Topic: How powerful are you're pc's?

[Hurin]

Not really, because the bonuses were assigned by the players, not some random profession determined perk or what have you. I also didn't allow bonuses to go into skills that were not developed that level.

The latter is the same as RMU though: you only get the +1 professional bonus when you buy a rank, otherwise, you don't get anything.

[Ecthelion]

How much OB and DB would your players have in 10th lvl? How powerful multipliers and spell adders would they have? How big are the bonuses on magic weapons? etc

Our front-line fighters would typically have ab OB around 150 at 10th level. Bonus for weapons, armor and shields would be around +20 at that level. And with such gear the DB would usually be around 80-90 + spells like Blur.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Can you break down the OB for your 11th lvl warrior? I'm doing a lot of work on skill bonuses for high level NPCs and wondering how you got to 189.

Sure (so I'm surprised you're impressed by the OB of the warrior-class character and not of the semi-spell user but...)
* Level 0 + 11 levels: 24 skill ranks -> +74,
* ST/ST/AG bonus: +32,
* Level bonus: +22,
* Weapon bonus: +25,
* Soulbound weapon bonus: +11,
* Background special bonus for primary skill: +10,
* Magical item: +15.

I'm thinking the +3 level bonus is a bit much.

None of the characters I mentioned has a +3 level bonus. :p

[Ravenheart]

We are quite far here. We started at early -90's and we've played about 400 sessions in same campaign. Our groups highest level is 78lvl sorcerer, but 77lvl vampire is close behind. Then there's 60lvl witch, about 60 level Fire Elementalist, 50lvl armsmaster, 50 level Shaman and about 30 level Nightblade. I don't remember the levels so well because frankly, they don't matter so much any more. Of those characters, only 3 are "originals", others have come along during the road or when someone from originals died.
Best OB is about 400, but none have less than 250, items counting. Spells are quite formidable of course, but the players find it challenging to use them effectively because of various role-playing reasons.

We have several rules that make life difficult for high-level characters. They still find it difficult to succeed in Sheer Folly (world-class) actions and they still take every fight seriously enough, especially against Large creatures. Players still keep whining about how pitiful their characters are. It never ends, I suppose.

[B Hanson]

We are quite far here. We started at early -90's and we've played about 400 sessions in same campaign. Our groups highest level is 78lvl sorcerer, but 77lvl vampire is close behind. Then there's 60lvl witch, about 60 level Fire Elementalist, 50lvl armsmaster, 50 level Shaman and about 30 level Nightblade. I don't remember the levels so well because frankly, they don't matter so much any more. Of those characters, only 3 are "originals", others have come along during the road or when someone from originals died.
Best OB is about 400, but none have less than 250, items counting. Spells are quite formidable of course, but the players find it challenging to use them effectively because of various role-playing reasons.

We have several rules that make life difficult for high-level characters. They still find it difficult to succeed in Sheer Folly (world-class) actions and they still take every fight seriously enough, especially against Large creatures. Players still keep whining about how pitiful their characters are. It never ends, I suppose.

Ravenheart. I would be very interested in some more details on your high level games. I'm publishing and testing 50th level adventures and your running a much higher level campaign than that! Maybe you could write up a blog over at Rolemasterblog.com or some thoughts here on game balance, things that work, things that don't, use of high level and 50th level spells in normal game play, use of artifacts and powerful magic items. Typical encounters, types of adventure frameworks.

[Ravenheart]

Hi B Hanson,

I'm sorry I didn't notice your reply/request earlier than that.

Your question is a huge one and at the moment I don't know from where to begin.

We have of course written totally accurate and detailed Campaign Diaries but unfortunately those are in Finnish only. Reading those would have explained a lot.

First, we own every single RM book ever published (in paper versions) except 1st edition Boxed Set. We use some rules from every one so our system is quite an hybrid.

I'll start from the challenges. I've had to adjust the challenge level progression so that the normal "Hard -10" and "Extremely Hard -35" are actually percentages. So the character with Fly-spell who tries to do Extremely Hard Maneuver using his Fly skill of +250 would face the challenge of -35% leaving +163 as his skill. Make that Sheer Folly -50 attempt and it would be +125 before roll. Absurd -75 would leave just a +63. This is not used if the skill is <100. The same goes for every disadvantage the character has. If he has for example -20 from some wound, it would be -20% to any Moving Maneuver BUT only the highest percentage counts as a percentage. So if you have multiple minuses only the highest would be percentage and others normal minuses.

At some point we were seriously tired of normal skill checks to be either extremely successful (any roll  except low open-ended would succeed) or total disaster (rolls 1-5 usually). There seemed to be no middle ground or normal failures ever unless something very strange was attempted. That was contrary to real life when we sometimes fail in routine skill checks but not fumble dangerously. So we invented "UM Failure". UM Failure is the failure range above the Fumble Range that increases when the difficulty of the maneuver increases. With Medium it's 6-10 and with Sheer Folly it's 6-40. Hitting that range with UM D100 means something unpredictable but not so dangerous happens and the total skill bonus suffers -D100% disadvantage AND the percentage from the difficulty rating. So the player rolls D100 and cuts that away from his total bonus, then applies the original roll. This makes the players really consider harder than Very Hard (UM Failure range 6-20) attempts. For example player with +300 total skill bonus tries Extremely Hard (-35%) task with UM Failure of 6-35. The player rolls 30, hitting the range. He then rolls 88, reducing the bonus to +36. Then the original Extremely Hard -35 is taken away, leaving just +1. Add the initial roll of 30 and you'll have +31, a Failure.

This explains how the skill challenges are still really challenging even with very high skills bonuses.

I've not only taken away. I've added several additional Success Levels beyond an Absolute Success. There's Remarkable Success (231-350), Heroic Success (351-500) and Legendary Success (500+). If someone hits these epic levels they have far greater advantage in conflicts or otherwise.

Combat

In combat we have several options taken from a different Rolemaster generations. We have Combat Stances, Combat Styles and so on. We have two different ways to follow the combat actions: First is our own Action Point system that is highly modified version of RMC IV version. Every action imaginable in combat takes an certain amount of Action Points. An attack may take 30AP's, loading a bow could take 12AP and casting a spell can take 100AP. When the encounter starts, we mark AP 0 and roll for Orientation that gives the exact AP when each combatant can start their first actions. Then we just count the AP's and progress ahead. After each action the player states next action and resolves the AP required. The usual fight last 200-300AP's but may take as long as 1000AP. At certain points Fatigue is rolled. This makes our combats highly tactical and very, very detailed. Since one AP is 0.25 seconds, 40AP's equals to 10 seconds (old "round"). Melee Fumbles are converted in our game from Runequest 3rd edition and are deadly. Ambush (we have sort of Melee Ambush option also) is very deadly. The tactical nature of our combat makes my players very wary when in such situations. They know that any arrow or spell shot from the dark can be deadly. 3rd or 4th opponent gets a free strike and with some luck two 3rd level orcs can make any character to fall down (Bull Rush or Collision Charge) and that's always bad. Any moment someone can fumble and the whole dynamics of the situation changes.

Fatigue and Encumbrance is the real enemy of a characters. Fatigue increases in "levels" like Winded-Tired-Exhausted-Delirious-Catatonic. Each Fatigue Level adds Action Points to every action (making them slower), gives negative bonuses to skills (in percentages), may cause Stress, increases Fumble Range and accumulates as long-term Fatigue that requires good rest (an usual camp will not do). Fatigue and the general well-being is in great role while travelling. The players find it challenging to get anywhere in totally good condition. It is normal that after a long day of walking in wilderness at least half of characters carry some negative modifiers. If they fail to find a very good camp site these modifiers will not heal at night and they start to accumulate dangerously. The players really, really much appreciate Inns and their own homes. Now imagine some long dungeon crawl where good rest is almost always impossible...after a three-day crawl even an basic cave troll family (normally just an inconvenience) can be fatal.

Magic

Now that has cause me really trouble as a GM. High Level Rolemaster Characters have easily hundreds of spells and they offer solutions for almost every possible situation. Where to start... I've allowed a high number of spell points but I require really tight premisses to get them back. In long and tight scenarios it is usual that our spell casters are out of spell points, even when they start with 400 or something. Casting of higher level spells take a lot of time making most of the high-level spells obsolete in a fast moving situations. Keyed Spells (Spell User's Companion) and Spell Stores give tactical options for characters. Spell Mastery is widely used: Spell User's can modify any spell almost infinitely at the cost of high power point consumption, slower casting and higher risk of failure. Normally we never have a situation when the spell is cast "Automatically". Usually it's a skill check and with it comes the risk. And our Spell Failure Table is very long, and very much feared by the players. Resistance Rolls are different than in any RM version - we have several options and tactics that make it possible for low-level magic users to get their spells through and the low-level creatures to get cover from the spells. Even our 80 level sorcerer cannot be sure if her spell is going to go through against an prepared opponent. It's highly tactical.
Power Perception rules make it easy to detect any spell casting happening nearby. This makes the spell casting in certain areas a risk.
I've taken an strict approach to certain powerful spells like Invisibility or Mass-spells. For example, any sudden movement will cancel Invisibility as will such things like drinking and taking a leak. Mass-spells require marking every intended target making it very slow and so on...Fireball against the wall of opponents takes an full effect only on the first row, as the second and further on rows will be well covered by their comrades. Against Elemental Spells the skills like Adrenal Spell Avoidance (RM2 Arms Companion) or Spell Deflection (RM2 Arms Companion) enrage my bloodthirsty players more often than not. Counter magic is far more powerful in our campaign than anywhere in the RM rule books I've seen.

Scenarios

Most my scenarios require a lot of role-playing. They also always add to the main campaign somehow. We don't take sidesteps so the interest keeps up no matter what type of scenario we play. Regardless of high levels we can play any type of scenario. Last scenario was an conversion of Warhammer FRPG "The Edge of the Night" that took place in our world. The scenario is meant for very inexperienced characters by itself but in my conversion the main opponent was an just-awakened son of evil Chaos God trying to take hold of the city and reach for higher position in the great Empire in our campaign. He was at 120 level but all he and the characters was tied by the sensitive social situation so there was almost no dice-rolling at all except for certain Social Awareness or Perception rolls. I keep up the interest by letting the characters keep up their own "to-do lists". My characters know the exact situation they are in the campaign. They make their own decisions of how to proceed as the champions of their kingdom and the heroes of their religious cults. Usually I ask what you are going to resolve next and once they got the discussion done I build the scenario around their aim or complete my notes around the topic. Last such scenario was when the characters finally got impatient about the important book they found years ago (around 2010 I think in our time). None could read it since it was written by one of the first dwarven sages to ever exists in our world. The characters had done some measures (pacts etc) in the past and they knew there was one dwarf who could read it. Unfortunately that dwarf was imprisoned in evil stronghold, at mountain-top monastery. They got to know that this monastery was build around 1500 years ago and totally protected from intruders. Everyone who was not totally embraced the evil ways of that race was going to get caught the moment they crossed the monastery walls. Players made an deal with higher powers, got their hands on one-time ritual of Time Travelling and got their-selves on the time when the monastery was being build. They got on the site and were taken as slaves. Their toiled some weeks, survived the harsh treatment and finally got sealed inside the walls as an sacrifice. Then they fell in 1500 year sleep that was possible due some spell the witch prepared earlier. They woke up, broke out from the ancient wall to some old dusty storage, did some role-playing and subterfuge as newly-arrived novices and finally got away with the dwarf without ever triggering the alarm because they were in the inside when the enhancement was created! What's inside the book will shift our campaign to a next level. Again, only fight in this scenario was (if a couple of assassinations are taken off) when the novices were grinding against each other in Martial Art sessions. And there was one great moment when our Sorceress fell in love with one of the evil cultists (she) who also left the monastery in the frantic escape and allied with the characters. 

We do have also have fighting scenarios. We have War Law campaigns. We constantly play solo in email and Google Docs between the scenarios so we are prepared in table. The characters have full lives and roles in their kingdom. They have everyday lives and responsibilities they manage. We simulate together the kingdom in a detailed way (yearly budgets, farming etc). I write narratives around their off-line actions or of something that happens around them to show what was the result of their achievements. I try to make each scenario different. I have total of eight players so when it suits me, we almost always have the session. I require three players to attend at least, sometimes some situation requires an certain character to act so that may cause some calendar issues but generally I avoid such situations.

Thanks for your question, it was interesting to compile my thoughts on this. If interested, I can tell more from any topic you wish.

[Jenkyna]

I'll start from the challenges. I've had to adjust the challenge level progression so that the normal "Hard -10" and "Extremely Hard -35" are actually percentages. So the character with Fly-spell who tries to do Extremely Hard Maneuver using his Fly skill of +250 would face the challenge of -35% leaving +163 as his skill. Make that Sheer Folly -50 attempt and it would be +125 before roll. Absurd -75 would leave just a +63. This is not used if the skill is <100. The same goes for every disadvantage the character has. If he has for example -20 from some wound, it would be -20% to any Moving Maneuver BUT only the highest percentage counts as a percentage. So if you have multiple minuses only the highest would be percentage and others normal minuses.

At some point we were seriously tired of normal skill checks to be either extremely successful (any roll  except low open-ended would succeed) or total disaster (rolls 1-5 usually). There seemed to be no middle ground or normal failures ever unless something very strange was attempted. That was contrary to real life when we sometimes fail in routine skill checks but not fumble dangerously. So we invented "UM Failure". UM Failure is the failure range above the Fumble Range that increases when the difficulty of the maneuver increases. With Medium it's 6-10 and with Sheer Folly it's 6-40. Hitting that range with UM D100 means something unpredictable but not so dangerous happens and the total skill bonus suffers -D100% disadvantage AND the percentage from the difficulty rating. So the player rolls D100 and cuts that away from his total bonus, then applies the original roll. This makes the players really consider harder than Very Hard (UM Failure range 6-20) attempts. For example player with +300 total skill bonus tries Extremely Hard (-35%) task with UM Failure of 6-35. The player rolls 30, hitting the range. He then rolls 88, reducing the bonus to +36. Then the original Extremely Hard -35 is taken away, leaving just +1. Add the initial roll of 30 and you'll have +31, a Failure.

This explains how the skill challenges are still really challenging even with very high skills bonuses.

That's an interesting idea. "Hard" is relative, so what is "hard" for a 70th level character imposes a much bigger skill penalty than "hard" does for a 10th level character.

The current campaign I am working on, set in Shadow World, is intended for normal PCs starting at level 1 and topping out at 15 - 20. I have thought about making that campaign a part of a saga that has the players dealing with Ondoval and the theft of the Eye of Utha. That part would be played with characters who are very high level.

These are useful ideas for what I am thinking of doing.

[RandalThor]

Well, I don't know about your PCs, but here are two NPC examples of mine (of similar levels):

1) Semi-spellcaster, 11th: +210 OB, +100 BD (no shield), +192 DS, x2 PP multiplier, +3 spell adder. Some item examples:
   * main weapon: +30 OB. Any spell from Warrior’s Way" cast on it gets cast one round faster and is improved by one degree. It also increases its owner's intuition, allowing her to better thwart bluffing defenses such as the use of the feinting skill, the tumbling attack skill, a Displacement spell, etc.; her opponent's chances of success are lowered by 15%. In addition, if its owner injures any creature with it, she then may thrown it at aforementioned creature at a range expressed in kilometres rather than metres, with an additional bonus of +33 and range penalties expressed the same way in kilimetres,
   * add +20 OB, Haste 13 rounds a day, +3 to CCs 8 fights a day,
   * may cast spells from "Concussion's Ways" (level 11-20) as if her own.

2) Warrior class, 11th: +189 OB, +90 DB (+50 DB shield). Some item examples:
   * main weapon: +25 OB. It cancels 25% of DB invested to parry it and adds a vibration critical of the same level to all criticals inflicted. In addition, it adds two rounds of stun any time it hits and inflicts a critical, even if it results in no round of stun, and even against creatures normally immune to stun,
   * protects a AT12, encumbers as AT5, +20 DB. Inflicts a A electricity critical to any creature who injures its wearer (with or without a critical),
   * can catch all projectiles fired or weapons thrown at its owner, regardless of the number, speed, size, type, direction from which they were fired/thrown, as long as her owner is aware of possible attacks and has both hands free.

   Let's say the PCs are well-equiped enough to deal with the NPCs...

This is the RM I want to play. None of that, "we gotta keep the numbers low and PCs starved in order to motivate them" stuff. I can motivate my PC just fine without starvation, thank you. [Insert smiley emoji here.]

One thing that gets me about armor that protects at one AT but encumbers at a lower one is: What if that lower AT means you don't take any damage, while you do at the higher one? For example: there are magical armors that protect at AT20, but encumber as if they were AT1 (with all the corresponding 0s in MM penalties and such). Now, there are tons of results on the attack tables where AT1 takes no damage, but AT20 does. If I can move and stuff as if my armor was AT1, then shouldn't I take the better of the two? (I don't think encumbrance just means weight, so it isn't that it just weights less but still inhibits movement - that is all reflected by the different MM mods and stuff - it acts just like the lower AT armor.)

[Hurin]

One thing that gets me about armor that protects at one AT but encumbers at a lower one is: What if that lower AT means you don't take any damage, while you do at the higher one? For example: there are magical armors that protect at AT20, but encumber as if they were AT1 (with all the corresponding 0s in MM penalties and such). Now, there are tons of results on the attack tables where AT1 takes no damage, but AT20 does. If I can move and stuff as if my armor was AT1, then shouldn't I take the better of the two?

You should... But RM2 really handled AT 1 in a messed up way.

Happily, there is a solution: switch to RMu, which has solved this longstanding problem.

[Spectre771]

 For example: there are magical armors that protect at AT20, but encumber as if they were AT1 (with all the corresponding 0s in MM penalties and such). Now, there are tons of results on the attack tables where AT1 takes no damage, but AT20 does. If I can move and stuff as if my armor was AT1, then shouldn't I take the better of the two?

You're talking the protection offered by full plate vs. the protection offered by Light cloth, not the encumbrance of 75 pounds of armour vs. nothing at all.  Removing "magic" from the real world, carbon fiber protects pretty damned well and mylar/Kevlar protects against bullets, but encumber as AT 1 (ok, maybe AT2). 

In RM2 terminology,  carbon fiber protects as AT 20 but encumbers as AT1.  I would much rather be moving as AT1 but have the protection of carbon fiber.  By your argument, AT 1 is the best armour as it produces no damage because you have no penalties to moving around and attacks against AT 20 do some damage.

The damage AT20 takes is extremely low and without crits for a long range of attack results on any given attack table. It isn't until much much higher on the attack tables (Except MA Sweeps & Throws where it's the opposite results of AT1) that AT 20 receives a crit result and even then, it's minor.  AT 1 is harder to hit, yes, you're correct there, but when it does hit, the crits start at a much lower threshold and are far more severe.  I wouldn't want to wear AT20, and get crits on 25-30 OB attack results.  I'll take the attack result of 90 with 4 HP loss and no crit vs. 35HP and D-Crit. 

This is RM.  HP doesn't kill you.  Crits do!

Avoid the crits at all costs.

[jdale]

Like MA Sweeps, Grapple is also a reverse progression table -- crits start earlier for AT 20 than for AT 1. Ram/Butt/Bash, Ice Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and Shock Bolt too. I think if you are working within the pre-RMU tables, it would have been better to grant DB, hit reduction (e.g. half hits) and crit severity reduction rather than giving the protection of AT 20 with lower encumbrance.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

You should... But RM2 really handled AT 1 in a messed up way.

RM2 handles the armour penalties in a messed up way, as its logic is that, with heavier armours, you're hit at lower rolls because they impede your ability to dodge... except that it's already the case with the penalties lowering your DB!

Happily, there is a solution: switch to RMu, which has solved this longstanding problem.

One of the many features I expect from RMU.

Like MA Sweeps, Grapple is also a reverse progression table -- crits start earlier for AT 20 than for AT 1. Ram/Butt/Bash, Ice Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and Shock Bolt too. I think if you are working within the pre-RMU tables, it would have been better to grant DB, hit reduction (e.g. half hits) and crit severity reduction rather than giving the protection of AT 20 with lower encumbrance.

That is true, but armours with lower encumbrance are pretty "common" magic items, already present by scores in the C&T, so I give them quite easily to "powerful" NPCs. That, and because I just hate the armour penalty rules. :p

[Spectre771]

That is true, but armours with lower encumbrance are pretty "common" magic items, already present by scores in the C&T, so I give them quite easily to "powerful" NPCs. That, and because I just hate the armour penalty rules. :p

Absolutely.  The armour penalty rules seemed to double penalize the wearer.  The maximum penalty, and even the minimum penalty for untrained in Maneuver in Armour, can get pretty brutal.  Penalty using bows is yet another penalty.  Keeping in mind that the chance to be hit and get crits is already built into the weapon attack tables results.    We too have a lot of "lower to no encumbrance penalty" armour in our game.  Maybe 50% of new PCs start with low encumbrance magical armour to mitigate those harsh penalties.  A chance on the Special Items Background option is always worth a roll.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

The damage AT20 takes is extremely low and without crits for a long range of attack results on any given attack table. It isn't until much much higher on the attack tables (Except MA Sweeps & Throws where it's the opposite results of AT1) that AT 20 receives a crit result and even then, it's minor.  AT 1 is harder to hit, yes, you're correct there, but when it does hit, the crits start at a much lower threshold and are far more severe.  I wouldn't want to wear AT20, and get crits on 25-30 OB attack results.  I'll take the attack result of 90 with 4 HP loss and no crit vs. 35HP and D-Crit. 

Comparing AT20 to AT1 is very unfair. RM2 would have a HUGE problem if to wear the biggest armour were worse than wearing none at all.
A more accurate comparison would be, for instance, between AT13 and AT15, as both are armours of the same category. The DB penalty for AT13 is 5 whereas for AT15 it's 20. Let's consider the common weapon that is the broadsword. On its table, the first CC vs. AT13 is at 90, a 7AK; vs. AT15 is at 105, a 9AS. It seems better, doesn't it? Except if you do have a DB bonus of 20 or more, of course, since it becomes 15 when wearing an AT13 but 0 when wearing an AT15. So an attack roll needs to be 90 + 15 = 105 to inflict the first critical vs. an AT13 and... 105 + 0 = 105 vs. an AT15. Oh wait!
It gets worse on the high end: an attack roll of 150 becomes a 135 vs. an AT13, a 16DK, but a 150 vs. an AT15, a 15EK. Ouch.
And, of course, in AT15, you start to be hit earlier, with more damage. So, you're faster, with a better armour, yet you get more damage and more often?

This is RM.  HP doesn't kill you.  Crits do!

There are many spells and magical items that multiply HP damage, so it's not "too" hard to be at x3 or x5 (even taking into account that a x3 stacking with another x3 results in a x5 and not a x9...) At x5, being inflicted 15-20 HP damage every round is quite easy to achieve and kills pretty quickly...

[RandalThor]

You're talking the protection offered by full plate vs. the protection offered by Light cloth, not the encumbrance of 75 pounds of armour vs. nothing at all.  Removing "magic" from the real world, carbon fiber protects pretty damned well and mylar/Kevlar protects against bullets, but encumber as AT 1 (ok, maybe AT2).

OK, but I am talking about magic and not tech.

The damage AT20 takes is extremely low and without crits for a long range of attack results on any given attack table. It isn't until much much higher on the attack tables (Except MA Sweeps & Throws where it's the opposite results of AT1) that AT 20 receives a crit result and even then, it's minor.  AT 1 is harder to hit, yes, you're correct there, but when it does hit, the crits start at a much lower threshold and are far more severe.  I wouldn't want to wear AT20, and get crits on 25-30 OB attack results.  I'll take the attack result of 90 with 4 HP loss and no crit vs. 35HP and D-Crit. 

This is RM.  HP doesn't kill you.  Crits do!

Avoid the crits at all costs.

I know all this, but my question still stands because all of the various movement factors are baked into the combat tables, right? That is why on AT1 you take your first damage at a higher number than AT20, right? So, a MAGICAL armor that says it protects as AT20 but imposes encumbrance and maneuver penalties as AT1 should basically shift up* the AT20 results to where the first one is at the same number of the first hit/damage on the AT1 column. OK, that might be a bit powerful, but if you think about it that is basically what this would do: you are able to dance around as if wearing a t-shirt and loose fitting sweat pants, but when a weapon connects it is hitting hard armor.


* I actually just thought of this, but I think it is more accurate than just using the better of the two.

[RandalThor]

Comparing AT20 to AT1 is very unfair. RM2 would have a HUGE problem if to wear the biggest armour were worse than wearing none at all.
A more accurate comparison would be, for instance, between AT13 and AT15, as both are armours of the same category. The DB penalty for AT13 is 5 whereas for AT15 it's 20. Let's consider the common weapon that is the broadsword. On its table, the first CC vs. AT13 is at 90, a 7AK; vs. AT15 is at 105, a 9AS. It seems better, doesn't it? Except if you do have a DB bonus of 20 or more, of course, since it becomes 15 when wearing an AT13 but 0 when wearing an AT15. So an attack roll needs to be 90 + 15 = 105 to inflict the first critical vs. an AT13 and... 105 + 0 = 105 vs. an AT15. Oh wait!
It gets worse on the high end: an attack roll of 150 becomes a 135 vs. an AT13, a 16DK, but a 150 vs. an AT15, a 15EK. Ouch.
And, of course, in AT15, you start to be hit earlier, with more damage. So, you're faster, with a better armour, yet you get more damage and more often?

You know what? I think all of this is why I prefer the HARP method of combat: better armor just grants a bigger DB bonus, and if you want to reflect what we are talking about here, just grant that higher DB bonus and use the lower maneuver/movement penalty. So much easier and faster - and you can see a direct correlation to the way heavy armors protect better (plate armor grants a +60 DB, that could be the difference between a few Hits of damage - or none - and taking multiple Hits of damage, a stun, bleeding, and a negative modifier). Also, I don't believe that the maneuver penalties tied to armor affect DB, only skills.

[B Hanson]

Ra

Hi B Hanson,

I'm sorry I didn't notice your reply/request earlier than that.

Your question is a huge one and at the moment I don't know from where to begin.

We have of course written totally accurate and detailed Campaign Diaries but unfortunately those are in Finnish only. Reading those would have explained a lot.

First, we own every single RM book ever published (in paper versions) except 1st edition Boxed Set. We use some rules from every one so our system is quite an hybrid.

I'll start from the challenges. I've had to adjust the challenge level progression so that the normal "Hard -10" and "Extremely Hard -35" are actually percentages. So the character with Fly-spell who tries to do Extremely Hard Maneuver using his Fly skill of +250 would face the challenge of -35% leaving +163 as his skill. Make that Sheer Folly -50 attempt and it would be +125 before roll. Absurd -75 would leave just a +63. This is not used if the skill is <100. The same goes for every disadvantage the character has. If he has for example -20 from some wound, it would be -20% to any Moving Maneuver BUT only the highest percentage counts as a percentage. So if you have multiple minuses only the highest would be percentage and others normal minuses.

At some point we were seriously tired of normal skill checks to be either extremely successful (any roll  except low open-ended would succeed) or total disaster (rolls 1-5 usually). There seemed to be no middle ground or normal failures ever unless something very strange was attempted. That was contrary to real life when we sometimes fail in routine skill checks but not fumble dangerously. So we invented "UM Failure". UM Failure is the failure range above the Fumble Range that increases when the difficulty of the maneuver increases. With Medium it's 6-10 and with Sheer Folly it's 6-40. Hitting that range with UM D100 means something unpredictable but not so dangerous happens and the total skill bonus suffers -D100% disadvantage AND the percentage from the difficulty rating. So the player rolls D100 and cuts that away from his total bonus, then applies the original roll. This makes the players really consider harder than Very Hard (UM Failure range 6-20) attempts. For example player with +300 total skill bonus tries Extremely Hard (-35%) task with UM Failure of 6-35. The player rolls 30, hitting the range. He then rolls 88, reducing the bonus to +36. Then the original Extremely Hard -35 is taken away, leaving just +1. Add the initial roll of 30 and you'll have +31, a Failure.

This explains how the skill challenges are still really challenging even with very high skills bonuses.

I've not only taken away. I've added several additional Success Levels beyond an Absolute Success. There's Remarkable Success (231-350), Heroic Success (351-500) and Legendary Success (500+). If someone hits these epic levels they have far greater advantage in conflicts or otherwise.

Combat

In combat we have several options taken from a different Rolemaster generations. We have Combat Stances, Combat Styles and so on. We have two different ways to follow the combat actions: First is our own Action Point system that is highly modified version of RMC IV version. Every action imaginable in combat takes an certain amount of Action Points. An attack may take 30AP's, loading a bow could take 12AP and casting a spell can take 100AP. When the encounter starts, we mark AP 0 and roll for Orientation that gives the exact AP when each combatant can start their first actions. Then we just count the AP's and progress ahead. After each action the player states next action and resolves the AP required. The usual fight last 200-300AP's but may take as long as 1000AP. At certain points Fatigue is rolled. This makes our combats highly tactical and very, very detailed. Since one AP is 0.25 seconds, 40AP's equals to 10 seconds (old "round"). Melee Fumbles are converted in our game from Runequest 3rd edition and are deadly. Ambush (we have sort of Melee Ambush option also) is very deadly. The tactical nature of our combat makes my players very wary when in such situations. They know that any arrow or spell shot from the dark can be deadly. 3rd or 4th opponent gets a free strike and with some luck two 3rd level orcs can make any character to fall down (Bull Rush or Collision Charge) and that's always bad. Any moment someone can fumble and the whole dynamics of the situation changes.

Fatigue and Encumbrance is the real enemy of a characters. Fatigue increases in "levels" like Winded-Tired-Exhausted-Delirious-Catatonic. Each Fatigue Level adds Action Points to every action (making them slower), gives negative bonuses to skills (in percentages), may cause Stress, increases Fumble Range and accumulates as long-term Fatigue that requires good rest (an usual camp will not do). Fatigue and the general well-being is in great role while travelling. The players find it challenging to get anywhere in totally good condition. It is normal that after a long day of walking in wilderness at least half of characters carry some negative modifiers. If they fail to find a very good camp site these modifiers will not heal at night and they start to accumulate dangerously. The players really, really much appreciate Inns and their own homes. Now imagine some long dungeon crawl where good rest is almost always impossible...after a three-day crawl even an basic cave troll family (normally just an inconvenience) can be fatal.

Magic

Now that has cause me really trouble as a GM. High Level Rolemaster Characters have easily hundreds of spells and they offer solutions for almost every possible situation. Where to start... I've allowed a high number of spell points but I require really tight premisses to get them back. In long and tight scenarios it is usual that our spell casters are out of spell points, even when they start with 400 or something. Casting of higher level spells take a lot of time making most of the high-level spells obsolete in a fast moving situations. Keyed Spells (Spell User's Companion) and Spell Stores give tactical options for characters. Spell Mastery is widely used: Spell User's can modify any spell almost infinitely at the cost of high power point consumption, slower casting and higher risk of failure. Normally we never have a situation when the spell is cast "Automatically". Usually it's a skill check and with it comes the risk. And our Spell Failure Table is very long, and very much feared by the players. Resistance Rolls are different than in any RM version - we have several options and tactics that make it possible for low-level magic users to get their spells through and the low-level creatures to get cover from the spells. Even our 80 level sorcerer cannot be sure if her spell is going to go through against an prepared opponent. It's highly tactical.
Power Perception rules make it easy to detect any spell casting happening nearby. This makes the spell casting in certain areas a risk.
I've taken an strict approach to certain powerful spells like Invisibility or Mass-spells. For example, any sudden movement will cancel Invisibility as will such things like drinking and taking a leak. Mass-spells require marking every intended target making it very slow and so on...Fireball against the wall of opponents takes an full effect only on the first row, as the second and further on rows will be well covered by their comrades. Against Elemental Spells the skills like Adrenal Spell Avoidance (RM2 Arms Companion) or Spell Deflection (RM2 Arms Companion) enrage my bloodthirsty players more often than not. Counter magic is far more powerful in our campaign than anywhere in the RM rule books I've seen.

Scenarios

Most my scenarios require a lot of role-playing. They also always add to the main campaign somehow. We don't take sidesteps so the interest keeps up no matter what type of scenario we play. Regardless of high levels we can play any type of scenario. Last scenario was an conversion of Warhammer FRPG "The Edge of the Night" that took place in our world. The scenario is meant for very inexperienced characters by itself but in my conversion the main opponent was an just-awakened son of evil Chaos God trying to take hold of the city and reach for higher position in the great Empire in our campaign. He was at 120 level but all he and the characters was tied by the sensitive social situation so there was almost no dice-rolling at all except for certain Social Awareness or Perception rolls. I keep up the interest by letting the characters keep up their own "to-do lists". My characters know the exact situation they are in the campaign. They make their own decisions of how to proceed as the champions of their kingdom and the heroes of their religious cults. Usually I ask what you are going to resolve next and once they got the discussion done I build the scenario around their aim or complete my notes around the topic. Last such scenario was when the characters finally got impatient about the important book they found years ago (around 2010 I think in our time). None could read it since it was written by one of the first dwarven sages to ever exists in our world. The characters had done some measures (pacts etc) in the past and they knew there was one dwarf who could read it. Unfortunately that dwarf was imprisoned in evil stronghold, at mountain-top monastery. They got to know that this monastery was build around 1500 years ago and totally protected from intruders. Everyone who was not totally embraced the evil ways of that race was going to get caught the moment they crossed the monastery walls. Players made an deal with higher powers, got their hands on one-time ritual of Time Travelling and got their-selves on the time when the monastery was being build. They got on the site and were taken as slaves. Their toiled some weeks, survived the harsh treatment and finally got sealed inside the walls as an sacrifice. Then they fell in 1500 year sleep that was possible due some spell the witch prepared earlier. They woke up, broke out from the ancient wall to some old dusty storage, did some role-playing and subterfuge as newly-arrived novices and finally got away with the dwarf without ever triggering the alarm because they were in the inside when the enhancement was created! What's inside the book will shift our campaign to a next level. Again, only fight in this scenario was (if a couple of assassinations are taken off) when the novices were grinding against each other in Martial Art sessions. And there was one great moment when our Sorceress fell in love with one of the evil cultists (she) who also left the monastery in the frantic escape and allied with the characters. 

We do have also have fighting scenarios. We have War Law campaigns. We constantly play solo in email and Google Docs between the scenarios so we are prepared in table. The characters have full lives and roles in their kingdom. They have everyday lives and responsibilities they manage. We simulate together the kingdom in a detailed way (yearly budgets, farming etc). I write narratives around their off-line actions or of something that happens around them to show what was the result of their achievements. I try to make each scenario different. I have total of eight players so when it suits me, we almost always have the session. I require three players to attend at least, sometimes some situation requires an certain character to act so that may cause some calendar issues but generally I avoid such situations.

Thanks for your question, it was interesting to compile my thoughts on this. If interested, I can tell more from any topic you wish.

Ravenheart--thanks for the time and thought in your response! I have to review some of this but you bring up some interesting points. I'll be posting the remaining chapters of my high level adventure series and your feedback may require some re-think on my part!

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Also, I don't believe that the maneuver penalties tied to armor affect DB, only skills.

The manoeuvre penalty does not, the QUickness penalty OTOH... And I'm talking about it.

[RandalThor]

The manoeuvre penalty does not, the QUickness penalty OTOH... And I'm talking about it.

Ah yes, they are particularly steep. Maybe that is why I almost always tended to go with AT1 or 2, AT 9, or AT 13 20 for even fighter characters; the quickness penalties where just too high otherwise.

[Cory Magel]

17th level Rogue, had one +25 weapon at the highest. However a number of the items (ranging from +15 to +25) tended to have side properties such as secondary criticals for example, so I'd say that ups the power a little too.  I think my OB ranged from mid 120 to mid 150 range on my primary attacks.  DB was maybe mid 80's all included (magic items, etc) in medium armor type, although I'd developed a few closed spell lists which included Bladeturn/Deflections.

This is using RMSS.