Topic: How would you split the time it takes to attack with a bow?

[Bruce]

In the HARP rules it takes 3 rounds to load, aim, and fire a bow. If I were to separate the load time (includes pulling arrow from quiver) and the fire time (includes aiming and steadying) how would you suggest I do it?
I was thinking 2 rounds to load and 1 round to fire. But should it be exactly in half? Maybe someone thinks it should take longer to fire than to load, if you do please explain. The reason I am asking is what if someone decides to notch the arrow and wait? Then there is if they draw and hold it for a few seconds. I have used the same for crossbows but to me it takes less than a round to fire a crossbow that is already loaded and the other 4 or 5 rounds is spent loading it.

I have implemented stuff like this in my games with never a peep from my players so I figured I would check the boards for some other opinions.

Bruce

[dagorhir]

That all looks fine IMO

2 rounds to load a bow and 1 to fire makes sense, although that is very fast. 4 seconds to load (retrieving the arrow and notching it) is world record speeds. I average around 8 seconds with a longbow. But 2 seconds to shoot is fairly average.

Loading a crossbow is a 3 step process: 1- drawing the string to the nut; 2- retrieving the bold from the case; 3- placing the bold in the track.

Last two steps can take two seconds each, but the first step depends on the crossbow. A light crossbow can be done in 2 seconds, while a heavy crossbow can easily take upwards of 10 seconds.

Either case, they can be fire in 2 seconds.

Since Harp isn't suppose to be hyper realistic, 2 rounds loading & 1 round firing for bows is fine. I remember seeing some loading times in the books but I can't remember what they are exactly. My thought is still that those times worked fine.

[Zhaleskra]

Given that the Speed Loader talents lower the amount of time it takes to load a weapon, that could be one source. It may be the combat section where you got the loading times originally.

[dagorhir]

It's on page 91 of Harp fantasy:

Reload a sling or bow: 2 rounds
Reload a light crossbow: 5 rounds
Reload a heavy crossbow: 10 rounds

In all cases, a missile attack is 1 round (again found on pg 91). There is no specific for aiming a range weapon, must be included in the attack.

Given that the Speed Loader talents lower the amount of time it takes to load a weapon, that could be one source. It may be the combat section where you got the loading times originally.

As Zhaleskra mentions above, Speed loader talent reduces those times by half.

[markc]

dagorhir,
 Great advice and thanks for including the page numbers for easy reference.
MDC

[Bruce]

I know about speed loader, the ranger in my group has it per my suggestion. I also know about the HARP rules already with how long it takes to load bows/crossbows and then to fire them. I was mainly asking for opinions on the subject. It all makes sense especially the realistic loading times posted by dagorhir. Thanks everyone!

[Cory Magel]

For a bow or sling I'd say short load time and long shoot time.  For the crossbow I'd say long load time and short shoot time.

Personally I see a sling and bow as easy to load, but firing it as bringing the weapon up, readying it, tracking, and 'firing'.

For a 'speed loader' ability of some kind in regards to a sling or bow I'd just explain that as the shooting having become so good at loading that it is combined in with the 'readying and tracking' part of the firing phase.

[Charlie Four]

The way I'd do it is: 1st round reload, 2ndR can fire with a -20 both to attack and initiative, 3rd: fire normally. I think that was the way it was in RM, and it's not a bad rule.

If you want to "hold your fire", well. I'm thinking starting from round 3 onwards you can ready the bow. But I assume it has to be tensed, or else fire away with a -20 like it would be in round 2.

[Zhaleskra]

I think you'd also need something to represent losing the tension from keeping the bow drawn too long.

[Peter R]

That all looks fine IMO

2 rounds to load a bow and 1 to fire makes sense, although that is very fast. 4 seconds to load (retrieving the arrow and notching it) is world record speeds. I average around 8 seconds with a longbow. But 2 seconds to shoot is fairly average.

Loading a crossbow is a 3 step process: 1- drawing the string to the nut; 2- retrieving the bold from the case; 3- placing the bold in the track.

Last two steps can take two seconds each, but the first step depends on the crossbow. A light crossbow can be done in 2 seconds, while a heavy crossbow can easily take upwards of 10 seconds.

Either case, they can be fire in 2 seconds.

Since Harp isn't suppose to be hyper realistic, 2 rounds loading & 1 round firing for bows is fine. I remember seeing some loading times in the books but I can't remember what they are exactly. My thought is still that those times worked fine.

I think 2 rounds is pretty accurate. I do mounted archery and to retrieve an arrow, nock it and draw the bow takes me less than 5 seconds and I am a beginner and that is on a moving horse. Competitive archers are doing that in 3 seconds at a gallop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_J0iKkrwEE fast forward to about 3:19 and you can see it in action.

I use a traditional recurve bow made from wood and leather (34lb draw, 29" arrows) which is a lot smaller than a long bow but has an effective maximum range of 450'. I am normally shooting at targets 6" diameter 40'-60' away. You normally nock and draw and then hold waiting for the target to present itself before releasing.

I think you'd also need something to represent losing the tension from keeping the bow drawn too long.

Not sure this would be an issue in the HARP sort of combat timeframe. During training sessions we frequently draw and hold or maybe up to a minute while the coach is checking posture and position with no ill effects on the bow. We use thumb draw rather then three finger and holding the bow drawn is limited for how long you can bear the tension on your thumb rather than the effect on the bow..

[Bruce]

That all looks fine IMO

2 rounds to load a bow and 1 to fire makes sense, although that is very fast. 4 seconds to load (retrieving the arrow and notching it) is world record speeds. I average around 8 seconds with a longbow. But 2 seconds to shoot is fairly average.

Loading a crossbow is a 3 step process: 1- drawing the string to the nut; 2- retrieving the bold from the case; 3- placing the bold in the track.

Last two steps can take two seconds each, but the first step depends on the crossbow. A light crossbow can be done in 2 seconds, while a heavy crossbow can easily take upwards of 10 seconds.

Either case, they can be fire in 2 seconds.

Since Harp isn't suppose to be hyper realistic, 2 rounds loading & 1 round firing for bows is fine. I remember seeing some loading times in the books but I can't remember what they are exactly. My thought is still that those times worked fine.

I think 2 rounds is pretty accurate. I do mounted archery and to retrieve an arrow, nock it and draw the bow takes me less than 5 seconds and I am a beginner and that is on a moving horse. Competitive archers are doing that in 3 seconds at a gallop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_J0iKkrwEE fast forward to about 3:19 and you can see it in action.

I use a traditional recurve bow made from wood and leather (34lb draw, 29" arrows) which is a lot smaller than a long bow but has an effective maximum range of 450'. I am normally shooting at targets 6" diameter 40'-60' away. You normally nock and draw and then hold waiting for the target to present itself before releasing.

I think you'd also need something to represent losing the tension from keeping the bow drawn too long.

Not sure this would be an issue in the HARP sort of combat timeframe. During training sessions we frequently draw and hold or maybe up to a minute while the coach is checking posture and position with no ill effects on the bow. We use thumb draw rather then three finger and holding the bow drawn is limited for how long you can bear the tension on your thumb rather than the effect on the bow..

This is all good stuff. As it has been said before I have been working on an AP (Action  Point) system for HARP. If I ever get around to finishing the NDA would you all be interested in playtesting my AP system and giving feedback?

[Peter R]

If I have time I would love to.

I have plans to buy HARP SF in the next week or so, read it over the holidays and then try a PBP game mixing SF and Fantasy HARPs.

[Charlie Four]

That all looks fine IMO

2 rounds to load a bow and 1 to fire makes sense, although that is very fast. 4 seconds to load (retrieving the arrow and notching it) is world record speeds. I average around 8 seconds with a longbow. But 2 seconds to shoot is fairly average.

Loading a crossbow is a 3 step process: 1- drawing the string to the nut; 2- retrieving the bold from the case; 3- placing the bold in the track.

Last two steps can take two seconds each, but the first step depends on the crossbow. A light crossbow can be done in 2 seconds, while a heavy crossbow can easily take upwards of 10 seconds.

Either case, they can be fire in 2 seconds.

Since Harp isn't suppose to be hyper realistic, 2 rounds loading & 1 round firing for bows is fine. I remember seeing some loading times in the books but I can't remember what they are exactly. My thought is still that those times worked fine.

I think 2 rounds is pretty accurate. I do mounted archery and to retrieve an arrow, nock it and draw the bow takes me less than 5 seconds and I am a beginner and that is on a moving horse. Competitive archers are doing that in 3 seconds at a gallop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_J0iKkrwEE fast forward to about 3:19 and you can see it in action.

I use a traditional recurve bow made from wood and leather (34lb draw, 29" arrows) which is a lot smaller than a long bow but has an effective maximum range of 450'. I am normally shooting at targets 6" diameter 40'-60' away. You normally nock and draw and then hold waiting for the target to present itself before releasing.

I think you'd also need something to represent losing the tension from keeping the bow drawn too long.

Not sure this would be an issue in the HARP sort of combat timeframe. During training sessions we frequently draw and hold or maybe up to a minute while the coach is checking posture and position with no ill effects on the bow. We use thumb draw rather then three finger and holding the bow drawn is limited for how long you can bear the tension on your thumb rather than the effect on the bow..

Great stuff, the guy actually takes around 4 seconds to reload, so a character could fire at the very end of the second round. And a speed loader talent is supposed to be  extraordinary, so it makes sense.

[Davrem]

My players have avoided the use of missile weapons in HARP due to the extremely slow rate of fire (when compared to other systems).  To encourage Bow use, I told them that the speed loader talent will allow them to fire their bows every turn, like a melee class swinging a sword, or a caster using spells without needing to prepare. 

As for Crossbows, we all agreed that those are fire once and drop type of weapons...if you have them at all.

[Cory Magel]

We've always tweaked missile weapons to some degree.  While missile weapons have the advantage of range and also the benefit of being able to change targets on a whim the length of time they take to fine in some instances is just too long to be useful taking all the other various factors into account.

[Zhaleskra]

While I'm starting to disagree with a lot of HEMA practitioners with YouTube channels, I have to agree with the idea that a constant volley of arrows looks cool but would be utterly impractical. Don't even get me started on the friction burns Legolas's fingers would have from the movies.

[Peter R]

While I'm starting to disagree with a lot of HEMA practitioners with YouTube channels, I have to agree with the idea that a constant volley of arrows looks cool but would be utterly impractical. Don't even get me started on the friction burns Legolas's fingers would have from the movies.

Firing a bow with no protection on your fingers, or in my case thumb, hurts. I wrap my thumb in hockey tape to protect it.

A constant volley of arrows against lightly armoured foes was the whole reason for existance of the mounted archer. The light infantry type troops would never be able to catch up with the mounted archers nor could they out manouver them.

[jdale]

You do build up callouses over time... well, you do if you don't use protection. I use a glove.   Thumb rings are also a common solution for thumb-release style archery.

As for Legolas...  elves are pretty resistant to heat and cold I guess? But mostly he just had the advantage of being cinematic.

[Zhaleskra]

I think I prefer the idea that elves are robots. Perhaps Cylons?

[Peter R]

Was it in RuneQuest that elves were vegetables?