Author Topic: HARP Folkways  (Read 14101 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Glenn_Gould

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2017, 05:50:58 AM »
I think a 6 rank skill (singing) slipped through the edition process, in the "Ululateors of Hark" training package. All the other training packages have been edited to match the "max 5 ranks per skill" rule, but here, public speaking got an extra rank which wasn't taken away from singing.

I like the extracted racial talents in the master talent list!

PS: https://www.qtrac.eu/diffpdf.html seems to be a nice way, to get a quick overview of changes between PDFs (showing them side-by-side with differences highlighted)

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2017, 08:45:58 PM »
Speaking of Training Packages, I'm a little confused by one skill with the "Ways of the Forestals". It gives you ranks in a specific Foraging/Survival subskill.
#LotorAllura2024

Offline jasonyarnell

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Point Values
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2017, 12:30:35 PM »
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?

Offline Bruce

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 724
  • OIC Points +553/-553
Re: Point Values
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2017, 01:08:32 PM »
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?
I don't believe either of those are selectable as talents. But if they were I would think they would go hand in hand, meaning you can't have Flight without Hollow Bones, though one might have Hollow Bones without Flight. Though I am not sure why someone would want that.

Hollow Bones as a talent by itself sounds more like a flaw and HARP does not currently use flaws.
When you game, game like you mean it! Game Hard!

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 07:24:29 AM »
Flight does have a value in HARP SF: 20 DP. In the Folkways Blood Talents Flight and Hollow Bones are paired for Faleeka.

As for HARP not using flaws, mostly true. Exceptions: several monster races as PCs, Krakur (SF), Silth (SF), and Faleeka (FW). At least for goblinoid races and Faleeka cross breeds, if you remove the talent the limitation is tied to the limitation is removed as well.
#LotorAllura2024

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,022
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Director of Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd.
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2017, 01:24:39 PM »
Speaking of Training Packages, I'm a little confused by one skill with the "Ways of the Forestals". It gives you ranks in a specific Foraging/Survival subskill.

Treat it as Foraging/Survival. It is a holdover.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,022
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Director of Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd.
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2017, 01:25:19 PM »
I think a 6 rank skill (singing) slipped through the edition process, in the "Ululateors of Hark" training package. All the other training packages have been edited to match the "max 5 ranks per skill" rule, but here, public speaking got an extra rank which wasn't taken away from singing.

I like the extracted racial talents in the master talent list!

PS: https://www.qtrac.eu/diffpdf.html seems to be a nice way, to get a quick overview of changes between PDFs (showing them side-by-side with differences highlighted)

Missed the spare Singing rank. Swap it for something else that works for you.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,022
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Director of Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd.
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2017, 01:30:39 PM »
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?

HARP SF has point values for Flight because it is more likely to be acquired by technological means. You can safely use those costs.

For races, we give three special abilities. Additional abilities will be paired with a suitable weakness. In HARP, unlike Rolemaster, I don't require races or professions to be exactly balanced in terms of DPs but they must fall within an acceptable range.

In due course, DP costs for many more talents will appear in HARP Bestiary.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline jasonyarnell

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2017, 09:13:26 PM »
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?

HARP SF has point values for Flight because it is more likely to be acquired by technological means. You can safely use those costs.

For races, we give three special abilities. Additional abilities will be paired with a suitable weakness. In HARP, unlike Rolemaster, I don't require races or professions to be exactly balanced in terms of DPs but they must fall within an acceptable range.

In due course, DP costs for many more talents will appear in HARP Bestiary.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm in the process of building my own races so having the costs separated and known are very helpful for me.

Offline jasonyarnell

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Natural Weapons
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2017, 11:36:46 AM »
Is there a point value for Natural Weapons?

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2017, 08:03:32 AM »
Noticed a few more of the Folkways TPs have the holdover of giving ranks in specific subskills.
#LotorAllura2024

Offline Radimon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Natural Weapons
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2018, 05:24:02 AM »
Is there a point value for Natural Weapons?

In Harp SF, it's listed as 10 points, and it lets you specify what type of damage it does on your own. You could even specify different damage types, based on how you envision it (claws could be either slashing or piercing, for example).

In fact, I think the way the Faleeka gets two different Natural Weapon talents, and therefore has to receive the Hollow Bones penalty is... questionable, at best. If I were to run a game, I'd count both the talons and beak as a single talent, as we've seen them do with the halfling's resistance to heat and cold (it's even the same point value!). I'd then allow players to simply ignore Hollow Bones entirely. 20 points for Flight, 15 for Lesser Peripheral Vision, and 20 for a combined pair of Natural Weapons (again, I stress, questionable) wouldn't even put them above half of the races in the core rules in terms of DP of racial talents (gryx: 60, elves: 55, dwarves: 55 PLUS Stone Sense!), let alone move them into first place (70, held by the navrothor from Folkways).
Murphy's Law says 'Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.'

I think Murphy was an incurable optimist.

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2018, 07:59:59 AM »
After looking at both SF and Folkways, I think Halflings should have their temperature resistance split into two talents. It's the only race that has a single talent that's actually two. Faleeka get the Hollow Bones penalty because of Flight, not their natural weapons. They are more bird-like than the Gorsiva, who despite looking like birds fly more like a combined flying squirrel with pufferfish (couldn't think of any more appropriate animal), plus they only have three racial talents. As you can probably tell, I'm not that much a fan of "handwavium".
#LotorAllura2024

Offline Radimon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2018, 06:40:37 PM »
Zhaleskra, Nicholas has already said in this thread that if a race has more than 3 talents, they automatically give it a drawback to compensate. Faleeka flight/hollow bones is the prototypical example of this. They are given four talents: peripheral vision, flight, talons, and beaks. Neither talons nor beaks are 100% necessary for a race of birdmen with viable flight to feel complete. Even if you insist on including natural weapons like this, one or the other would do just fine. There's no real game balance reason to have two of them. However, ICE went ahead and added hollow bones - often a literally crippling vulnerability - for what is ALSO essentially no reason, aside from how the race has four talents. Combining the redundant natural weapons together in order to remove the rationale for a completely and utterly unnecessary vulnerability is not unreasonable.

Giving Faleeka hollow bones was the unreasonable action.

Let's break down my experience playing a faleeka.

Bandits jump out of the woods. Combat starts in earnest. I take to the skies and start casting an attack spell (an enhanced arcane bolt, I think it was). One of the bandits shoots a sling stone my way, and barely hits my guy. But it's crushing damage, and down I go, literally and figuratively.

Rest in Peace, Evinosso Limiven.

In a nutshell, that's my experience with the faleeka race: a couple of in-town setup scenes, and a couple of rounds of combat, and a couple of incidents of damage.

One: You're hit by a pebble. 15 CH damage, 2 rounds of stun, -20 penalty.

Two: You're hit by a planet. Instant kill.

No one should have something like that as their first experience with this game. It especially should not be inflicted upon them merely because the the guys at ICE wanted to add both beaks and talons to their first flying race.
Murphy's Law says 'Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.'

I think Murphy was an incurable optimist.

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2018, 09:34:04 AM »
We've already established that I strongly disagree with you, so there's nowhere else to go on that road.

Your GM allowed taking off and casting a spell on the same round?
How many ranks did your characters have in Flying/Gliding?
You didn't put ranks into Endurance in a game I assume you knew had a deadly combat system?
Your GM did make a mistake by deciding that the stun instantly made you fall. Sure, there are penalties for flying, and I'd probably have required a Will RR to stay airborne in addition to the Stamina RR for Stun.
I assume the hit by a planet bit is embellishment.
Sometimes I have had to remind players about Fate Points, did you forget about them?
#LotorAllura2024

Offline Radimon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2018, 03:09:34 PM »
First of all, I took off in the first round and began casting in the second. It was at the end of the second round that I got hit by the sling.

6 ranks in both Flying and Endurance. We were level 1.

My stamina RR was low against the stun. Being stunned applies a 50 point penalty to all subsequent actions. That, plus the 10 point penalty from the sling (doubled to 20, since it's an entry on the crushing table that specifically mentions broken bones) meant I had a 70 point penalty when I made a Flying maneuver to stay airborne. With that big a penalty, rolling poorly and therefore getting well below 0 on a Flying maneuver was what one could expect.

Ergo, I fell.

By that point, I'd already placed my miniature over the river, which was below us in the gorge, in order to be out of range of the brigands advancing across the rickety rope bridge with swords, but no bows in sight. Getting hit by a brigand who also happened to have a sling was surprising, to say the least.

But I digress.

The point is, being over the gorge meant I fell over a hundred feet, which in and of itself is a large crushing critical. Hollow bones bumps that up to huge, and when the GM rolled the damage roll, he rolled in the 96-100 range.

Twice.

What's the result on the critical table for when OB is more than 280 points above the effective DB? Instant death.

Ergo, I smashed into the ground, dying instantly on impact. So yes, I got hit with a planet, thanks to the attack roll made by gravity (that's how the falling rules work).

For the record, your post is the first I'd heard of fate points. Even after playing several sessions after the one in question, nobody has ever used any, nor mentioned using them. I don't know if our GM even allows fate points.
Murphy's Law says 'Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.'

I think Murphy was an incurable optimist.

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2018, 10:56:31 PM »
Seriously? No one's mentioned Fate Points until now? The PCs in my game that's on indefinite hiatus due to work knew from the beginning they had them available, though some good hits on them I did have to reminded them about them. It also helped that I had enemies that were working to take the PCs alive.

Your initial critical description mentioned nothing about bones.
#LotorAllura2024

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2018, 10:56:24 AM »
I figured out how you could end up with a Running Fly rate of 100. So, sling man still hit you even with the -30 for range?
#LotorAllura2024

Offline Radimon

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2018, 06:04:01 PM »
Keep in mind, this fight was happening on a bridge over a gorge, with the river banks about 50 feet below us. I went up and to the side in order to get away from the danger (or so I thought). Going up 50 more feet and a bit to the side meant I wasn't far enough away for him to get more than a -20 penalty. Thing is, he still managed to hit me by about 45 points, even with that penalty (lesson 1: soft leather armor is for doodoo on defense, unless you also have agile defense and high agility).

A sling is normally small crushing damage, but hollow bones increases that to medium, and therefore no size penalty on the critical table. I was in midair over the gorge when I got hit, so I fell not only the distance down to the height of the bridge, but also the distance from there to the banks of the river.
Murphy's Law says 'Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.'

I think Murphy was an incurable optimist.

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: HARP Folkways
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2018, 10:41:24 PM »
Another case you could have used Fate Points for. Granted, I do give new players a session buffer (3-5 sessions) where I won't permanently damage their characters. I also ran a gladiatorial combat sessions with pregens with a player to show how the combat system works.

There are possible other penalties the guard should have had, possibly from armor and encumbrance. Yes, high Ag and St help with any armors, and soft leather is meant to be bargain basement. I know piecemeal gets slammed, but one video by Shad mentioned medieval workers making enough money to buy decent armor (though usually not all at once), and suggested getting the most important pieces first (cuirass/vest or shirt) and helmet so you don't blow your year's (or more) salary on a full suit of armor. At the same time, I think limiting what armor a character can wear and still fly is a good idea.

Did your GM apply the stun penalty and crit penalty to your Stamina RR?
#LotorAllura2024