Low = 6-20 The average joe Citizen no bonuses no penalties
Average =  21-70  +5 to one roll per session.
Great = 71-100 +10 to one roll or +5 to 2 rolls per session and you receive 1 Mulligan per session.
Legendary = 101+ you get a +15 to 1 roll or a +10 to one and +5 to another roll or a +5 to 3 rolls a session. You gain 1 Mulligan and 1 GM forced Mulligan per session.

Also you can Spend your Points to Aid your character in his actions.

1 Point can be "burned" for a +5 to any die roll.
you can Burn 10 points to buy a mulligan or Force the GM to Mulligan a Roll.

Once you Hit Level 5, The Costs to spend Honor Double. At level 10 they tripple and So on every 5 levels.

Everyone Starts the Game with 21 honor.


You will receive additional Honor every 1/4 of a level.
you will receive up to 8 points of honor per quarter level.
I will also be tracking Exceptional events in game and you may earn or Lose an additional 1-2 points of Honor per event.


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