Topic: Rules for bows, especially reloading

[Jengada]

Since I last ran my campaign, I've gotten much more into archery than I was way back. That has exposed me to what I'll call Eastern archery - pretty much anything other than Western European. In light of that, I was looking at the reload times for bows.
Short bows can be fired every round, at a -10, or every other round, with no penalty. Myself, an average skill archer, I can easily fire 3 shots in 10 seconds. I have friends who can fire half a dozen shots in 12 seconds while riding at a gallop, and hit their mark.
I can rationalize the mechanics as "balance." Or I can argue that it's like melee combat, where you have multiple opportunities in the round but your roll reflects your best chance to hit.
Has anyone messed with the bow mechanics, and if so, how has it worked out?

[Peter R]

I am not particularly fast but I can nock, aim and shoot 3 arrows at a gallop in under 15 seconds. The difference is that I am aiming at a target 10cm across that is not at all scary or trying to kill me, nor is it dodging.  Sport for points is not the same as fighting for your life so I do not think you can apply sport experience to combat mechanics. If I were on the ground being shot at I would certainly move, duck and dodge so the archer would have to spend longer tracking the target between shots and I imagine their nocking would be slower as they would have to have at least some attention on the rest of the battle field just in case someone is closing with them, that could add a second or two to the reload times.

I personally do not think the rules need adjusting, IMHO.

[Ecthelion]

The rules are nicely balanced, even if not realistic in terms of fire rate. Therefore we never felt the urge to modify the rules for bows. Remember, its fun > balance > realism.

[intothatdarkness]

Since you track arrows, each bow attack is a single event as far as I'm concerned (the 'flurry of blows' stuff doesn't apply there because you're tracking ammunition use). As for the whole fun > balance > realism mantra, it's your game. If you think it would be more fun to model archery in the way you're discussing, go for it! Run some test combats with it and see how your players like it. If they don't, adjust or go back to RAW. If they do, you've met the mantra in terms of your game and not someone else's.

[Jengada]

Peter, your points are well taken. Sport isn't combat - usually (now I'm tempted to go out and do one of the archery combat obstacle courses.) And Ecthelion and intothatdarkness, I agree whole-heartedly.

I'm inclined to separate the short and long bow reload rates a bit more, nonetheless. I've also adapted the RMSS Martial Arts Companion "weapon style" rules for my campaign, and may make a style that allows an extra shot, or a trick-shot in certain situations. The mechanics mean more investment from the player to develop the skills, and they would allow for a sort of mounted archery specialization. I'll probably run it by my mounted archery coach, who also does ground-based archery combat, but if I come up with something, I'll post it here.

[jdale]

I like the combat style options, that seems reasonable to me and the DP cost should keep it from being too unbalancing. Just increasing the rate of fire without any other changes would shift things in favor of archery, which could be problematic.

If you haven't had a chance to try archery tag I recommend it! I've done that and SCA combat archery with both bow and crossbow. In general I agree with Peter that the chaos of combat slows your rate of fire. That's especially true if the archer is behind an allied line, in which case you are trying to line up a shot against a moving target and find an opening in your own moving line to shoot through. An exception would be the circumstance where the archer is distant from the battle and firing into a horde -- classic military archery, so aiming at individual targets is not required -- but typical RPG combat does not resemble that situation and I wouldn't worry about it.

[Spectre771]

We've never had any issue with bows/reload times.  We were happy with the rules as you stated; once per round at -10 and once every other round.  Given that we held our combat sequences at roughly 6-10 seconds per round, that included the ducking/dodging, watching/tracking, knocking/aiming all into one.  As PeterR stated, sport shooting isn't the same as "hey! He's trying to kill me!"  The adrenaline is flowing and your nerves are a little frantic so rules seem to be a good balance.

As you stated that you aren't that fast but can shoot 3 per 10 seconds and your friends can shoot 6 per 12 seconds but how accurately?  How far away?  But if you convert that to RM2 terms:  More ranks in Bow, Higher AG/AG/ST stat, higher quality equipment, higher Level Bonus, etc.  Could you pull off 6 shots per 12 seconds as your friends do?  Absolutely.  Practice. Practice. Practice.  i.e.: More ranks in Bow Skill, leveled up and have a better bonus with Combat skills, etc.

We had a nice GM who awarded several players with a Quiver of Quickness.  I believe it's in C&T 1.  It's mounted on the bow and holds 5 arrows and allows firing 1 arrow per round without penalty for 5 rounds.

Crossbows on the other hand.  I think we really house ruled.  1 shot every 3rd round without penalty.  A lot of players "quested" for rapid reloading crossbows that had crannequins or cocking levers or other gadgets to allow more rapid reloading.

[Peter R]

As you stated that you aren't that fast but can shoot 3 per 10 seconds and your friends can shoot 6 per 12 seconds but how accurately?  How far away?  But if you convert that to RM2 terms:  More ranks in Bow, Higher AG/AG/ST stat, higher quality equipment, higher Level Bonus, etc.  Could you pull off 6 shots per 12 seconds as your friends do?  Absolutely.  Practice. Practice. Practice.  i.e.: More ranks in Bow Skill, leveled up and have a better bonus with Combat skills, etc.

Funnily enough your accuracy doesn't drop much in my experience. You can 'shoot from the hand' where you can put three or four arrows in your bow hand held down by one finger, you can then put another three or four held down by your second finger and so on. Nine arrows held this way and one on the string is my personal maximum. The arrows are fanned out with the fletchings arrayed between 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock  and shafts and heads at 9 to 12 o'clock (or the opposite if you are other handed!). Shooting is just a matter of grab the nocking point, twist, pull, release. There is no grabbing arrows from quivers and placing on the string. I imagine 6 arrows in 12 seconds is firing from the hand rather than from the quiver. In modern horseback archery there are many disciplines and 'hungarian' courses allow you to shoot from the hand whereas Korean you much shoot from the quiver.
http://blog.volgyiattila.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/HorsebackArchery-EuropeanChampionships-EOCHA-Veroce-1208310544oVA-blogVolgyiAttilaHu.jpg

[Jengada]

All of what Peter said - yes. Shooting from the hand is much faster, as is thumb-release draw (as opposed to three-finger, European style.) This is another reason I like the "Style" option. Individuals from some cultures use heavier bows, but shoot less rapidly. They get range and damage benefits. Others, with smaller bows, may shoot faster but with less range and damage.
If you're into archery and historical fiction, I recommend taking a look at The Mongoliad, by Neal Stephenson and others. They pull characters from a variety of 13th Century cultures, including a longbowman and a Mongolian horse archer.

[Jengada]

So FWIW, I did leave general rules as they stand, but ended up making two special attacks as part of a combat style.
One of the special attacks allows 2 shots/round for 2 rounds, but then 2 rounds not shooting. Fumble range goes up 1 in the first of the 2 shooting rounds, and another 1 in the second of the rounds.
The second special attack is similar, but allows 4 shots in one round. Only one has a chance to hit, though- the others are simply meant to harry spell casters or break someone's concentration. The target has to make an ESF roll to keep it together.

(Open to thoughts on these, if anyone has any.)

[Ecthelion]

Sounds like good options IMHO.

[Spectre771]

The second special attack is similar, but allows 4 shots in one round. Only one has a chance to hit, though- the others are simply meant to harry spell casters or break someone's concentration. The target has to make an ESF roll to keep it together.

(Open to thoughts on these, if anyone has any.)

This is interesting and certainly more frightening, particularly if you're a mage wearing a bath robe amd holding a stick.  Dodging/blocking 1 arrow is harrowing enough, but now a spread of four are coming at you.  How do you handle the mechanics?

* - How is it determined which of the four arrows actually hit?
* - How is the difficulty increased for the spell caster? 

We discussed in another thread somewhat recently, Fumble Range for a spell vs. ESF for spells can be pretty brutal.  I agree that four arrows flying at you is worse, but the spell casters seem to really get shafted with this mechanic.  No pun intended. 

[Jengada]

The second special attack is similar, but allows 4 shots in one round. Only one has a chance to hit, though- the others are simply meant to harry spell casters or break someone's concentration. The target has to make an ESF roll to keep it together.

(Open to thoughts on these, if anyone has any.)

This is interesting and certainly more frightening, particularly if you're a mage wearing a bath robe amd holding a stick.  Dodging/blocking 1 arrow is harrowing enough, but now a spread of four are coming at you.  How do you handle the mechanics?

* - How is it determined which of the four arrows actually hit?
* - How is the difficulty increased for the spell caster? 

We discussed in another thread somewhat recently, Fumble Range for a spell vs. ESF for spells can be pretty brutal.  I agree that four arrows flying at you is worse, but the spell casters seem to really get shafted with this mechanic.  No pun intended. 

I happened to have that doc open when I saw your reply. The attack rolls for the stylist are resolved normally, with fumble range increased by 3. They use 4 shots per round, but only one is really likely to hit. The others are meant to be close shots that unnerve the caster. Independent of the attack hitting, the spell-caster target must make an Extraordinary Spell Failure roll each round they are subjected to this during casting, adding the archer’s Style bonus. This attack can also break concentration, if a concentrating target fails a -10 SD roll.
Trying to do this repeatedly, round after round, I would start to challenge the archer on how many arrows they had handy.

[Spectre771]

I happened to have that doc open when I saw your reply. The attack rolls for the stylist are resolved normally, with fumble range increased by 3. They use 4 shots per round, but only one is really likely to hit. The others are meant to be close shots that unnerve the caster. Independent of the attack hitting, the spell-caster target must make an Extraordinary Spell Failure roll each round they are subjected to this during casting, adding the archer’s Style bonus. This attack can also break concentration, if a concentrating target fails a -10 SD roll.
Trying to do this repeatedly, round after round, I would start to challenge the archer on how many arrows they had handy.

Thank you for that for the 2nd part.

Back to part 1, how do you determine which of the 4 really hits?  Is it always the 1st one and the other are for the shooter to see if he rolled any fumbles during that round?

Yes, quantity of arrows something we've always held our players to.  Some players were amazed that they could run out of arrows.

[Jengada]

I wasn't worrying about which shot it was, I'm not sure it matters - maybe you have a scenario in mind I'm not thinking of. In my mind, the mechanic is that the archer declares they're using the "cloud of arrows" attack. They then determine their OB (lesser of...), roll to hit. If they fumble, the attack completely fails: no damage, no harassment of the target. If they simply do no damage, the target still has to deal with the ESF or concentration impact.
Do you see a hiccup in there?

[Jengada]

I'll also add, because the special attack is part of an advanced weapons style (I think I mentioned earlier, I adapted those from the RMSS Martial Arts Companion), it's not cheap. To get 2 ranks of bow and 2 ranks in the style in one experience level, the character would have to spend at least 18 development points. That's at a 1/5 cost for bow, and a 3/9 cost for advanced weapon styles. The style also gives a +10 riding bonus when using it, and controlling the mount takes 10% activity instead of a normal 20%. (The character can use the style on the ground, but it's particularly good for mounted use.)

[Spectre771]

I wasn't worrying about which shot it was, I'm not sure it matters - maybe you have a scenario in mind I'm not thinking of. In my mind, the mechanic is that the archer declares they're using the "cloud of arrows" attack. They then determine their OB (lesser of...), roll to hit. If they fumble, the attack completely fails: no damage, no harassment of the target. If they simply do no damage, the target still has to deal with the ESF or concentration impact.
Do you see a hiccup in there?

I think I follow you now.  You are only rolling one OB roll, to shoot four arrows, the fantasy portion is that a cloud of arrows is flying at the target, the reality portion is that it's really only one arrow contacting the target, therefore only one OB roll and one actual attack.

I was thinking the player declared Cloud of Arrows attack, fired four arrows, made four OB rolls, then the confusion set in.... which of those four arrows was the "one that hits" the target?  Cloud of arrows is to make spell casting concentration more difficult for the target, not to give the attacker an OB, in fact it's more difficult for the attacker.  That's a decent balance in gameplay.  I may try to do something similar in one of my sessions to see how it plays out.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

RoCo II's old companion, Arms Companion has the Trick shot skill, itself divided into several "trick shots". Two "trick shots" may be of interest to you (quick shot and lightning draw) so you may want to check them if you have access to this book.
Other than that, really, the RM2 combat rules were written in the early 80s. I don't want to dismiss the work of their former writers, but I doubt they had access to as many sources to which to refer as we do now, as Internet didn't really exist back then. So, I think the rules can get away with not being realistic...

[Spectre771]

RoCo II's old companion, Arms Companion has the Trick shot skill, itself divided into several "trick shots". Two "trick shots" may be of interest to you (quick shot and lightning draw) so you may want to check them if you have access to this book.

Arms Companion is an excellent book to have given how spell-heavy RM2 is.  I have volumes of books for spells and spell castes but only Arms Companion and Sea Law dedicated to the non-spell users.  There's a wealth of knowledge and optional rules in there.

[Jengada]

RoCo II's old companion, Arms Companion has the Trick shot skill, itself divided into several "trick shots". Two "trick shots" may be of interest to you (quick shot and lightning draw) so you may want to check them if you have access to this book.

Thanks, OLF. I forget about the Arms Companion, and even forgot I had it. Nothing against the authors, but much of it feels so campaign specific that I don't pull it out often. But I looked those skills up, and while I kind of like some aspects of the skills, they're not quite what I was after. I really like the combat (weapon and martial arts) style skills and mechanics from RMSS Martial Arts Law, and the more I built these skills into that structure, the more they made sense and fit my goals.