Topic: Defense vs Arcane magic?

[dutch206]

Sorry, LM, but I like Rasyr's way better.  It requires less math at the gaming table.  The last thing RM needs right now is another complicated mechanic.

If a decision is reached, I am assuming that this will be in an upcoming Express Additions after RMC I is released?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If a decision is reached, I am assuming that this will be in an upcoming Express Additions after RMC I is released?

Quite possibly.  But like I said, I want to hear other people's opinions BEFORE I make a final decision.

[thrud]

Simple is good, that's why I like RMC so much better than RMFRP.
RM needs to stay as simple as possible while still retaining that realistic feeling.

[Marc R]

Sorry, LM, but I like Rasyr's way better.  It requires less math at the gaming table.  The last thing RM needs right now is another complicated mechanic.

The math is all in explaining what I meant. . .in the end the two proposals are each 4 lines of modifiers. . .neither more complex or simple than the other, merely a disagreement on the scale of the bonus involved.

BTW, you swapped the red and blue lines (I assume accidentaly).

+0     All realms in common.
+17   Two of three realms in common.
+25   One of two realms in common.
+33   One of three realms in common.

+0     All realm(s) removed
+10   3 realm hybrid with 2 realms removed
+15   two realm hybrid with 1 realm removed
+25   3 realm hybrid with 1 realm removed

Tim agreed we needed 4 tiers of mods, the page of math and explaination is just backup for why I think the mods he used were too low, and his counter points on why he thinks they're right on the money.

[Fornitus]

 Rasyr- maybe I missed something, but why are you asuming in any of the examples that the Dispel/Cancel is successful?

 The house of cards falls if 1/2 or 2/3 of the cards are removed. But, if the Dispel fails then NO cards get removed at all.

 We have played since like 85 or something and droping the Dispel attack level by 1/2 or 1/3 has always been the easiest and the best balance feel for us. Also, we obviously give no mod to an Arcaine(Tri-Hybrid) Dispelling a single realm or duo-realm effect. i.e. 1:1 .

 My point is, the attacking Dispel dosnt get a open/free shot at the "parts" it MAY be able to effect.

 Ill try 2 examples and shut up.
   LIQUID- if a Hybrid spell is equated to a mixture of pudding and oil as representing the 2 realms, Then anything designed to only attack the pudding side of the mixture and has NO normal effect on the oil side of the mix will be at 1/2 effectiveness at least to even GET to all the parts its trying to affect. Some of the oil gets in the way and PROTECTS the Pudding.
  SOLID- If a Tri-Realm effect is seen as 3 types of wire bound together, (copper,aluminum,and iron) and a Dispell/Cancel is cast only using Copper and Iron as targets, the attacking spell will still have a hard time getting to all its target parts beacuse some of those target parts are behind something the attacker cant effect. So, the reduction of the attackers level by 1/3 for the ensuing RR.

 Just MHO, but is sounds to me you are assuming the Dispell automaticaly works then you are figguring the RR after removing the target element insted of a RR to see if there is any effect in the first place.

[dutch206]

Fornitus. interesting argument.  However, The Dispel xxx spells have a spherical area of effect.  Therefore the "attack" is coming from all sides at the same time.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Rasyr- maybe I missed something, but why are you asuming in any of the examples that the Dispel/Cancel is successful?

 The house of cards falls if 1/2 or 2/3 of the cards are removed. But, if the Dispel fails then NO cards get removed at all.

Likely just bad communication on my part...    Trying to explain it from the wrong direction (from working on too many things at once...), especially when I get sidetracked by things (and end up confusing what/how I was trying to say).

The mods I gave are meant to applied to the RR against the Cancel of Dispel. Multiple realm spells are harder to dispel, but it can still be done -- that is the who gist of what I was trying to say.

Example:
10th level Dispel Essence Sphere spell against a 5th level spell (Pure, Hybrid (2 realms, 1 realm in common), Arcane (3 realms, 1 in common)

Vs. Pure Essence -- Defending spell has to roll 65 or better or be dispelled
Vs. Essence/Mentalism Hybrid -- Defending spell has to roll 50 or better or be dispelled
Vs. Arcane Spell -- Defending spell has to roll 40 or better or be dispelled


Bonus to defending spell's RR against Cancel/Dispel

• +0  ==   Cancel/Dispel attacks all realm(s) equally
• +10  == Cancel/Dispel attacks 2 out of 3 realms (* Special Circumstance)
• +15  == Cancel/Dispel attacks 1 out of 2 realms
• +25 == Cancel/Dispel attacks 1 realm out of 3 (i.e. Arcane)

* Special Circumstance == Something that won't normally happen in the course of a game, thus likely not going to make it to the end ruling as I am not in the business of micro-managing a GM's game by trying to think of every single special contingency, especially for something that would most likely require a GM to make a ruling to allow to begin with (this would be akin to option that requires/assumes another option is in play -- something that I dislike creating/doing).

[Marc R]

IMO there are 4 fully reasonable ways to look at it, which I'd accept from a GM as house rulese without question:

1) Hybridized effects are equal parts, and any one realm effect targeting affects them proportionately. (Which is how RR mods, or spells that affect RR mods work.)
2) Hybridized effects are equal parts, with some mixing, so one realm effects targeting them affect both the pure targeted portion, and the mixed portion. (Which Rasyr seems to be saying.)
3) Hybridized effects mix, but are so interdependant that if you remove or block one realm, the whole thing falls apart.
4) Hybridized effects are fully mixed and unique, taking on their own characteristics and are only affected by exactly the same hybridized effects or arcane. (Which would be quite hard to defend against or dispell)

The logic I laid out up top covers 1 for cancels, and is also the way RRs work.

I beleive rasyr's version covers 2 for cancels, but if that were true, then a +30 channeling RR mod should give you +20 (2/3) vs Channeling/Essence rather than the +15 (1/2) that it does currently. . if a cancel channeling spell affects both the pure channeling and the "mixed" channel/essence portions, missing only the pure essence parts, then a resist channeling spell should have EXACTLY the same treatment.

#3 would be a simple answer, it'd say "If the cancel spell has any realms in common with the target spell it has full effect". . .but then your RR bonus vs hybrid would be "The higher of the two realms."

#4 would make hybrids and arcane kinda nasty. . .and is the situation as of right now in terms of cancelling magic without a rules call by ICE. This doesn't mesh with the logic of how RRs work either.

[Elf-Mage]

There is an even simpler way of doing this:

Basically, every spell that a Hybrid User uses count as all of their realms, meaning that you average the RR's vs all of the Casters realms.

Treat the Archmage and Arcane magic the same way, so you average the RR's against all 3 realms.

If you use this method, you may want to note your Arcane Resistance. Also, if you have a special ability that gives you a bonus to RR's from one realm, you might decide to take Arcane (It depends on how prevalent Arcane magic is). This is, of course, subject to GM Approval.

And with regards to Dispels, any spell the caster uses can be defeated using any of their constituent realms, as without one realm of magic, the spell falls apart. Arcane magic is vulnerable to any dispel, but is hideously powerful anyway, so it balances things out.

Simple, huh?