Author Topic: Encouraging Contributors  (Read 17953 times)

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Encouraging Contributors
« on: June 25, 2013, 03:12:43 AM »
G'day!

I know things have been largely quiet, lately, regarding the volume of submissions. And I know from my own experience that a small article can easily be written up in an hour, an hour and a half. What can I do, then, that would help encourage our peers to contribute more material, even if it is a small article or write-up of a PC or NPC (etcetera)?
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Offline Ironmaul

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 06:25:30 AM »
Not to sound like a total ass, but money is what turns the gears. Time is money and these days doing stuff for free is counter-productive and to be blunt, an industry killer.
I understand places like Guild Companion is a good place to show ones talents in writing and feedback but these places will struggle to be thriving unless there's a
strong invested interest by the fan base and the chance of real paid work from those contributing articles. I'm unsure if anyone has gotten a gig from writing GC articles? beyond my knowledge.

I did the character illustrations for "Friends and Rivals" waaaaaay back, and I would never do that again under the same circumstances. There was to much time invested and little reward at the end. This was not GCP fault but mine.
Would I do character/NPC illustrations? sure I would with a caveat, the effort will justify the reward this time round. F&R was never a hit so I'm skeptical something of that nature again would do well.



Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 02:53:32 PM »
I have written a couple of articles in the past and will certainly do so again should I have something I think others really might be interested in. But I have to admit that in the past there was little "reward" (as Ironmaul phrased it) in terms of (positive) feedback on the articles. So I will definitely think twice before investing the time.

Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 04:53:11 PM »
I hear what you're saying Ironmaul (and no, you don't sound like an ass, total or otherwise), and I understand that what can help pick up the fortunes of RM 7/or HARP is a serious prozine or semi-prozine that pays contributors. Unfortunately, that requires income, usually in the form of advertisers, and the advertisers want the circulation before they poney up the cash, in most cases.

Where I see places like the Guild Companion is this: it gives potential designers the space to develop their writing skills, progressing towards more ambitious items. Then, when they're ready to progress towards the paying publications, these same articles can be used as the basis of their early portfolio. I am, though, seeing that from my experience as a published author and poet.

Ecthelion: I understand your reluctance to write again, and I appreciate that for you and others that feedback is essential. I have an idea (below) and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

Briefly, the idea is that more experienced writers be encouraged to act as mentors to less experienced writers, and give them the sort of feedback needed. I know this places more demands on the more experienced writers; among Australian poets the solution has been to make sure mentors are paid for their time and effort, to help support them and their careers, as well as bring in income. Something like this could happen, perhaps with kickstarter projects to fund those who are less able to afford a mentor.

What do you think of this?
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 09:40:07 PM »
Where I see places like the Guild Companion is this: it gives potential designers the space to develop their writing skills, progressing towards more ambitious items. Then, when they're ready to progress towards the paying publications, these same articles can be used as the basis of their early portfolio. I am, though, seeing that from my experience as a published author and poet.

That's how I had seen it as well, and I am seeing it from the point of view of someone whose writing experience is virtually nil.

Quote
I understand your reluctance to write again, and I appreciate that for you and others that feedback is essential.

Yeah, that. The closest analogue I have is the entertainment industry as an actor and musician. In that sense, I regard Guild Companion as equivalent to "open auditions." But with any audition, the critique of your performance is the most important part, it's the foundation of your insight into what worked from the initial concept, what didn't work, and how to improve what didn't work until it does.

To be sure, part of my problem with GC Magazine recently is that between RMU and the HARP revision, much of the basis for ideas are in a state of flux themselves, so it's hard to escape the concern that whatever ideas you put forth may already be obsolete before they are ever published. In fairness, a lot of the problem for my part has been a simple lack of ideas themselves. I'm fairly good at conceptualizing a rationale for why the game mechanics work as they do, and reasonably good at coming up with a mechanic to fit my conceptualizing. But it seems to me that the conceptualizing is rather useless without game mechanics to tie it to, to "put meat on the bones" so to speak, and as noted above, tying the concept to mechanics that may no longer be valid by the time the piece goes to publication rather dampens one's enthusiasm at best.

I have written two pieces for GCM. The first was a concept for a robotic AI NPC for HARP SF, written before (possibly during) the decision was made that AIs (among other things) needed to be reserved for HSF Extreme. I am still not completely sure to what degree my methods agree or fail to agree with the AI creation system the game itself will eventually have, although Nicholas was as helpful there as it was possible for him to be.

The other piece was a method of having supplementary skill knowledge support the primary skill being considered as the basis for a given skill roll, without having to have a lot of information tracking or a bunch of extra rolls. It was intended for use with HARP, but in theory would work with any system that used skill resolution based on a d100 roll and diminishing returns for skill ranks. Of course I liked the idea or I wouldn't have submitted it, but I got so little feedback that I honestly couldn't tell you if more than half a dozen people ever read it at all, much less whether they thought it might be useful. I'm glad I came up with the idea, as I will use it even if no one else does... but if I'm the only person who cares, I could have just as well left it in the form of hen-scratch on a note pad. I'm glad I wrote it, if for no other reason for the practice of putting my ideas into a coherent narrative... but whether it qualified as an actually productive use of my time is still very much arguable.

Mentoring sounds to me like a great idea, the trick is in making it work. My current experience is so scant that I don't consider myself qualified to judge whether your idea is feasible or not.

Quote
I'm unsure if anyone has gotten a gig from writing GC articles? beyond my knowledge.

I think I could credibly argue that I have, as I have gone from that to working on a section of an upcoming product for which I will presumably be paid. How much influence the one had on the other, I am unable to say with any certainty. And in all honesty, I would have no problem with doing more submissions for GC Magazine, knowing it would net me nothing except practice and exposure. Right now, I suspect I need both of those things at least as badly as I need the money. Nonetheless, the problems noted above still exist.
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Offline pyrotech

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2013, 10:13:23 PM »
I'm not too concerned with tangible rewards for TCG articles.  I've only submitted a few, but I've got a couple more pending me coming up with the motivation to finish them up.  For me just being able to contribute to a hobby that I have enjoyed for near to three decades is nice. 

Even if not many people give any feedback on the articles, I figure there are 20 people who enjoyed it for every one that does give feedback.  So if only 2 or 3 people say anything I figure at least 40 or 60 people actually enjoyed it - and that is enough people to make it worth my recreational time.

Now if I could contribute to an actual printed project that would be pretty cool, but even just a free web magazine being interested enough to put my work out there is cool enough to keep me contributing.

Now if there were tangible motivations available I'm sure I would be able to carve out some more time to push my articles out faster but it isn't really my main motivation for writing them.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2013, 10:52:36 PM »
OK, I'll admit that I have been hesitant to provide too much feedback, mainly because I appreciate that people take the time to submit any article and I'd hate to have my negative comments impact their desire to write more - but then again, if non-commenting is yielding the same result I might as well comment.

As most ICE fans are probably aware, I am a HARP fan/contributor. I've only played RM a few times but I found that for me they did not meet up to my HARP experiences.  So my comments are really only regarding HARP and HARP SF articles published since Jan 2012.

1 - Clint Fell's article on Power Armor (June 2013) and the Bughunters articles (Jan and Feb 2012) are all great in my opinion.  This probably comes from my love of all things Starship Troopers (book, movie, animation, even Mongoose Publishing's RPG products that try to combine them all). The Power Armor is a bit more complex than I would like (I prefer HARP to be simplified whenever possible), but the concepts are great and I can always tweak it.

2 - Jorg's article on Rolemaster Combat for HARP (Nov 2012).  I know for many this is likely a great thing, especially considering how HARP Combat was released and then tweaked repeatedly by the folks of Mjolnir. While they may have served some gamers out there, I really prefer to stick to a single system and find the original core version to work for the most part (though I am not a fan of damage caps as they seem to come up a bit too often).  Overall a good article, but not for me.

3 - Sam Orton's Bonus Skill Resolution (Dec 2012) is an interesting twist on the rules, but way too much additional complexity for me and I prefer to simply use the Bonus column on the maneuver table applying it for only one related skill (highest bonus).
Reasonably written, but not something I'd ever be interested in using.

All three of you, thanks for contributing to the hobby and the possible enjoyment of the HARP system.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 12:02:33 AM »
I'm pretty sure that if I hadn't written for TGC, I would not have been invited to be part of RMU development. My forum comments were a consideration, too, but the articles showed I could produce finished prose product and I did it reliably over an extended period of time. So Nicholas knew who I was, and I ended up being one of those who went the distance and actually is authoring RMU text.

And that is why I'm not producing anything for the Guild Companion. I had quite a few ideas that would have become articles if not for RMU. Once RMU is done, some of those will probably be resurrected.

When it comes to feedback, could something be done to encourage this? Maybe just a line at the end of each article asking to put your two cents in and a link to the appropriate thread here?

And while it is a bit early to be writing for RMU, there's still room for material based on earlier editions (and things that can be done without mechanics entirely). When the market for RMU support materials does arrive, I expect having some TGC articles to your name would help your proposal get accepted.
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 02:11:26 AM »
I want to add that, as a result of my work in the Guild Companion that I've been invited to write, recently, for HARP. So I can support the role it can play.

Likewise, I've been remiss in giving feedback, and should get off my arse and do something about doing so. And thank you, Thom, for your comments.

As for waiting for RMU, I can see arguments both for and against it. For it, it is the next iteration of RM, but against, there are many still playing the older versions. I still have urges to collect everything RM2 and resurrect my house rules. What I can do, tho, is write generic stuff, such as a lot of my magic items, and version-specific items, such as the Psionics articles, and still create a range of options that others can then adapt from, adapt, or riff off as desired.

And it's good, as pyrotech may well back up, to stand back and say with satisfaction "I made this!"
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 02:25:09 AM »
I think that The Guild Companion magazine is a great place to officially put your ideas out there for one of the systems that you know isn't going to go in as official.  I've contributed a few items, but always declined payment (which allowed me to retain my own rights of usage to the material), not that they would have brought me much anyhow.  For example, I tossed in my idea for a "Duelist" using a unique branch off of Bladerunes that I don't ever see going into RM, but there might be a good number of gamers who find it interesting enough to implement.

Also, I don't think lack of large profits for contributing articles is really much of a deterrent for most of us who love the hobby.  You don't write for RPG's because you're looking to get rich (and if you are - well, good luck).  I do it because if I can help someone else have as much fun as I have playing without much personal investment I'm totally up for it.  Do a crapload of work helping rewrite RM?  Not for me, not without a nice monetary payoff for the time invested.  But contribute a few ideas or articles here and there?  Sure, why the heck not.  Most of it is rules we've just come up with for use in our group already anyhow.  A little polishing and editing and you've got an article.

I've said before, if there were loads of high caliber RPG writers out there I still don't think there'd be room enough for them in such a small industry anyhow.  Supply and demand and all that.  Also consider that the highly successful game companies often pay less... because people want to work for them.  I did for a while and found I could (literally) make twice as much elsewhere.  There's a line for all of us between a fun job and a well paying job.  The people who get both are lucky.  If I could make... say... 75-80% of what I do now working in the RPG industry I'd probably do it.  But there are a good number of people with more credentials (although potentially not necessarily better) than I lined up in front of me.  Point being, if you think writing is going to get you rich take a look at someone like Michael Stackpole.  Great writer (IMO), but not exactly raking in the cash.  He's making a living at it, but likely not as good a living as many of us here.

So I say, unless you think you've got the next D&D rolling around in your head and have the commitment to publish it (and be honest with yourself about that), contribute and inspire others the way past articles may have inspired you.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 02:37:47 AM »
Mentoring sounds to me like a great idea, the trick is in making it work. My current experience is so scant that I don't consider myself qualified to judge whether your idea is feasible or not.
+1

Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 03:41:09 AM »
Cory Magel, you've made strong points there. Not everyone can be, after all, a Monte Cook or Gary Gygax, just as I know that most writers find it bloody difficult making a living from their writing. Those that get the press, the Dan Browns, et al., usually do so at the expense at the quality of their writing. This is why I admire the work of Terry for one thing: he doesn't take the easy, populist route, at the same time as he supports his fan base. That is the sort of writer I want to be.

Can HARP/RM support a paying magazine? I don't know, not at this stage. From what I understand, Dungeon & Dragon both struggled with the advent of online content, and both have now moved to a digital format.

You may pity us poor poets: most of us, if we get paid, it's $1-$5 a poem and/or a copy of the magazine. Heck, a lot of places charge us to submit. And usually most of our income comes from workshops & teaching positions. Yet there are poets that make a living from it, nothing extravagant, but a living nonetheless.

:)

Ciao!
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 07:16:08 AM »
If there was a paying magazine with ICE system material in it then both Aurigas Aldebaron (ICE) and GCP would need to dedicate resources to it. We would also need to ensure it resulted in regular delivery of material.  I believe everyone would rather see full quality products rather than a regular small magazine product with material that has not been playtested and fails to truly expand the product lines.
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Offline mistrornge

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 07:19:34 AM »
I make a decent wage outside of gaming so the money is not a huge reason for writing.  I will retire from the military in a couple of years and would be interested in getting more involved in the future (more than editing). 
As others have said its a foot in the door and perhaps a bit of recognition on the boards is a good thing.  Everything I have written I did for me and my players - putting it out in GCM was just icing and to help the magazine out.  Putting your name on a product you have played for 3 decades is great.  I remember the names when I was a teen and perhaps the next generation will remember mine a bit (immortality - hit your 40s and you will think of it occasionally).
Charles
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 07:36:33 AM »
If there was a paying magazine with ICE system material in it then both Aurigas Aldebaron (ICE) and GCP would need to dedicate resources to it. We would also need to ensure it resulted in regular delivery of material.  I believe everyone would rather see full quality products rather than a regular small magazine product with material that has not been playtested and fails to truly expand the product lines.

You said it succinctly and straight as, Thom. As it is, it can often seem a struggle to get a good mix of articles for the Guild Companion, precisely for those reasons. One response I'm dedicated to undertaking is maintining, if possible, a batch of submissions for when times are lean, and Peter ends up gnawing his shoe leathers for sustenance, so to speak. That way I can be assured that there's that "regular delivery of material' to which I am helping commit myself to. And I know I'm not the only person out there playing the games that we love.

I was wondering, Thom, how would you and your colleagues in Aurigas help encourage potential contributors to take a punt with the Guild Companion?
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 07:39:20 AM »
mistrornge -- I think about immortality a lot, and I doubt I'll get it from biosprogs, so a name in the footnotes of poetry and gaming seems the best option thus far.

All the best with the rest of your tour of duty (if I may so wish).
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 07:56:05 AM »
Funny you should ask...
Now I cannot elaborate too much at this time as we are not fully ready to announce it, but we will be doing an overhaul of the Order of the Iron Crown. The OIC began a few years back as fans wanted to put time ans effort into promoting ICE systems and settings. Now Aurigas will be embracing the OIC and will be using our forums, social media and other avenues to acknowledge, recognize and reward fans for their support and contributions. It is one of key projects right now to put the finishing touches on and I hope to complete before the end of summer.  I am very excited about this and hope that as more news is shared you will all be as well.
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 08:10:00 AM »
One or more TGC articles gives contributors credibility when they turn up in my inbox in answer for a specific call for writers or if they are trying to pitch me a proposal. In some cases, a track record in articles may mean that a request from me arrives in their inbox.

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 08:10:20 AM »
You've grabbed me by the ears and are shaking my beard till the crumbs fall out, Thom!

I look forward to hearing more over time; feel free to message me if there's any way I may assist you & yr colleagues.

I am now off to dip my head in a bucket of dreams; good night!
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 09:07:10 AM »
Point being, if you think writing is going to get you rich take a look at someone like Michael Stackpole.  Great writer (IMO), but not exactly raking in the cash.  He's making a living at it, but likely not as good a living as many of us here.

If I was able to make a living at it, I wouldn't worry about getting rich, and would count myself as being well ahead of the game. I would have the same opinion of my work that I had back when I was barely making a living as a stagehand:

"It's beautiful, because I don't have to work for a living at all. I play for a living. But since people are paying me for it, I play hard."

Thank you Thom, for your critique. That has always been my frustration with any work whose "success" is defined subjectively by the audience, and yet is not a "performance" so to speak, so you don't get that feedback in real time. How can you improve your craft if you can't find out what you do well and what you do poorly?

 :o

Quote
I appreciate that people take the time to submit any article and I'd hate to have my negative comments impact their desire to write more...

I can understand that, and I can't speak for anyone but myself in terms of the impact it has... but for myself, I need the negative feedback more than I need the positive. And I can't help feeling that if your ego is too fragile to survive a negative response, whatever could you be thinking doing work that by its very nature cannot be considered "successful" without being judged by hundreds, thousands or even millions of random strangers?
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