Author Topic: why three realms of magic?  (Read 3458 times)

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Offline juza

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why three realms of magic?
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:36:53 AM »
I was wondering about the differences between the three realms of magic. And I really can't find out a good reason why magic have to be divided in different realms.
All the ways in which magic has dealt with the magic in the history seem to be similar to RM essence. Also Cabal magic, that in RM should be associated to channeling magic, actually is a kind of magic based on the knowledge of the secret meaning of the words, it is more similar to the Nomenist essence school of magic. Also other ways of using magic invented by humans in the world's history seem to be more similar to essence also if they are associated to some kind of god or supernatural entity.
So if the focus of RM is to be realistic why there is three realms and not only one?

Offline jdale

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2017, 09:11:51 AM »
I think you may be starting from the wrong premise if your complaint is that the depiction of magic is unrealistic. At best, this is highly subjective.

I would say the purpose of realms is 1) to separate different types of casters so that no one can fill all the roles, and specialization is needed, 2) to give different strengths and weaknesses, and 3) support major existing archetypes of magic in fantasy (e.g. cleric vs mage).
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Offline vector

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 09:54:02 AM »
I like the three realms of magic idea. If I had any one complaint, it would be that the realms are NOT different enough from each other.

If you want to combine them, pick up the old Arcane Companion and smash them all together!

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 10:16:45 AM »
I would say the purpose of realms is 1) to separate different types of casters so that no one can fill all the roles, and specialization is needed, 2) to give different strengths and weaknesses, and 3) support major existing archetypes of magic in fantasy (e.g. cleric vs mage).
+1

Offline Hurin

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2017, 10:32:37 AM »
I like the three realms of magic idea. If I had any one complaint, it would be that the realms are NOT different enough from each other.

+1 too. Though the developers of RMU have tried to do a bit more to differentiate the realms.

Quote
If you want to combine them, pick up the old Arcane Companion and smash them all together!

Right, the idea IIRC is that all realms were at one point a single realm. So Arcane magic is basically all three realms combined together. If you wanted to have a RM campaign with only one realm, you could just say that all magic is Arcane magic.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2017, 12:15:22 PM »
Though the developers of RMU have tried to do a bit more to differentiate the realms.
They did? I didn't feel the realms in RMU to differ much (if any) from how they are in RM2/RMSS...

As far as I'm concerned, I never was fond of RM's realms of magic, because I felt they were all but artificial, with arbitrary choices about which spells should be a part of which realm. In fact, I got rid of them decades ago, to replace them with my own way to interpret magic sources as, well, sources, meaning differing by how one gets power rather than what one can do.
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Offline jdale

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2017, 12:40:07 PM »
Getting Monk out of Essence and into Mentalism helps, since the monk spells were the only healing type spells in Essence in RMSS. But otherwise the changes in the spells are not tremendous relative to RMSS (the updates are more focused on rules and filling in gaps). I think, although I'm not certain, that RMSS had already made some changes relative to RM2, so it might seem more of a shift for those coming from that edition.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 02:15:06 PM »
Another example was one of the water bolt spells on a Mentalism list. I made a post saying that maybe, to make Mentalism a bit different than essence, the Mentalist should need to have actual water around; unlike an essence caster, he couldnt just conjure water out of air. But someone noted that the spell description actually required there to be a natural source of water nearby.

I do agree that the realms were not as well defined/differentiated in past editions, and that more could be done to further differentiate them. But i also wanted to give credit where it was due.
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Offline Justin

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 02:23:09 PM »
Seems to me the realms are more distinct in terms of enchanted items. Channeling has charms, but no potions. Etc.

And, as Jdale said, who's really to say what's a more proper execution of a fictional power?
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Offline jdale

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 03:17:46 PM »
That's definitely true. Treasure Law made a real effort to differentiate the realms.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 06:13:37 PM »
Some increased differentiation between realms in RMU:

Distinct spell failure tables for each realm.

Some suggestions on non-mechanical descriptive distinctions between realms (e.g., as to how spell research is conducted). The recommendations for handling Dream spells can influence mechanics of play in determining what skills may help with dream-interpretation.

Changes in spell selection, including entirely new or rewritten lists. Demon-summoning was made purely a matter of Channeling, whereas it had previously been split between Essence and Channeling. The "elemental" aspect of Essence was strengthened in both the Gate Mastery list (elemental summoning made prominent) and the addition of Closed elemental lists (in previous editions, Semis of Essence were the only casters who had no access to an elemental bolt attack in core). Mentalism now focuses almost entirely on mind tricks, rather than Essence-style invisibility or illusions for the same roles (Cloaking and Seemings lists... the specialist Magent has something more of a mix). There was also an effort to generally make new spells that filled gaps in the lists provide some realm-differentiation when possible. Of course, there were other factors considered. For example, where it made sense, I tried to distinguish pure and semi base lists in having semis' spells tend to augment skill use, whereas pures' spells would be more likely to replace skill use. The most obvious case of this is the differentiation of the Cleric and Paladin as foes of the undead. Obviously, there is still a good deal of overlap in certain areas, but I do not think this can or should be eliminated. And while every realm had a list of detection spells, the lists have some differences. Only Channeling has Detect Undead. Only Mentalism gets Detect Intrusion to make sure nobody is poking about in one's head.

Admittedly, the realms all continue to operate under essentially the same rules with some minor variables. This leaves things more generic than they might be, but this is a boon for those customizing. It is pretty easy to move lists (or entire professions) from one realm to another, if it fits the GM's setting and/or personal preferences better that way. Likewise, a list can simply be "borrowed" for specific cases, such as giving Fire Law to the Cleric of a fire deity. On the other hand, the division makes it easier for the GM to distinguish Channeling from Essence by imposing new rules that take advantage of the already-defined realm boundaries. You can, for example, easily add an "Orthodoxy" value to Channeling casters to measure how well they are adhering to religious strictures and make various adjustments to their magical abilities accordingly as Orthodoxy rises and falls.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2017, 10:44:25 PM »
Thanks for that Rdanhenry! I hadn't fully appreciated all the things you'd done to differentiate the realms. All those changes seem great.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2017, 10:56:41 PM »
Balance answer: Imagine an invisible, flying, fireball throwing healer that can control your mind.
Theme answer: Elemental, Spiritual, Mental.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 11:11:09 AM »

If you want to combine them, pick up the old Arcane Companion and smash them all together!

RM2 has an optional Arcane Magic with existed before the schools of magic were created and the essence of magic became 3 realms.  This suits the Archmage PC perfectly as the Archmage doesn't perceive three realms of magic, merely "magic." 

Elemental Companion also has a great timeline for how the schools of magic developed for Elementalism if you wanted to dig deeper or further restrict or open up the magic in your gaming world.

Balance answer: Imagine an invisible, flying, fireball throwing healer that can control your mind.
Theme answer: Elemental, Spiritual, Mental.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 11:41:44 PM »
I won't go into a long explanation, but Spectre771 reminded me that I use 'Arcane' as the form of magic 'self taught' casters use.  Essentially magic is largely feared so it's hard to get a teacher.  As a result most casters (which aren't even Semi's) either learn to manipulate Arcane or die trying.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2017, 07:01:27 AM »
  As a result most casters (which aren't even Semi's) either learn to manipulate Arcane or die trying.

 ;D   I want to game in your world!!!

I have loved the way RM handled magic since I started playing.  Once the thought of Arcane magic came into being, the GMs had another way to address magic and to introduce an entire society into the game.  The "ancients" or the original druids who utilized magic as simply raw energy that could be manipulated without shackles and constraints on what the caster wears, or what the caster could study or how the caster tapped into that power.  I fell in love with the archmage at that point. Magic is simply magic, don't overthink, son.  Just let it flow.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2017, 10:38:57 AM »
Loved the Archmage! He was one of the classes I redid (with individual skill costs) for RMU too, just because he is so much fun.
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Offline juza

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2017, 02:03:53 AM »
When I used to play to RMC Archmage was my favorite class too. That's why I would like to break the three realm rule in my RMSS world. I'm thinking to divide spells only in open, close and base lists. The bonus and malus for casting spell will be calculated following the rules of Arcane magic or maybe Channeling magic (so is easier to cast spell with an armor, but maybe in this way spell caster is too powerful). But I'm not yet found a way to handle the dispel spells: If there are no differences between realms of magic what will happen to spells like dispel essence, dispel channeling and dispel mentalism?

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2017, 05:12:54 AM »
Balance answer: Imagine an invisible, flying, fireball throwing healer that can control your mind.
Sure, and what about it? It's more powerful than some characters may be, and less than others? I mean, balance? Well, a fully late armoured fighter with a magical weapon and a shield and "unbalanced" in a party made of unarmed farmers. Would you then create rules to forbid the existence in your world of armours and weapons since there would be unarmoured and unarmed people? After all, it would be "unbalanced.

I said it countless of times, and again but:
Nothing is truly simply "balanced" or "unbalanced" in the world, least in a game system. The answer depends on what the other players are playing, what the levels of their characters are, in comparison to the other PC's character, what their experience as players is, in comparison to the player for whom you're asking, etc.. If they're all playing, say, "Farmers" (there was such a profession in RoCo.II), well, even a mere Fighter would probably be unbalanced. If their characters are all ten levels higher than the player for who you're asking, then you may indeed want to give him a profession a bit more powerful than theirs. Same if they're all have ten years more experience in RPGs. Etc.

From my POV, nothing is really "broken" and it's unrealistic to ever consider that. Are guns broken? Well, indeed, compared to swords and arrows, they are. Yet they came into existence and use. Are nuclear weapons broken? Probably. Didn't prevent them from existing, though. In fact, any new creation can be broken compared to former ones: it's called progress.
So, are some spells and professions more powerful than others? Probably. Though, it also depends on the context: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king after all. In the end, people adapt to everything: an invisible flying mage throwing fireballs may be powerful... the first few years. But after some time, not only would there be so many of them running (well, flying) around, having one in one's army wouldn't give such an edge, countermeasures would have been developed and anti-air devices (i.e. magic items) able to detect invisible would be widespread as well. After all, if profession X is so much better than the others, then every rich family will push one of their heirs to become one... And if SuperWarriorClass is way better than any other fighter class, then after some time, anyone able to become a SuperWarriorClass will be one, so being a SuperWarriorClass wouldn't give a party such an edge, as most other party would have a couple of SuperWarriorClass members as well!

Balance is unrealistic: the world isn't balanced, no world is. And true unbalance doesn't last: people copy, adapt and evolve. An "invisible, flying, fireball throwing healer that can control your mind" may be powerful compared to the rest of the world... until the character actually does something significant. Then, in a few years, except if for some reasons no one but the original guy is able to learn invisibility, fly, fireball-casting, healing and mental control (but then, healing would be unbalanced if no one if one person in the whole world can cast it), every single person with sufficient means would be able to do the same, and, since every rich and powerful person would invest into countermeasurese by fear of the above, magical items allowing to see invisible, fly, protect from fire and mental control would probably be available to anyone rich enough, making the original character powerful when compared to people with little means. But then, a guy able to get the best teachers and the best equipement is the same compared to people no able to get time to train, teachers or any kind of equipement.

As for balance in a team, it depends very very little on the character's profession itself: players' experience, equipment, characters' social status, characters' levels, etc. would actually play a more important role.

Personally, I've been playing without the limitations of RM2's realms for decades, having merely Open and Closed lists, all put together, and I never got ever such "unbalance" problems, at least no because of that (I had others I had to solve, but it was more related to the points I aforementioned). In fact, even with such rules, I hardly had players willing to play pure spellcasters: only two out of a bit over one score of players. The reasons? Those who tried, abandonned then played mere semi-users just they noticed how painful and a headache it was to play one, since one had to manage hundreds of spells, know a whole new set of rules (I think it became better in RMSS but in RM2, the magic system was just a set of rules different and in addition to normal rules, that with EAR or BAR modifiers and all), parameters (how to read spell descriptions), manage more figures for a character (PPs using a different recovery system), etc.

My question to you, Cory, would be: so you think that going without RM's magic classification would because unbalance problem but did you actually try doing so?
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: why three realms of magic?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2017, 09:37:20 AM »
But I'm not yet found a way to handle the dispel spells: If there are no differences between realms of magic what will happen to spells like dispel essence, dispel channeling and dispel mentalism?

Could you just reword it to "Dispel Magic" or "Dispel Arcane"?  I'd have to look at the wording for the Arcane spell lists to see how those lists handled dispelling.  If the caster doesn't recognize three realms of magic, yet has Dispel Spells, the question may already be addressed within those spell lists.  If you choose an entirely arcane magic world, there will be some very specific spells that would be inapplicable. 

You could remove the spell from the list or substitute a spell.  "Create Cup of Hot Tea: 4 PP.  Caster is able to conjure a cup of Earl Grayer tea."
If discretion is the better valor and
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