Author Topic: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?  (Read 4874 times)

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« on: March 11, 2017, 10:33:14 AM »
imo the standard RM combat rules make having a large entourage problematic due to slow combat resolution.
How many NPC's do you allow to join he party and go on e=adventures with them?

Offline Hurin

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 10:55:11 AM »
imo the standard RM combat rules make having a large entourage problematic due to slow combat resolution.
How many NPC's do you allow to join he party and go on e=adventures with them?

As few as possible, due to the problem you mentioned of slower combat. But sometimes the party needs a healer.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 12:13:12 PM »
imo the standard RM combat rules make having a large entourage problematic due to slow combat resolution.
How many NPC's do you allow to join he party and go on e=adventures with them?

As few as possible, due to the problem you mentioned of slower combat. But sometimes the party needs a healer.

this seems to be a common theme. Slow combat resolution = battles with large number of combatants = snail pace combat.
i dont know if ive cracked the code on this exactly but ive been using the super fast combat system from RMCIII.
we also play on Roll20 platform now so we have marcos which allow you to programme in weapon OB and roll damage at the click of a button.

Iv eliminated the three main issues that slowed large scale combat (8+ combatants).
1) table referencing
2) adding up damage dice
3) numerous crits and lag caused by ongoing crit effects (penalties, stun, hits per round etc)

Roll20 also has a hand initiative tracker so you it orders all the initiative scores and you go down the list, click on each combatant and away you go.

i only allow crits on open ended rolls rules u are using ambush. Its not to everyone taste. Its just how my group play. we have tried a few variants and have come up with an interesting blend of table combat and Super Fast Combat.

We are actually going to use table combat again but only for 1-1 battles. I quite like this idea as thats when the table referencing is manageable and it makes the 1-1 battles different and slower and more detailed. Just like they would be in an epic movie where the villain has an epic showdown with the hero :)

The biggest benefit of using the super fast combat is that you CAN more easily manage larger battles with more combatants. Right now we have 5 player characters. They typically hang our with a handful on NPC allies, especially on dangerous missions.

The odd NPC dies in combat, thats expected but they can also advance in levels and upgrade skills similar to PCs can. Its a bit like a company. You have new guys arrive and some stick it out and some leave (or die), the stalwarts the glue guys hang in here and eventually get promoted up the ranks. They become part of the furniture and add to the setting. I quite like that. They are seen as an important element and help drive the story although they are in the background and when they do die, its a little sad when they are gone. This is how it should be. They shouldnt be used as JUST fodder for enemies. They might even become a villain or henchman of a villain if they are mistreated :) that happens all the time in the real world, but more commonly in movies... the worker who is mistreated vows to have their revenge, the last laugh.

it would be busy as but i could run a combat of 16 characters, maybe more with a little practice. As long as the players are making decisive decisions themselves. We have a player who is notorious for slow rolling his decisions. If he had his way he would take 15minutes to decide what OB/DB he was using and ask at least 5 questions about the surrounding environment... in the heat of battle! dont worry i speed hi up. he misses his opportunity if he doesnt think faster. one-on-one? now thats different we play as slow as you like. Its your show too.

Offline jdale

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 01:15:23 PM »
I've run very large battles with dozens of allies and similar numbers of enemies. Using software to track combat helps a great deal but for a lot of the unimportant NPCs, I just abstracted down to a roll "is he dead yet? is his opponent dead yet?". For important characters fighting in the room with the PCs, I made real rolls and tracked accordingly.

But that aside, I prefer not to put NPCs in the party. My feeling is that making an NPC part of the party takes attention away from the PCs. It provides a mouthpiece for the GM to tell the players what to do (whether directly or indirectly by giving them information) and does some of the work for the PCs. I would rather leave the in-party discussions to be discussions between the players, and let them do all the work. If I want them to have certain abilities available that they don't currently have, I can give them herbs or magic items without adding an NPC. That's not to say they can't interact with NPCs -- which they should -- but those NPCs don't need to be omnipresent.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 01:41:58 PM »
I've run very large battles with dozens of allies and similar numbers of enemies. Using software to track combat helps a great deal but for a lot of the unimportant NPCs, I just abstracted down to a roll "is he dead yet? is his opponent dead yet?". For important characters fighting in the room with the PCs, I made real rolls and tracked accordingly.


Yup, this.  More work by a bit, but this for me.

-Pregame, Note how many times a Max damage hit a particularly used weapon can do against each NPC's AT.
This is a benchmark to gauge how many times either can be hit within the mass battle before being removed.
For Militia this can be reflected by John's number of one, most times, or higher depending on "strength, discipline, or numbers".
Multiply the number by however many combatants per side there are to get an Army HP total.

-Roll d10s for each foe and ally - easier if using different coloured dice(dark vs light colours, heh).
Group the two opposing colour schemes byway of however they fall closest to one another in a horizontal line on the table or sort them from highest to lowest or however else you want to skew things.
Run down the d10s and for every side that is lower, put a tally mark on that side's space.

-Cross hatch every 5th tally mark for ease of counting, like normal.
At a certain amount of loss(25/50/75 or 33/66), have a side make a 1st LvL vs 1st LvL RR to rout - you can even make this easier or harder as per "strength, discipline, or numbers" mention above by increasing either side's level, or allowing bonuses based upon the Race makeup of the opposing armies’ Will or SD Bonii.

This is actually nice and fast, though looking at it, it is lengthy to report on, LOL!

Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 09:47:49 AM »
We've never let NPCs be "directly involved" in major gaming points.  Example; in combat, the NPC would be "fighting another target" or "he seems to be preparing a spell to cast."  We never involved any rolls for them.  They weren't the ones playing the game or earning XP for the session and were therefore just additional persona that the GM controlled anyway.  Whatever the GM decided, that's what happened to them.  The only exceptions were if we had a player show up who wasn't really consistent in playing, so we'd give him an NPC to control for that session and it was no different than having a player and a PC for that session.  Similar to how we handled an actual player's PC if the player couldn't make it for a game night.  The GM just had that player do some things in the back ground and the PC was an NPC for the night.  There shouldn't be any slow down really for the GM unless he decided to treat the NPC as a PC and to make all of the rolls, but now he's no longer an NPC.

The caveat all of our players know is that adventuring NPCs are fodder.  Not the same as the shop keep NPC whom the players meet regularly, or the mayor of the town, the persistent NPCs.  There is an example in another thread where the party wants to hire an NPC Healer.  We would make him less "fodder" and more "persistent NPC persona" but the party now has to babysit the NPC.

I let a group of 12 NPC militia travel with the party and there was no slow down in combat.  The other militia were simply fighting other NPC baddies and I let a die roll determine how many militia died that day.  1D10/2.  Of the 12, 1-5 died or suffered game ending wounds that day, then we moved on.
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 01:34:27 PM »
Generally I do not allow NPC's to join the party.  That said last night we had 2 NPC's, neither survived the combat which was unfortunate, but hey it happens.
The rules allow a certain amount of natural healing with just an overnight rest.  So other than major damage which can happen easily in RM combat a healer is nice, but not an immediate need.  Most Channeling users learn the open Concussion's Way list for a quick HP top-up.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2017, 08:27:49 PM »
Four to five.  Four is nice from a time standpoint, but five tends to provide a significantly better profession diversity.  I'd usually have a single NPC in the party beyond that.  The 'Healer' of the part if there isn't one, otherwise one that simply helps drive the plot.
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Offline GamemasterAlf

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 10:28:49 PM »
it sounds like everyone seems to treat the NPC's as nobodies or cannon fodder
There is a major opportunities here to use them to add tot the game not just the side fight that no one pays attention to.

Yes i normally use NPC's to round out the group the missing healer or thief but you need to round them out. They can add so much
The healer who only just keeps you alive unless you convert
The thief who is constantly pocketing items instead of sharing with the group
The fighter who takes insult at almost everything and causes more fights outside of a dungeon than in
They all should have their own motivations themselves and their own personality
Yes they can help the group occasionally with info but this is limited to their field of knowledge only.
They are not omnipotent
But sometime using a mage NPC with this personal view could send the group into all the wrong places because "he knows better than you he has studied this at length" when he is just guessing

Many of you seem to be missing major opportunities by not developing an NPCs character as well

Offline Peter R

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2017, 04:56:41 AM »
I tend not to give the party an NPC healer. If they are lacking in that department then it is up to them to solve it though learning the right skills, spell lists and investing in the herbs. I do use NPCs that stay with the party and those that come and go as their own stories happen to intersect the parties.

The biggest combats I have run recently have been 6 bodies on the PCs side vs  30 enemy goblins and hobgoblins, the same PCS vs 15 kobolds, PCs vs 45 Gorcrows, PCs vs 60 class I & II undead. I don't find combat slows down that much. I use the condensed combat system so that eliminates most page flipping. I don't use any software though.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2017, 06:57:06 AM »
I tend not to give the party an NPC healer. If they are lacking in that department then it is up to them to solve it though learning the right skills, spell lists and investing in the herbs. I do use NPCs that stay with the party and those that come and go as their own stories happen to intersect the parties.

Ditto.

If the party wants a Healer with them, then someone rolls up a healer.  In our world, there are ample opportunity to get the help needed through potions, herbs, First/Second Aid, Surgery (LOL),  towns, etc. 

If a persistent NPC is with the party, it's because he's integral to the story line and he'll have his own quirks and storyline motives.
If discretion is the better valor and
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let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2017, 11:13:33 PM »
Generally if no one wants to play a healer type I'll toss in one if necessary. If no one finds playing that role fun, and one is going to be needed (i.e. we don't have other ways to solve the problem for the setting, etc) I see no reason to force a player to be one. After all, first and foremost, we play for fun.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 06:42:56 AM »
Generally if no one wants to play a healer type I'll toss in one if necessary. If no one finds playing that role fun, and one is going to be needed (i.e. we don't have other ways to solve the problem for the setting, etc) I see no reason to force a player to be one. After all, first and foremost, we play for fun.

Only a couple of times has someone opted to roll up a Healer type PC in our groups because they thought it would be good to have one for the campaign and we've always done fine for ourselves.  They aren't that popular I guess.  I started to roll one up for my self a while back but I never completed it.  There are healers in towns to varying degrees of skill, or healers in small towns and tribes.  We've never forced someone to play a PC type.  Everyone rolled up the PC they wanted.  We've restricted some PC types based on game setting though.
If discretion is the better valor and
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Offline Gauds00

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 07:10:41 AM »
I find the PCs naturaly gravitate toward a enjoyable gaming experience one PC was running a low level mage operating as a goblin king, he once took 20 goblins on the adventure. This many low disciplined creatures created more head aches for him that it was worth, then i really had some fun when they blundered into a flight of fellbeasts, somehow  one of the goblins survived and he became the new bodyguard, the pc who managed to flee and hide from the slaughter seemed happy with this as did the rest of the party. Then unless there was an actual battle the gobos stayed home.

Offline Pazuzu

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2017, 01:29:00 PM »
I've never really had this be a problem. Using the standard RMFRP XP rules, additional NPC combatants means the PCs would not gain as much XP from a combat.

And my players just looooooove their XP. So any retainers, lackeys, hirelings, helpers, i.e. the "Bob Squad" usually get left at camp.

In instances where ambushes happen and the Bob Squad is with the party at the time, the Bobs aren't nearly as effective as a PC. And so they tend to die fairly quickly/easily. And the costs for replacing Bobs (both financial and social) gets pretty steep after you lose enough. This also reduces the incentive for PCs to use Bobs in combat.

Offline DeadBob

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2017, 09:56:08 PM »
I have run campaigns with 0-1 NPC's and my Privateers campaign had as many as 60 NPC's (treated as one ship crew).

In my current fantasy campaign, which is a world and mythology I created from scratch, I run between 2 and 4 NPC's with my 5 players. Most of the NPCs are in the party for a limited period of time, to complete a particular mission or achieve a major goal. The one NPC I keep constant in the party is a lore heavy Bard to serve as an imperfect reference book for the geography, politics, and mythology of this new world. I plan to move that bard out (or maybe kill him off) once the players have enough information to run around the world without major structural questions.

Offline GamemasterAlf

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 11:53:09 AM »
I try to keep NPC's out as much as possible. That being said I do try to keep one in the group, even if that happens to be camp cook, pack carrier or the like.
Preferably a hireling or subordinate position to keep out of the gaming decisions

But I occasionally need to use them to nudge them the right way or give reminders that the characters should know but the players seem to have forgotten
"Oh you're looking for a cave Thought I seen one a mile back"
"Isn't that shortcut through the mountain pass you want to take an Orc stronghold?"

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 10:12:29 PM »
Re: slow combat time with large amounts of comabtants: try War Law. 

All you need to do is convert the NPCs & PCs party into a WL Unit (easy to do with the normal RM2 stats) & use the WL combat rules.  One role & you can find out quickly what happens to your PCs and NPCs alike.  I've used this a few times when the combat got too big for the usual AL&CL combat rules.

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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2018, 10:36:51 PM »
NPCs are a GM tool IMO and mostly for non-combat purposes.  Why waste time rolling attacks etc?  Just have them do what you want to, add to the story when appropriate, and fade to the background again. 
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How many NPC allies do you allow in the party?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2018, 10:44:36 PM »
Four to five.  Four is nice from a time standpoint, but five tends to provide a significantly better profession diversity.  I'd usually have a single NPC in the party beyond that.  The 'Healer' of the part if there isn't one, otherwise one that simply helps drive the plot.
I realized that may be mistaken for 4-5 NPCs.  I should clarify... 4-5 players and a single regular NPC.
Other NPCs may join temporarily, but I wouldn't do more than one long term.
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