Author Topic: Arachnemancy List  (Read 1731 times)

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Offline Mordrig

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Arachnemancy List
« on: August 23, 2017, 01:16:55 PM »
Ok, so level 1 spell is Spider Familiar - Great good spell, now the spell says "The caster can attune himself (or herself) to a "normal" spider to serve as a familiar.  The caster must obtain the spider through normal means (can be no more than 10% of the casters mass)" 
Moving up the list, there is Lesser Spider Summons - This spell summons a Lesser Great Spider.  A Lesser Great Spider is 1'-2' in size, (seems to meet the 10% rule) and once summoned is there in the room (or wherever) so can this spider then have Spider Familiar cast on it?  I have a player who feels this is legit, and I think he was extremely patient to wait to reach level 7 to use this spell.  My only real question is; is a summoning spell considered "Normal" means AND is a Lesser Great Spider in Any way considered a "Normal" Spider?

I feel he has to get a No on the "Normal" Spider rule.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 02:10:12 PM »
I would say that a Giant spider is not a normal spider.
I would also say that the lesser giant spider was magically summoned and would disappear at the end of the spell so I think it fails on both counts.
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 02:35:30 PM »
So, basically where I was going.  Thanks

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 01:19:13 AM »
So... why do you figure the 10% rule is there? Given that no real-world spider weighs even half a pound. I'd say "normal" means no magical powers or human-like intelligence, not necessarily within real world parameters. A lesser Great Spider is just a big spider. I could certainly see insisting that he find one in the wild, rather than summoning it, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason to forbid it as a familiar on either game balance grounds (using it as a familiar and as an assassin would be a dangerous game) or on world-internal grounds (as far as someone living in a RM world would be concerned, a lesser Great Spider is just a really big spider, though the other Great Spiders are something more). It'd be more durable than an housecat (assuming average specimens), but not quite so durable as a ferret. The venom is really the only significant advantage, and you don't really want your familiar going into combat if you can avoid it, so that doesn't seem like big deal, especially as anyone could develop some animal handling and buy some big war dogs which can be treated as expendable.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 01:51:32 AM »
So... why do you figure the 10% rule is there? Given that no real-world spider weighs even half a pound. I'd say "normal" means no magical powers or human-like intelligence, not necessarily within real world parameters. A lesser Great Spider is just a big spider. I could certainly see insisting that he find one in the wild, rather than summoning it, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason to forbid it as a familiar on either game balance grounds (using it as a familiar and as an assassin would be a dangerous game) or on world-internal grounds (as far as someone living in a RM world would be concerned, a lesser Great Spider is just a really big spider, though the other Great Spiders are something more). It'd be more durable than an housecat (assuming average specimens), but not quite so durable as a ferret. The venom is really the only significant advantage, and you don't really want your familiar going into combat if you can avoid it, so that doesn't seem like big deal, especially as anyone could develop some animal handling and buy some big war dogs which can be treated as expendable.

I guess if you are an extremely small race such as a pixie or Sylph then the 10% is significantly smaller mass.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 06:43:08 AM »
I would say that a Giant spider is not a normal spider.
I would also say that the lesser giant spider was magically summoned and would disappear at the end of the spell so I think it fails on both counts.

On the first point, we've taken "normal" to mean non-magical powers, no special abilities, no glowing eyes, no flying etc.  It's a spider... this one happens to be freaking huge.  It's like the movies... the kids aren't magical, they just got shrunk.  They aren't the "traditional" size, but they aren't magical either.  We always applied the same to summoning spells.  The spider was created magically, but it's just a spider and it's pretty darn big.

Agreed, the summoned spider would disappear at the end of the spell's duration.  If he were to try to make it a familiar... he would suffer the penalties for the loss of the familiar when the spider spell ends.
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Offline Dragonking11

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 07:52:30 AM »
So... why do you figure the 10% rule is there? Given that no real-world spider weighs even half a pound. I'd say "normal" means no magical powers or human-like intelligence, not necessarily within real world parameters. A lesser Great Spider is just a big spider. I could certainly see insisting that he find one in the wild, rather than summoning it, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason to forbid it as a familiar on either game balance grounds (using it as a familiar and as an assassin would be a dangerous game) or on world-internal grounds (as far as someone living in a RM world would be concerned, a lesser Great Spider is just a really big spider, though the other Great Spiders are something more). It'd be more durable than an housecat (assuming average specimens), but not quite so durable as a ferret. The venom is really the only significant advantage, and you don't really want your familiar going into combat if you can avoid it, so that doesn't seem like big deal, especially as anyone could develop some animal handling and buy some big war dogs which can be treated as expendable.

I think I agree with rdanhenry and Specter here ... The 10% serves no purpose if the spider familiar can only be a normal "earthly" spider that is soooooo tiny that a random wind blow or accolade with a buddy kills your familiar and gives you a two weeks severe penalty ...

I would definitely allow attuning to a lesser Great Spider in my game as this will not disrupt the power level of the campaigns anyway

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2017, 08:52:53 AM »
Reminds me of an awesome quote I read but I cannot for the life of me remember where, or the full quote.  I'll paraphrase as best as I'm able....

Everyone is afraid of the big spiders.  Why?  You know where they are.  It's the little ones you have to watch out for.  They're just as deadly except you can't see them!


* - If someone knows where that quote came from, please post here to give proper credit to the author. :-)
If discretion is the better valor and
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 09:16:45 AM »
The problem is that it just won't work. In order to turn an animal into a familiar, a caster has to "cast the spell on the animal once per day for one week (concentrating for two hours a day). Considering the "Lesser spider summons" spell's duration is 1 min/lvl, and there's no guarantee caster summons the same spider every time (meaning the one on which he had previously cast the "Familiar" spell), it can hardly work.
Also, a goliath birdeater tarantula can reach a leg span of up to 28 cm, so that's hardly "soooooo tiny"...
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Dragonking11

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 09:44:58 AM »
The problem is that it just won't work. In order to turn an animal into a familiar, a caster has to "cast the spell on the animal once per day for one week (concentrating for two hours a day). Considering the "Lesser spider summons" spell's duration is 1 min/lvl, and there's no guarantee caster summons the same spider every time (meaning the one on which he had previously cast the "Familiar" spell), it can hardly work.
Also, a goliath birdeater tarantula can reach a leg span of up to 28 cm, so that's hardly "soooooo tiny"...

Points taken  ;)

The fact remains that in a fantasy world, I see no reason to prevent attuning to a lesser great spider. As you say, a summoned spider would not work and it should be captured through "normal means" in order to cast the Familiar spell (normal means as in putting it to sleep or something and throwing it into a cage)

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2017, 04:34:52 AM »
The fact remains that in a fantasy world, I see no reason to prevent attuning to a lesser great spider.
Oh, that, I'd agree, especially since a lesser great spider is merely, at best, twice as big as the biggest RL one (the aforementioned goliath birdeater tarantula, which is venomous, BTW, though its urticating hairs is more likely to be a problem to human beings, so a lesser great spider is not much more dangerous; I mean, if you wanted something dangerous, you'd better go with a Mediterranean black widow, a tiny spider —10-15 mm— about which "there are reports of this species biting and killing camels"). I was merely commenting on the feasibility to turn a summoned one into a familiar.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Malim

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Re: Arachnemancy List
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2017, 05:42:44 AM »
In a fantasy setting a greater spider lets say 20 pounds.. is normal in some kinda sense.
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