Author Topic: XP... what system of rewards do you use?  (Read 9796 times)

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Offline Pazuzu

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2016, 12:57:55 PM »

Myself, I prefer a flat amount of XP for any player who showed up.

I have always avoided such approaches, both as a GM and as a player.

My view is that players, and thus their characters, should be rewarded for their efforts, both individually and as a group. It almost always frustrates the player who is trying hard to accomplish things, either on a character's agenda or in the overall story, to be getting the same xp as the guy who just sits there like a sponge and whose only dialogue is "did I kill it?"

This is why I like the RMFRP xp system the most. It is RAW, so everyone can see exactly how it works and what to expect. It allows me as the GM to award group xp for the adventure while giving the players xp based on what they actually do and accomplish. And since Rolemaster is a skill based system, everyone no matter their profession has something to do.

The individual xp awards allow players to advance based on their effort, while the group awards allow less active players to get something.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2016, 01:02:56 PM »
I also prefer a combination of individual and group awards (for much the same reasons Pazuzu puts forward), and I prefer awarding XPs to giving out DPs. Typically I do XPs at the end of every session and have them ready to award at the start of the next. Since I tend to run more open-ended campaigns, "when the adventure's over" isn't always clear-cut.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2016, 01:06:29 PM »
When I ran GURPS, I gave XP for only three things:
* Making progress towards goals
* Roleplay


What's the third?


*  Mindreading       ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Thot

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2016, 01:50:04 PM »

Myself, I prefer a flat amount of XP for any player who showed up.

I have always avoided such approaches, both as a GM and as a player.

My view is that players, and thus their characters, should be rewarded for their efforts, both individually and as a group. It almost always frustrates the player who is trying hard to accomplish things, either on a character's agenda or in the overall story, to be getting the same xp as the guy who just sits there like a sponge and whose only dialogue is "did I kill it?"

People being frustrated because others get something they get, too? I have never encountered that problem. But I have seen power differences in player characters ruining it for the group as a whole.

But then again, none of my players over all these years could be described as a "sponge". :)

Offline vector

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2016, 04:19:35 PM »
thats looks reall
y interesting. far simpler than all the number crunching that normally goes on. how many adventures does it take them to level up?
i like the advancing personal goal award. ill use that.

I'd say on average it can take 6 - 8 full sessions for my players to gain a level. I just have to be careful not to be too liberal with my interpretation of words like "advanced", "well" and "difficult".

We all like to goof off, sometimes too much, so the "played in the spirit of the genre" reward helps keep us all in line.


Offline Pazuzu

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2016, 09:43:10 PM »

People being frustrated because others get something they get, too?

At the risk of delving into politics, this is the crux of the difference between socialism and capitalism.

In the realm of this discussion, it is "get" versus "earn". It is human nature to want to be rewarded for one's effort. When the reward is unequal for equal effort, or when the reward is the same for different levels of effort, it takes away the incentive for making the effort. If all you have to do is show up, players may not take greater risks when there is no greater reward.

Let's take an example.

Player A works his butt off in the game. Researching clues, thinking of clever tactics, working out the logistics of hauling rations and loot, and being bold and adventurous.

And then there is Player B. He spends most of the night eating Cheetos and the group's snacks. He will roll the dice when it is his turn to make an attack in the combat round. But that is about all he is good for.

So in Scenario 1, we use the earned xp method. Player A gets more xp than Player B because he made the effort and did more. Player A is pleased because his rewards matched his effort. Players C through F see that Player A earned more xp, and they endeavor to increase their efforts in the next session. Player B may or may not care that he earned less xp. But if he wants to earn more, all he has to do is up his game.

In Scenario 2, we use the flat xp method. Player A pushes the envelope and pulls off all kinds of epic stuff. Player B grabs a Mountain Dew to go with his Cheetos. Everyone gets the same xp just for showing up and being able to fog a mirror. Player B keeps on keeping on just as always, because why take any chances when the rewards are always the same. Player A sees that it doesn't matter what he does, he will get the same participation trophy. So next session, he sits down and says "pass the Cheetos".

While these examples are to the extreme, this is done to make the point. If everyone at a table is pleased with getting the same rewards no matter the efforts made, then more power to them. In my thirty plus years of gaming, I have never seen this to be the case.

Giving everyone a participation trophy for showing up may make the mothers happy, but the players, or at least the ones with even the smallest amount of drive, think it sucks.

The same feelings tend to apply to the RPG table as well. Players are motivated to succeed and do cool things. The GM rewards these efforts and successes by handing out xp and treasure. Not every group can fill all of the chairs at the table with their preferred player type. Some of us have to take what we can get. That means one player may be Captain America, while the guy next to him is a sponge.

One of the things that I have found to work well to motivate a better and more full participation is the use of individual rewards. This is the carrot that can motivate most players. There are a few players out there who this will not work on. Then the trick is to find what does motivate them.

But if you get stuck with someone who is simply content to sit there and eat Cheetos, then the other players at least get someone to detect traps the hard way and to soak up some crits when they try to Leeroy Jenkins their way into the next room.

It's all good either way.

Offline Thot

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM »

People being frustrated because others get something they get, too?

At the risk of delving into politics, this is the crux of the difference between socialism and capitalism.
[...]

But there's a significant difference here: XP are not a scarce resource. You, the GM, create them as needed with a wave of your hand. So there is no need to prioritize here.

Second, at a gaming table, you come together to have a good time. For many people (those that we all prefer to play with, for obvious reasons), actually playing the game is the fun part, and the XP reward is just a nice drop of honey on top of it. So we cannot sincerely claim that the XP reward alone will motivate anyone to do anything.

There is also one similarity to the real world, though: Power differences can ruin it for everybody. In the real world, that's super-rich oligarchs who run everything and make the poor suffer just to be more rich (like in Russia, for instance). Those people demonstratably make society less fun for eveyone, even themselves on the long run. They're just too short-sighted to understand that.

At a gaming table, it is the high-level wizard who blasts through every opponent without the low-level fighter even having a chance to do anything... which makes the whole game a solitary experience with spectators, instead of a fun group endeavor.

So what one wants to do is to not let power differences get out of hand, and have people have a good time - complete with a drop of honey at the end.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2016, 12:17:04 PM »
For those who do flat awards regardless of effort, how do you actually keep the more engaged players motivated? As a fairly motivated player (heavy background stories, staying in character, and so on), I always found it disheartening when the Cheetos-munching player advanced at the same rate I did, and usually reaped the same rewards as well (most GMs I've gamed with who did flat rewards also insisted on splitting treasure and similar stuff the same way). It's all well and good to talk about the companionship of the gaming table and all that, but if you're carrying deadweight there's not much companionship going on.

I never did flat rewards, but I also structured my XPs to create some parity in terms of awards. Sure, some did earn more than others, but on the whole the advance rate was fairly close. I think it's possible to keep a certain level of party balance while still rewarding solid play.
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Offline vector

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2016, 01:00:37 PM »
(most GMs I've gamed with who did flat rewards also insisted on splitting treasure and similar stuff the same way).

How did that work? Are you referring treasure creation, where the GM places items that can be useful to every member of the party? Or are you saying that the GM would actively tell the players how to split up the monetary rewards and who to give what items?

Offline jdale

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2016, 02:02:30 PM »
When I ran GURPS, I gave XP for only three things:
* Making progress towards goals
* Roleplay


What's the third?

*  Mindreading       ;D ;D ;D

+100 XP sir!

I originally was going to write "having goals" as a separate bullet point.


I don't see any issues with giving equal XP, although it depends on your players. If they are competitive and need some incentives to play in the way the GM wants, it might be better to have individual XP. But then there's more obligation on the part of the GM to give similar opportunities for XP and similar rewards for actions. If a character is a specialist whose specialty doesn't come up as often, and therefore has fewer opportunities to earn XP, is that the fault of the player for picking the wrong sort of character, or the fault of the GM for not writing the campaign to give that character a fair amount of focus? If the GM neglects a character and then also penalizes the character with less XP as a result, it makes the situation worse. As they fall behind, their skills become less and less relevant and then there are even fewer opportunities to earn XP (depending on how you award XP).

Our gaming groups tend to be less competitive so we don't feel we need individual XP. One of the GMs I am playing with still gives individual XP because he "doesn't want to give people something they haven't earned", I guess a sort of anti-communist attitude. But face it, the party is a communist enterprise, we pool all our money and assign magic items on the basis of need, not effort. :)


In our LARP, we always give flat rate XP, because it would be too difficult to be fair with subjective rewards. And consequently people worry about their character goals and roleplaying, not about how much XP they will earn.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2016, 02:28:20 PM »
My experience is similar to that of JDale. The party functions as an autonomous collective (just had to quote Monty Python!) rather than a capitalist competition. Maybe it is because we are Canadian  ;) Magic items are distributed according to need or who could use them best.

I've never had to give anyone incentive to play, but then again, I don't demand much role-playing; some players are just not that into making up voices or acting out scenarios (they are more combat/gamist/simulationist focused), and prefer to narrate what their characters do. Those of us who do like a bit more vigorous roleplaying (like me) just do it, but we don't expect rewards for it; we do it because we have more fun that way.
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Offline tbigness

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2016, 02:53:50 PM »
I give group and individual XP. The group reward is for the accomplishment in the story line and achievement of group goals so far. The individual ones are for being in character and performing side goals to enhance character story lines. The group XP is the greater amount and will generally bring PC's up at the same leveling. The personal XP will only really affect one level out of 5-6 levels played at the most or no affect in the least.
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Offline Thot

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2016, 04:40:05 PM »
For those who do flat awards regardless of effort, how do you actually keep the more engaged players motivated? As a fairly motivated player (heavy background stories, staying in character, and so on), I always found it disheartening when the Cheetos-munching player advanced at the same rate I did, and usually reaped the same rewards as well (most GMs I've gamed with who did flat rewards also insisted on splitting treasure and similar stuff the same way).

NPC's. The NPC's will recognize those people they observed doing important stuff, people they regard as heroes, and will make it clear when someone is more or less seen as a sidekick. You can even create additional fun by inverting this, and have at some point have the most inactive player be the "hero" in the locals' eyes, a bit like the Firefly Episode "Jaynestown". :D

That said, I usually don't observe any need for that. People who enjoy playing will do so intrinsically, people who are more passive will enjoy that just as much.


By the way, in the past, I also tried a different approach: Each player got a pool of XP to distribute among his fellow players. But it almost always ended with equal points for everyone.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2016, 06:47:03 AM »
When I ran GURPS, I gave XP for only three things:
* Making progress towards goals
* Roleplay


What's the third?

*  Mindreading       ;D ;D ;D

+100 XP sir!

SCORE!!!

Wait.... is that 100 individual XP or the entire group got 100XP?   ;D

OK, back onto topic.  Our group was fortunate enough to have 4-5 players who GM'd and we rotated pretty frequently so everyone got to play and we had a mix of methods for GM's awarding XP.  There were some sessions where the flat XP for the group just worked.  As much as I don't like flat XP, I can't deny that sometimes it just works. 

Example: The group was in between major events in the campaign.  Searching for info, looking for our next direction, resupplying.  Lots of role play, little "action" or dice rolling.  In those instances, the flat amount seemed to work.  But there was one GM who was notorious for just doing flat XP for a session and there was a definite change in the feel of the game and the players' effort they put into the session. 

After a year of gaming with the group, I picked up on it more and what I thought was just good-natured ribbing  at the GM was more akin to mild complaining about the flat XP method.  I'll admit, one time, after a particularly long session where my PC had a major role, I really felt slighted by flat XP because the "Cheeto-eater" who was doing his homework and tutoring a student for Bio/Chem class and who wasn't really paying attention to the game was awarded the same amount of XP.  We had to get his attention and tell him to roll the dice and add whatever skill.  He rolled, said the total, then went back to tutoring.  He didn't even care what the results of his actions were!  The GM could have easily rolled for him.  I realized 'more' what they were referring to and why they were complaining about it.

I give group and individual XP. The group reward is for the accomplishment in the story line and achievement of group goals so far. The individual ones are for being in character and performing side goals to enhance character story lines. The group XP is the greater amount and will generally bring PC's up at the same leveling. The personal XP will only really affect one level out of 5-6 levels played at the most or no affect in the least.

I do the same, as I mentioned in an earlier post.  All of the players get XP for the session ( I believe is mentioned in RM2: ChL&CaL), then I add in as best I'm able XP for the high rolls, the crits, the killing blows, the damage done, damage taken (that's all learning experience....) "Hey, I SHOULDN'T block the mace with my face!", etc.

It keeps all of the players still earning some points and somewhat closer in levels and by being present they do contribute to the group, yes even if they are only sitting there eating Cheetos.  The NPC's attacking have to consider the Cheeto-eater PC as a threat, or the party can use the Cheeto-eater as cannon fodder... Which we may or may not have done on occasion to some sponge players, which I cannot confirm nor deny at this point in time. LOL  Whether they wanted to or not, the sponge did contribute to the party to some extent.

This is just what works for our group.  What's nice is that it keeps the players still somewhat close in level, but the more active players get a little more reward but it shouldn't outpace the less active players by too much. 
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2016, 07:32:55 AM »
With the World of Darkness system, the flat XP seems to work well.  That's a game system we also play pretty frequently.  The system seems to lend itself well to the method of XP.  We've never had issues with that. 

Apologies for the multiple post.  I waited too long to modify my previous post.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2016, 11:24:32 AM »
(most GMs I've gamed with who did flat rewards also insisted on splitting treasure and similar stuff the same way).

How did that work? Are you referring treasure creation, where the GM places items that can be useful to every member of the party? Or are you saying that the GM would actively tell the players how to split up the monetary rewards and who to give what items?

This particular GM pooled treasure and money and assigned them using a mechanism he created to do this (mercenaries' guild).
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
And to track back to JDale's example, if it's a failure by the GM to design adventures which have potential for all characters, then YES I do blame the GM. A good GM should design things to allow for each character to contribute, or modify the design if that proves to not be the case. RM did a very poor job of allowing for non-combat XPs; something I house ruled as soon as I could.

The game that really soured me on equally dividing XPs was D&D (don't remember the exact edition, but it was what they came out with right after AD&D). I was playing a Ranger, which turned out to be the most combat-capable character in the group. The rest of the party was more optimized for stealth and lore (I think we had a bard, thief, and something else...maybe a cleric - no fighters to be seen). The GM's campaign was heavily combat-focused, so I got stuck doing almost all the fighting and party-saving. Almost went broke buying healing stuff, since they didn't pool for any of that (and tended to hide as soon as combat started). The guy playing the thief tended to miss about every other session, but he got as many XPs as everyone else. Eventually that stops being fun (at least for me).

Most of the modern games I've played base XPs on goal or mission accomplishment and skill use (Top Secret, Gangbusters, Old West and so on), and I borrowed from those ideas when I redid RM XPs. My system is a blend of shared and individual XPs, and I've found it works well. Of course it's also developed from trying to award XPs for a successful cattle drive, a shootout in the middle of town, and deciphering a coded message showing the location of a hidden waterhole that saved the drive. One character also got XPs for a series of skill rolls allowing him to head off a stampede.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2016, 11:47:36 AM »
Interesting stuff. I had no idea the struggles some GMs have to get their players to engage and pay attention. It's just never been a problem in our group except maybe with one player, whom we pretty quickly stopped inviting to our games.

I do kind of like what DnD 5e does with 'Inspiration'. Basically, characters get an inspiration point when the GM judges them to have done something particularly good (it can be good roleplaying, accomplishing a character goal, etc.). The character can then spend that inspiration point to reroll an attack, skill check, or saving throw. Characters can't have more than 1 inspiration point at a time. I'm thinking of doing something similar for my Rolemaster games. This would be less of an xp system and more of a system to reward good play though.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2016, 11:53:39 AM »
I do kind of like what DnD 5e does with 'Inspiration'. Basically, characters get an inspiration point when the GM judges them to have done something particularly good (it can be good roleplaying, accomplishing a character goal, etc.). The character can then spend that inspiration point to reroll an attack, skill check, or saving throw. Characters can't have more than 1 inspiration point at a time. I'm thinking of doing something similar for my Rolemaster games. This would be less of an xp system and more of a system to reward good play though.

That was close to how you got Hero points in the old James Bond RPG, except the points weren't capped and came from any QR1 skill success roll that DIDN'T result from combat (if I remember the name and ranking correctly, but I do know combat was specifically excluded from generating hero points). It specifically encouraged players to use their non-combat skills frequently, and you could use HPs to modify skill rolls (within limits...again, don't have the rules in front of me).
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Offline vector

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Re: XP... what system of rewards do you use?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2016, 01:46:59 PM »

This particular GM pooled treasure and money and assigned them using a mechanism he created to do this (mercenaries' guild).

Interesting.

I think if I tried that with my players I'd have the table overturned on me "Brian of KOTD fame" style.