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Systems & Settings => HARP SF => Topic started by: pyrotech on January 26, 2017, 11:39:14 PM

Title: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: pyrotech on January 26, 2017, 11:39:14 PM
Hey all,

I recently had a player try to create a new genetic modification (he was looking to increase another character's tough hide and in the setting this genetic mod isn't available on a medical database).  The character is around 14th level and very good at medical theory - so this isn't that hard of check, but the second check into the research a 01, followed by a 96 on the crit fumble table - only there isn't a fumble table for medical or research skills.

So going by all the other fumbles - that line of research resets to 0% and something else unpleasant happens.  Now I can come up with all sorts of specific fumbles for this check, but what should the general guideline be for these kind of botches?  Has anyone made their own fumble results for these kind of skills?

Regards,
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 27, 2017, 02:30:47 AM
Uhm. Wow. Hehe! Depending on you and your group's stance on the "play to lose" idea, you could rule that the character has developed a completely different effect - find or make some other talent. So, instead increased DB, perhaps increased BMR, initiative, low-g adaptation, something "similar" enough, but with a completely different effect.

On the question of fumbles: I've noticed that the fumble table is more a starting point and frame of reference to turn fumbles into something narratively appropriate - with some exceptions, like weapon fumbles. I find the closest fumble-category, and try to extrapolate and infer from there. I base the choice of fumble-category on two things: skill and context.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on January 29, 2017, 01:08:53 PM
Or the desired effect but with adverse side-effects

Or simply adverse side-effects (such as the tough hide value being reduced or perpetual skin peeling/rashes or garish pigmentation issues or penalties to maneuvering because hide is now too stiff).

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 30, 2017, 06:40:44 AM
Worst case, the subject dies, but that is a little harsh, still the players have to be prepared for it. 

Alternatively, they become susceptible to a specific weapon type, No armour vs blasters, they have a field around their body that attracts bullets giving the enemy a +10 to hit when using slug throwing weapons.  Be creative.  But remember, this was a skill failure, so there should be absolutely zero benefit to the recipient. 
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 30, 2017, 07:05:16 AM
I disagree on the "zero benefit" statement above. It harkens back to old days of adversarial gaming, where the focus isn't really on having a fun time, but punishing players and outsmarting a sociopath-GM - great fun... :pirate: Although, I assume that's not what was intended with that statement. :)

Having played several games with more than one axis of skill resolution, a simple pass/fail system rarely does the action and character any justice, nor the game any favours. It's more interesting, exciting, gratifying and fun to provide something to the narrative, the game, the ongoings of plots and machinations, rather than just punish a player because of a bad roll. Don't get me wrong, a fumble is a fumble, but taking pleasure in thinking up the worst possible thing to happen ... takes a certain type of personality type. Usually a Fumble is also a failure - I guess it's automatically a failure - but you could rule that if the skill check would've been a success, if 01-05 wasn't fumble, then something cool could happen anyway. In addition to the fumble - if the context allows.

It's usually more fun that way, at least for the character in question - and less merciless laughter from fellow players gloating and having fun in your despair and lack of luck. :pirate:

That's me anyway.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 30, 2017, 07:41:45 AM
I disagree on the "zero benefit" statement above. It harkens back to old days of adversarial gaming, where the focus isn't really on having a fun time, but punishing players and outsmarting a sociopath-GM - great fun... :pirate: Although, I assume that's not what was intended with that statement. :)

Having played several games with more than one axis of skill resolution, a simple pass/fail system rarely does the action and character any justice, nor the game any favours. It's more interesting, exciting, gratifying and fun to provide something to the narrative, the game, the ongoings of plots and machinations, rather than just punish a player because of a bad roll. Don't get me wrong, a fumble is a fumble, but taking pleasure in thinking up the worst possible thing to happen ... takes a certain type of personality type. Usually a Fumble is also a failure - I guess it's automatically a failure - but you could rule that if the skill check would've been a success, if 01-05 wasn't fumble, then something cool could happen anyway. In addition to the fumble - if the context allows.

It's usually more fun that way, at least for the character in question - and less merciless laughter from fellow players gloating and having fun in your despair and lack of luck. :pirate:

That's me anyway.

  Sorry, I am not an adversarial GM, but if you are allowing a player to alter the genetic make-up of a player to enhance their skin, or make them super-telepaths, or whatever, there have to be reasons not to do so.  Giving them a benefit for failure merely encourages them to continue to take these steps.  Given the balance of the various races allowing this merely makes characters supermen, they are generally the top of their races, after all they are adventurers.  Why not just make everyone select their race as Transhuman X with genetically modified skin giving them a base AC equal to powered armour and a -50 DB?  If such a thing was an easy option with no negative effects would not the Alterant Replicant or Transhuman races already have done this?

  I have been a GM for Many Many years.  I encourage players to do whatever strikes their fancy, I have GM'd many differing systems, from D&D, Rolemaster, Spacemaster, to Paranoia.  Of course, if they fail in an attempt, they suffer the consequences.  Besides if they are really into roleplaying a few negative effects can make the character even more interesting.  Garlbox the Great fears nothing, well nothing except lead bullets, lead bullets make me break out in ugly red lumps, no, not hives, bullet holes.

  Any role below 5 should be considered a failure and be susceptible to a failure result.  In this case they rolled a -95, that is a spectacular failure and should gain another negative die roll because it is a 96+ roll.  The real potential roll is probably something in the neighbourhood of -125
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 30, 2017, 08:52:07 AM
Well, if the game is about super-telepaths, aliens and technology for genetic adaptation and changes is present, perhaps even widespread, then I see no reason to punish players unnecessarily for a failure, or fumble. Sure, there should be consequences, but consequences doesn't need to be solely bad: it-now-sucks-to-be-your-character-because-random-roll-botched-u-sukk... that quickly becomes adversarial in its most basic form, as any roll becomes a challenge between doing what you want, or suffer the GMs wrath for failure. I know some groups work that way, and some may even prefer it that way. To me that's board-gaming, roll-gaming, keeping it balanced for the sake of balance, realism for its own sake, rather than - what I believe - roleplaying games are about: role playing. Joint storytelling. A collaborative, social, narrative effort for mutual benefit and enjoyment. A collaborative story told in a shared imaginary space.  :flower:

Of course, as you point out, why won't everyone just go for the bestest, most powerfullest super-species-profession-combo ... but that's not what its about, in the same way as its not about punishing players for trying to do something. It's about playing a game, enjoying a game, and allowing for a plot and character driven narrative to flourish and be better because of all the players present. While shooting up monsters and evil NPCs as you go along.

Yeah, "play to lose" is an important skill for players to have, and GMs. Bad stuff happens to your character, no one is saying that it shouldn't - but as already stated, bad stuff doesn't have to be cruel punishment, or only bad and negative, why not a surprise-effect? Why not a positive twist? Sure your skin keeps being shed, but this actually accelerates healing ... so the tough hide gene mod failed, remove any DB from any such talents the character already possessed, but grant the player accelerated healing - or minor or major regen if you're a ridiculously nice GM. Additionally you could add a permanent penalty on influence skill checks - and bonuses for people making forensic and/or tracking checks "against" the player.  :hm:

Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Zhaleskra on January 30, 2017, 09:06:10 AM
I take exception to the idea of taking the consequences of a bad roll as "punishing a player". You want good with bad, I get that. There are systems that do that, and it's always more bad than good. For example, you lose an eye, but the scar it leaves gives you a roguish look that attracts some members of the gender you prefer.

As a GM I see my role as to provide hooks and challenges for my players. If they can't overcome a challenge, they deal with the consequences. While ultimately, I would like the players to reach my idea of an end goal, if the dice go against them I let them fall where they may. This is why I roll in the open, except for things that are always supposed to be secret. I do advise players to make use of their Fate Points.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 30, 2017, 09:40:45 AM
Well, if the game is about super-telepaths, aliens and technology for genetic adaptation and changes is present, perhaps even widespread, then I see no reason to punish players unnecessarily for a failure, or fumble. Sure, there should be consequences, but consequences doesn't need to be solely bad: it-now-sucks-to-be-your-character-because-random-roll-botched-u-sukk... that quickly becomes adversarial in its most basic form, as any roll becomes a challenge between doing what you want, or suffer the GMs wrath for failure. I know some groups work that way, and some may even prefer it that way. To me that's board-gaming, roll-gaming, keeping it balanced for the sake of balance, realism for its own sake, rather than - what I believe - roleplaying games are about: role playing. Joint storytelling. A collaborative, social, narrative effort for mutual benefit and enjoyment. A collaborative story told in a shared imaginary space.  :flower:

Of course, as you point out, why won't everyone just go for the bestest, most powerfullest super-species-profession-combo ... but that's not what its about, in the same way as its not about punishing players for trying to do something. It's about playing a game, enjoying a game, and allowing for a plot and character driven narrative to flourish and be better because of all the players present. While shooting up monsters and evil NPCs as you go along.

Yeah, "play to lose" is an important skill for players to have, and GMs. Bad stuff happens to your character, no one is saying that it shouldn't - but as already stated, bad stuff doesn't have to be cruel punishment, or only bad and negative, why not a surprise-effect? Why not a positive twist? Sure your skin keeps being shed, but this actually accelerates healing ... so the tough hide gene mod failed, remove any DB from any such talents the character already possessed, but grant the player accelerated healing - or minor or major regen if you're a ridiculously nice GM. Additionally you could add a permanent penalty on influence skill checks - and bonuses for people making forensic and/or tracking checks "against" the player.  :hm:

Wow, I love the whole I am an adversarial GM thought that comes with my saying "Play the dice as they lie, but do not give a bonus for failure".  "Why not a Positive Twist?" simple, it is not a positive result, it is a failure, suffer the consequences.  I did not force you to play with your genes, I did not say try this or die, you chose to do it, you reap the rewards or suffer the result of the failure.  I do not punish anyone, and if the players feel railroaded they will stop playing, I will not be the GM.  NEVER make it punishment, in fact be sure to make players aware there may be consequences BEFORE they roll or decide to take the chance.  If I were the GM you seem to feel I am, or hint I am I would not have been the main GM for this unruly crowd for the last 30 years.

  The players must foremost understand it is not Me vs Them, it is Them vs the World, and life is not all rainbows and bubblegum, there are possibly catastrophic results to their actions.  You want to unleash that kettle of magically enhanced plague bearing rats on the town?  OK, you do understand that your town is only a days ride away and those fleeing the plague may come to your town?  OK, done. Oh you want to drop that anti-matter bomb on the starport?  OK, you understand that the orbital station will make note of your registration number and report you to the galactic authorities?  OK, done.  Oh, you want to delve into the genes of that player and manipulate their genes creating a potential superman?  Oh you understand that if you fail they may develop an unstable mutation that may result in you needing to supply them with a regular dose of Regenex III each day or their skill will slough off?  Perhaps they instead will get a roll on the Allergy Table?  Or perhaps they get a roll on the Genetic Disease Table?  Maybe the Mental Addiction Table?  The Mental Problem Table?  You get the idea.  Cause and Effect, for each action there is a potential reaction.  There is no free ride, everybody pays, gas, grass or A**.

  As a GM do not be vindictive, also do not be their best pal ever.  Yes it is a game, and yes it has to be fun, but there are consequences occasionally.  In one game I had Tourettes inflicted on a character that I had cultivated as the penultimate diplomat.  I could have thrown my hands in the air and cursed everyone and the game for this, instead I adopted it into his style.  Sure there were situations where this cost me, but there were others where this helped me.  I took a chance, accepted the consequences and played on having a great time with the added roleplay level.  Nobody is the perfect superman, not even Superman.  Take the defect and run with it, Embrace it into the character and roleplay that.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 30, 2017, 12:15:53 PM
I take exception to the idea of taking the consequences of a bad roll as "punishing a player". You want good with bad, I get that. There are systems that do that, and it's always more bad than good. For example, you lose an eye, but the scar it leaves gives you a roguish look that attracts some members of the gender you prefer.

As a GM I see my role as to provide hooks and challenges for my players. If they can't overcome a challenge, they deal with the consequences. While ultimately, I would like the players to reach my idea of an end goal, if the dice go against them I let them fall where they may. This is why I roll in the open, except for things that are always supposed to be secret. I do advise players to make use of their Fate Points.
The idea is not that a bad roll is punishing the player, the idea is that you can be creative and generative in failure that also leads to cool stuff - I guess I'm borrowing this idea of failure with advantages or triumph from FFGs Star Wars RPG. Not saying it should be like that all the time. I simply disagree with failure = zero good stuff.

As for your second paragraph, yeah, generally I agree. I used to GM more like that, but have ended up changing it a bit. Not much, but a tad bit. I also my role as the GM as a facilitator of fun and enjoyment, that is to allow my players to follow their own path, to have agency both in plot, narrative, as well as in rolling and roleplaying. Which isn't that much different I guess.

Wow, I love the whole I am an adversarial GM thought that comes with my saying "Play the dice as they lie, but do not give a bonus for failure".  "Why not a Positive Twist?" simple, it is not a positive result, it is a failure, suffer the consequences.  I did not force you to play with your genes, I did not say try this or die, you chose to do it, you reap the rewards or suffer the result of the failure.  I do not punish anyone, and if the players feel railroaded they will stop playing, I will not be the GM.  NEVER make it punishment, in fact be sure to make players aware there may be consequences BEFORE they roll or decide to take the chance.  If I were the GM you seem to feel I am, or hint I am I would not have been the main GM for this unruly crowd for the last 30 years.

  The players must foremost understand it is not Me vs Them, it is Them vs the World, and life is not all rainbows and bubblegum, there are possibly catastrophic results to their actions.  You want to unleash that kettle of magically enhanced plague bearing rats on the town?  OK, you do understand that your town is only a days ride away and those fleeing the plague may come to your town?  OK, done. Oh you want to drop that anti-matter bomb on the starport?  OK, you understand that the orbital station will make note of your registration number and report you to the galactic authorities?  OK, done.  Oh, you want to delve into the genes of that player and manipulate their genes creating a potential superman?  Oh you understand that if you fail they may develop an unstable mutation that may result in you needing to supply them with a regular dose of Regenex III each day or their skill will slough off?  Perhaps they instead will get a roll on the Allergy Table?  Or perhaps they get a roll on the Genetic Disease Table?  Maybe the Mental Addiction Table?  The Mental Problem Table?  You get the idea.  Cause and Effect, for each action there is a potential reaction.  There is no free ride, everybody pays, gas, grass or A**.

  As a GM do not be vindictive, also do not be their best pal ever.  Yes it is a game, and yes it has to be fun, but there are consequences occasionally.  In one game I had Tourettes inflicted on a character that I had cultivated as the penultimate diplomat.  I could have thrown my hands in the air and cursed everyone and the game for this, instead I adopted it into his style.  Sure there were situations where this cost me, but there were others where this helped me.  I took a chance, accepted the consequences and played on having a great time with the added roleplay level.  Nobody is the perfect superman, not even Superman.  Take the defect and run with it, Embrace it into the character and roleplay that.
I haven't accused you of that now have I? I'm sorry you've felt the need to interpret it that way. I guess I can understand that it could seen as an implication of my statement, but that was not my intention. I'm sorry about that.

As for Me v Them or Them v World ... aren't we as GMs the World? We represent and act out the world around them, all the NPCs, the weather, the light, the dark, the slippery floor ... Again, I feel I must be very explicit here, I'm not saying its the same nor that you are an adversarial GM.

Also, consequences of intended, and potentially dumb actions (like releasing magically enhanced plague bearing rats on a town) is different to a random number on a set of dice. At least that seems obvious to me. This, and most of your examples, is different from a setting where gene therapies and gene modification may (or may not - I'm not sure of the OPs setting) is prevalent, perhaps even normal. The technology and techniques may be highly developed and rather safe - which arguably isn't the case in his player's fumble as it was created by the player, but the technology and science allows for it, is present and is something that isn't, I would think, comparable to antimatter bombs or magical plague-rats. In the OPs example ... you're right though, in some games those are equivalents, but it doesn't seem to me like the OPs setting is like that, nor exactly as I see it. His setting seems to be in between.

My argument is that there's a difference between intended dumb actions wherein the dice have no or little say for the consequences, i.e. antimatter bomb and plague-rats, the consequences are crap and bad regardless. In some cases, like a late-modern setting, you could say the same about trying to create a mutant x-men with steel skin. In a scifi setting, where gene modification is prevalent and perhaps even considered quite normal, I wouldn't say its the same. In those two different settings I would rule it differently, because the game, the setting and the expectations are different. Sure you take defects and drawbacks in stride and include it in the character, but the severity of those defects and drawbacks would differ vastly from a late-modern setting wherein the risks are extreme, compared to a scifi setting wherein the risks are most likely known and can be handled (perhaps already is.)

The positions we inhabit are not vastly different, from my perspective. There just seems to be some nuances I have issues getting across.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 30, 2017, 01:07:43 PM
Again, this is the fundamental issue, the roll was a FAILURE, in fact it was a Catastrophic FAILURE, they not only rolled a 1, they followed that up with an OPEN Ended Roll, thus it should be rerolled and that amount also subtracted from the initial roll.  Those are the system rules.  How can such a failure result in anything positive.  Sure as GM you may not want to kill the character, but a failure is not a good result, there is no benefit to be gained from failure other than an opportunity for roleplay.  "Dammit that is not what I wanted, now what am I going to do?"  Roleplay it out.

As a GM ALWAYS be neutral, never pick your world over the players desires.  In fact often I select the Players wills over the world for the sake of fun.  Still, when you fail, you fail.  The rats were to be released by an evil character, so please not dumb, intentionally evil.  Now, how about we discuss something that has been in use for years now.  As an example, first aid, we know how it works, there are books for people at home to use.  I have taken Emergency First Aid, plus several other First Aid Courses, then I go to medical school and become a GP.  Tomorrow I see someone at the office who has been hurt, they are very badly cut.  I administer "First Aid" I totally blow my roll, They get sick, probably an infection, maybe even gangrene.  Why does this happen?  Because as a Doctor I FAILED.  They do not gain the ability to self-heal minor cuts, they get sick because of my failure.  That is how it works.  Sure it is not fun for the guy who gets the gangrene, but that is the chance they take.  Perhaps as GM you want to give them a chance to make this a success.  Give them a quest or mission to find a solution to the problem they created.  If they succeed then perhaps you can give them a benefit or success for the failure.  They find a rare element that they missed in the formula so the gene alteration worked.  Don't make failure a success.



Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 30, 2017, 04:03:40 PM
Fumbles are not open-ended in HARP SF good sir. Page 129, right hand column, second paragraph under Fumbles. Read it again.

So while I understand your logic it is not RAW, nor do I agree with your adamant on failure being something bad and only bad. This may be because I've played games with more than a simplistic pass/fail resolution method like this game uses (it has more than all-or-nothing sure, I know), so I'm bringing that, arguably more complex and interesting idea, with me into this system. Which means I rarely use the all-or-nothing malarkey. I still use it, but I use the Percentage and RR columns a lot more than the all-or-nothing resolution. This can require a lot of hand-wavium and GM fiat, which a lot of players (and other GMs) are no fan of, but so far so good with my group. It keeps it interesting, for us.

So it is based on that my suggestion of something more interesting and fun, in my opinion, than a heinous mutating fumble.

I get where you're coming from, I understand you completely, but I disagree in the case of this discussion. It's more complex. I'm not sure you understand me however.  :(
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 30, 2017, 04:25:08 PM
First, HARP, right.  My bad.

Second, I understand, I disagree, but I understand, it is a failure.  Do you agree that a failed skill check is a failure?   I get you saying you wanted x but got y.  That is a partial success, not a failure.  That is the fundamental issue here.  I myself have another stat for players, it is called luck.  You screw the pooch on a roll?  Burn some luck baby and try to get a partial success, but there are no gifts.

It was not a partial success, it was not a close failure, it was a horribly terribly wrong failure.  A 1 is never a oooo close but not quite, sorry try again. 

I get not ruining the character a player has worked on for potentially years.  So, make it a failure that they need to fix.  Allow them to fix it, but do not reward what is clearly a failure.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 31, 2017, 02:03:17 AM
I agree that a failed skill check is a failure, but can you agree that failure has more than one dimension? It's more than one simple value on a variable? Can you agree that failure can lead to something better? A very fact of life...

You understand a simplified version of what I'm saying, but the understanding is adhering strictly to the simplistic uncreative action resolution mechanic of this game (and games like this, like D&D, Pathfinder, and other simple one-axis pass/fail systems.) Down to the terminology. I'm not talking about a "partial success" - that notion is also a simplistic suggestion to a much more interesting complex of possibilities this system in its core mechanic struggles (and fails) to emulate. That is the failure that turns into something positive, something else sure, but also unexpectedly positive. For instance, I missed my called shot or my aimed burst at the enemy soldier, but due to that my bullets hit the pipes in the background covering the entire area in thick fog. Failure, but something positive (limited sight, penalties on attacks) - not great bonuses (unless you have fog-vision), but penalties all around. Or you hit the fuse box and all the power goes, no light. Good thing you have nigh-vision goggles... an opportunity to get away, or show off your blind-fighting skill. Unintended changing of the battle ground through failure.

So, what I'm not saying is I want X, but got Y ... If sticking to such simplistic terminology, what I'm talking about is closer to: I want X, I produced Y, so I get Z. Where Z can be anything from a normal simplistic uncreative failure, mild to severe fumble (the Y in your post,) and more interesting results that is not tied to a simplistic uncreative binary understanding of action resolution, not covered by your one-dimensional version of the idea of "failure" of an action. I guess you Luck stat is a somewhat limited approximation of what I'm talking about.

So, in sum: I'm not talking about "partial success" - although I try to make use of that when necessary. I'm not talking about "oooo close but not quite." I'm not talking about one-dimensional understanding of failure. Arguably I'm talking about something more realistic, the fact that the failure of a task is rarely only down to the skills of the individual, but also a multitude of other internal and external factors over which the individual has no control, and perhaps no knowledge or awareness. Something FFGs Star Wars RPG system emulates in an elegant, if at times annoying, manner.

This has lead me to improvise cascading results (CRR) for a lot of actions and skill checks, which is another approximation this system offers to cover encounters that are not simply pass/fail - or where such resolution is boring, uncreative, and not so constructive for the game, plot or ongoing narrative - that's not to say simple pass/fail can't be useful and constructive, it sometimes is very useful and constructive. Generally though CRRs are better, the scanner and sensor table in HARP SF also offers some options on target numbers to provide a graded or incremental result based on the level of success. In some stuff I'm currently working on I'm introducing a combination, that is target numbers with results under 101 on normal all-or-nothing checks, but where this results in penalties on follow-up skill checks. So, CSR? Cascading Skill Resolution ? :pirate:
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 31, 2017, 06:17:33 AM
We simply can't agree, you want a failure to be a positive effect, in life a failure is a failure.  Yes, this is a game, but if there are no consequences, if there is no down side to your action you may as well be Monty Hall.

I refuse to reward failure, you feel the need to never portray failure.  Different style, different thought process.

Also your simplistic thoughts on failure are incorrect, but again, you and I will never agree.  Failure can be very creative, as I have tried to show, but again, you do not believe in failure.  By-The-Way, you failed your persuade roll.  :-)
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 31, 2017, 06:58:38 AM
You misunderstand, or you don't want to understand. Fair enough. :)

Yeah, we won't agree. Not when you put words and meaning not present in my writing into what you wrongly believe is what I want, or do. Of course I portray failure, but I'm not dogmatic and simple about it, I'm creative about it. What you've shown are gaming 101 examples, not incorrect, but simplistic, boring and normal. I'm arguing to move beyond the narrow-minded binary pass/fail philosophy that you seem incapable of shedding, that you're dogmatically stuck in.

My thoughts on failure are not simplistic, nor incorrect, they're just fairly average, you just don't to grasp them. Which is fine. Try some games with a different philosophy on action resolution than games like this and the ones you mentioned above - all more or less identical games, with simple resolution methods. Challenge yourself and your ideas of success and failure - look away now, this may blow you mind: success is not always a one-sided positive affair?!?!?!?!!? WTF? dafuq? How can I say that? Must be something crazy? Drugs in my coffee?!

I cannot succeed on my persuasion when the listener doesn't comprehend. ;) :pirate:
Edit: Which is ultimately my responsibility, as long as we communicate using the same language. So, the failure is double mine. The positive side of this failure? I've learned more about how to not explain and describe what I think. Next time I meet someone who finds this idea alien and confusing, I will use different words and examples. If there is a next time. I've never had to discuss this before, most people understand straight away, despite my lousy explanation and descriptions. ;) So, there is a positive side-effect of this failed persuasion check - it's more like public speaking though, I'm not trying to convince you, but create understanding. Which I failed at. So, I learn from this. I've hopefully made a new sparring-partner that won't hate me, succeeded in not creating an online enemy. Lots of failure with advantages here. It seems like. :)
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 31, 2017, 07:06:18 AM
You are beginning to offend me, if I disagree I am incapable of understanding.  If I don't agree I am simplistic. 

I disagree, I do not feel failure is a success in any way.  End of Discussion.

I have played more RPG's and systems than the years you have been alive.  If I disagree it is because I disagree.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 31, 2017, 07:07:58 AM
I've never written that failure is success in any way.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 31, 2017, 07:10:53 AM
1) You are beginning to offend me, if I disagree I am incapable of understanding.  If I don't agree I am simplistic. 

2) I have played more RPG's and systems than the years you have been alive.
1)  I'm sorry, but you put words and meaning into what I write that isn't present, quite offensive in itself. I only reply in kind.

2) And this relevant in what way?
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 31, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
Try some games with a different philosophy on action resolution than games like this and the ones you mentioned above - all more or less identical games, with simple resolution methods. 

I was not going to respond, this is going nowhere, you do not accept my stand, and constantly repeat that I am simple, that my methods are simple.  You have no idea what I do, or how I GM, but you must regard me as simple.  Fine, Done with this, it is wasting time.  Yet see above for point 2.  again "Try some games with a different philosophy on action resolution than games like this and the ones you mentioned above" Name a few, I will bet you I have played most of them.  I have tried more than 70 RPG's in my 37 years as a GM and as a player.  I have GM'd most of those years.  I have read rule systems that I have no intention of ever playing just to poach some rule ideas and points.  I am far from NARROW-MINDED, a term you use often. 

You state that I do not understand that failure is more than a simple pass fail, I offered some options that I felt were very reasonable.  These were ignored.  You state "I Do not grasp your ideas"  No I DISAGREE with your ideas, not fail to grasp.  YOU Keep referring to your ideas not being simplistic, I never said they were.  Again, I say I DISAGREE, You want failure to have a reward, Why?  THAT is the question, why reward failure?  You say "Challenge yourself and your ideas of success and failure - look away now, this may blow you mind: success is not always a one-sided positive affair?!?!?!?!!? WTF? dafuq? How can I say that? Must be something crazy? Drugs in my coffee?!"  How offensive is that?  Seriously.  Who said success or failure are one sided?  Oh that is right, YOU did.  Again, why do you insist I am punishing the players? I am not rewarding them.  Wait, I know you didn't say that, but you did. 

"Well, if the game is about super-telepaths, aliens and technology for genetic adaptation and changes is present, perhaps even widespread, then I see no reason to punish players unnecessarily for a failure, or fumble. Sure, there should be consequences, but consequences doesn't need to be solely bad: it-now-sucks-to-be-your-character-because-random-roll-botched-u-sukk... that quickly becomes adversarial in its most basic form, as any roll becomes a challenge between doing what you want, or suffer the GMs wrath for failure. I know some groups work that way, and some may even prefer it that way. To me that's board-gaming, roll-gaming, keeping it balanced for the sake of balance, realism for its own sake, rather than - what I believe - roleplaying games are about: role playing. Joint storytelling. A collaborative, social, narrative effort for mutual benefit and enjoyment. A collaborative story told in a shared imaginary space. "

  I have stated repeatedly, do not be a GM that is GM vs Players, that is dumb, I have played as a player with some of those, guess what, they are no longer the GM.    Now, Consequences - a result or effect of an action or condition. e.g. The accident was the consequence of reckless driving.  This was not my definition, nor my example.  Doesn't sound like consequences equals reward.  Reward - a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement. e.g. "the engineer who supervised the work was rewarded with a bonus".  Again not me, maybe this will work.  Achievement - something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed.  Hmmmm, I know - Failure - lack of success. Wait - Success - the accomplishment of an aim or purpose.

  Well... There is something to think about, Failure is lack of achieving or accomplishing an aim or purpose.  So maybe my earlier suggestions that were ignored would be an idea.

"Give them a quest or mission to find a solution to the problem they created.  If they succeed then perhaps you can give them a benefit or success for the failure.  They find a rare element that they missed in the formula so the gene alteration worked."  Use the FAILURE as a tool for more adventures, maybe even something you or the players never thought of.

Now, I think this has been flogged quite a bit, and I am sure I stepped over a line here and may have offended you with my simplistic thoughts, I am not trying to offend.  Just be clear.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 31, 2017, 09:14:13 AM
Generally I don't get offended, just very engaged (enthusiastic) and irritable. So, I'm not offended by what you write. :pirate: ;)

1) Again with the experience and age - as if its relevant or matter. But fine, I am mightily impressed by your experience and I bow down to your superiority. Now, that that has been established can be move on? If only you'd stay on topic and not come with arguments based on an appeal to authority due to having played games for x numbers of years, and read what I write and not read into it that which isn't there. Then this could lead somewhere.

2) I'm not insisting you're punishing your players - if you read my posts you shouldn't interpret it like that, especially if you read my post with bold writing a bit further up. So stop accusing me of that and start to read what I write instead of what you feel and think I write. As you said I don't know you or anything about you (except that you play RPGs and post on these forums.) So why do you take everything I say as an insult? I'm not directing it at you as insults. You're not simplistic - but some of your points and arguments are, in my opinion, but there's a difference between you and your arguments. At least to me. I see your arguments and their content, I don't see you. I can judge what you write, not you. That's a premise for online discussion.

3) I have not ignored you suggestions, I've pointed out that those are basic and obvious. And that they are already included in my perspective - I could've been a lot clearer about that, and I apologise for that. In other words, coming up with those examples has brought nothing to the conversation that was not already implied and part of it - from my point of view. Reasonable they were, I'm not disputing that, but unnecessary from my point of view.

4) Failures can have rewards, most failure do, so to speak. At least in the real world. It's called learning. In games, I also want the possibility of an unintended and surprising boon or interesting effect that, so far, has not been covered by your musings on how to incorporate failure into roleplaying. The games, my games at least, are about (wannabe) heroes, future heroes, people who somehow are at the centre of events in an unfolding story of our collective creation. That makes them special. My idea of rewards in failure, or reward is a misleading term. I don't want rewards, but I want effects, positive as well as negative, neutral, surprising, and unexpected effects. That may or may not be positive, depending on creativity of the player, the GM and the situation. This is not a novel or new or crazy idea (you need look no further than WHFRP and SWRPG from FFG for some recent examples.) This idea has been around as long as there's been roleplaying games. The problem of binary pass/fail systems is obvious and apparent. It can be seen as a feature or as a bug - I see it merely as something to overcome through creativity and collaboration with my players. It has its strength, but also its weaknesses.

5) I'm sorry you feel offended by being challenged. ;) I'm only joking! Seriously! We're talking past one another. That much seems obvious. I'm not so much disagreeing with your examples and suggestions, as I disagree with your (seeming) absolutism on failure v success and what they should and must mean and cannot and don't mean. And of course I disagree with your misreading of what I write. As you disagree with my misreading of what you write.

6) No, consequences doesn't necessarily equate reward, but it doesn't exclude it either. It can be both. Failure in itself can be a reward - for as you write: future missions, stuff to fix, stuff to create, and so on.

Failure is lack of achieving or accomplishing an aim or purpose.  So maybe my earlier suggestions that were ignored would be an idea.
Lack of achieving aim or purpose doesn't exclude other positive consequences, if narratively fitting and desired.

I'm not saying every failure needs this or should have positive consequences, most are simply failures. But taking inspiration from the cascading resistance roll tables and the scanner/sensor tables in HARP SF makes for a lot more fun and interesting games - in my opinion.

There's a disagreement of terms here, I think, more than a disagreement in principle, but I may be too positive  8)
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Zhaleskra on January 31, 2017, 09:17:23 AM
I'm the kind of player who gets offended when the GM does something to keep my character alive to protect "the story". This astounded one GM as I didn't tell him how my character was doing in a combat until that character was unconscious from hit point loss. I did give some wiggle room in a different game, where another player's character and mine were in a certain death situation: the remaining characters had a time limit to save us, otherwise those characters were dead. When I see topics like these, I wonder "why do you roll the dice at all if you're always going to fudge it?"

I play RPGs for different reasons than I watch a movie: I don't like plot armor when I'm playing a game.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on January 31, 2017, 10:53:41 AM
Fair enough. Different groups and GMs will differ. Nothing wrong with that.

I prefer not to have plot-armour too, when I'm a player. I know that this goes for my players too, but we talk about this during session 0 - how vicious and merciless do they want the game to be, and how vicious and merciless do I as the GM want to be. Then we compromise. As a group. When GMing HARP Fantasy or HARP SF I tend to be more vicious and merciless than when I GM Star Wars FFG edition or 7th Sea. When I GMd d20 Star Wars back in the day I was more merciless than when I now GM FFG Star Wars, but also I was less merciless and vicious as a GM when I GMd d6 Star Wars.

When I GMd RMSS I was certifiably dangerous, but it was a group agreement, it was expected. There is no plot armour, but there is timing in addition to randomness. Some games have the plot armour built in - like FFGs Star Wars RPG, dying in that game is quite difficult at early stages - others don't.

It depends on the game and the genre of the game and storyverse to be explored.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Zhaleskra on January 31, 2017, 12:07:35 PM
I was part of a college role-playing group for several years. Having not experienced other play expectations, I thought everyone would assume their character was always at risk. Apparently there was some unwritten rule about warning players their characters were at risk. After the second in a trilogy of adventures, a misunderstanding of what was happening associated with that rule caused me to lose that entire group.

I'm sticking with Mordrig on this though.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on January 31, 2017, 12:37:16 PM
I believe GMLovlie is in a group that is very invested in their characters and something like a catastrophic failure would cause undue stress.

Personally, my group, and myself in particular are perfectly willing to have our characters die, and / or suffer great misfortune.  Currently my Nightblade, a character that I have been running for close to 25 years, is at great risk to die from his actions.  I could have saved him I am sure, but chose to perform certain actions that will bring a very likely chance of his death.  I even went so far as to tell the GM "if he dies, oh well.  You pay's your money and you takes your chances."  Failure in this case means a great chance at death, or at least a debilitating injury that may cripple him or greatly reduce his abilities.  Another option for the GM is to have him captured, which is yet another scenario for me, I will be forced to escape where I will be held and travel back to where I currently am.  I know this is not a skill failure as the rest of the talk has been.  Just a note that some, many in my experience, groups are more willing to have PC's fail and fail spectacularly than others.  neither is right, it is what is right for your group.

As a GM I run worlds where you are always at risk of death or lasting injury.  If you want to do something that increases that risk, or something that might open you up to a horrible disfigurement if you fail, so be it.  I do not fudge rolls, if it is a roll that must succeed, why is it a roll?  It simply happens.  If it is your choice or action and doesn't truly affect the storey, no matter how strange or spectacular it may be, roll them bones.  As I said, I might give advice as to the risk, but I will let you do it.

Viscous as a GM means tougher monsters, not sticking to the results rolled, that is why there are random tables and events.  If you want to avoid random results play FATE or Theatrix.  I am not disparaging any GM styles, nor other systems.  Play as you and your group want.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on February 01, 2017, 02:09:20 AM
I was part of a college role-playing group for several years. Having not experienced other play expectations, I thought everyone would assume their character was always at risk. Apparently there was some unwritten rule about warning players their characters were at risk. After the second in a trilogy of adventures, a misunderstanding of what was happening associated with that rule caused me to lose that entire group.
This is why a session 0 is a good idea, so unwritten rules and expectations can be voiced and agreed upon, as this tend to vary to some degree depending on what game is about to start up in addition to the player mix. But basically, communication is a great tool that should be tried out and attempted rigorously and repeatedly. If this wasn't done, both parties are equally to blame for lack of insight and foresight. It is a bit drastic to lose the entire group of course, and that they didn't manage to communicate their perspective before it was too late is peculiar, but similarly, to not pick up on what's going on before the group is lost equally peculiar. Unless the group were actively trying to hide and avoid talking about this unwritten rule in an attempt to squeeze out the new guy. Which of course is just a douche move.
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on February 01, 2017, 06:19:07 AM
How true, yet there are players and some GM's who will not have a pre-session to establish some basic guidelines.  In one game where this failed to happen part of the group felt they were seasoned veterans and the rest felt they were first time adventurers never having left home before the scenario started.  It made for a horrible mix-up and the campaign failed within a few sessions.  I myself have received resistance from players to establishing some basic ground rules for character creation.

Perhaps part of that should also be the source of this entire conversation.  Ask how players feel about a failed roll.  Have the discussion.  Do they want Failure, partial success, success, and spectacular success?  Do they want something added in between?  For them what constitutes a failure?
Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: GMLovlie on February 01, 2017, 07:19:37 AM
Session 0 takes training and experience. Trying to establish ground rules or even context, can sometimes throw players off or cause potential hiccups, but in my experience this solves itself with a gentle, but firm guiding hand. I tell the players what would be needed in the campaign: healer, pilot, hacker, ranger ... you know, the environments and level of lethality that I intend or want to use, which is first adjusted based on what they want (if they have any particular wishes) and then adjusted again through game-play depending on their choices and preferences, fear and near-death experiences :pirate: After they've made their characters, hopefully within a few sessions and a couple of levels (I speed level character from 1st to 3rd it seems) they have adapted their characters and spread out the needed skills and responsibilities no one picked up at character creation. I do sometimes need to push a bit though - and the medic in my current group is now thanking me every session because I repeated that option to him again and again during session 0. He was initially perfectly happy with playing an assault rifle wielding yahoo with no other skills, but with a high presence  ??? he's saved the group several times now, as the designated and competent medic.

I've had a few short run campaigns, but really only one proper failure in HARP fantasy, during my college days in the UK... which reminds me to this day that "testing" what a huge fireball can do to 3-4 level ~6 characters (only one seasoned player, a Vampire-player mainly) isn't a great idea if you want to maintain group cohesion and not kill off characters unnecessarily. The players who lost their characters found it entertaining, at first, until they tried to introduce their new characters to the old characters... well, 2 of the 3 who lost their character. They made new characters, but ... the campaign failed at that point due to infighting and issues for some players to keep in-character conflicts from becoming personal conflicts. It should be mentioned it was art-college and a bunch of us were thespians, so the drama was basically a bunch of ego-flourishing nonsense :pirate: We started 7th Sea after that to get a break 8)

Title: Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
Post by: Mordrig on February 01, 2017, 07:56:19 AM
Worst Scenario / short campaign I ever had involved a Spacemaster campaign.  The players were trying to get in some offices in an office tower.  The doors were locked and someone set off the alarm.  Security arrived and were promptly gunned down, and still the players couldn't get past the doors.  The rapid response security team (all heavily armed) showed up and one of the players decided this were getting out of hand so he threw in a grenade, now the room they are trying to fight over was pretty small, nobody had spread out a bit and the blast radius of the grenade was quite large.  Needless to say the session ended with everyone either dead from the grenade or in critical condition and under arrest.  I believe one player actually survived the blast, that was the closest I came to a TPK without actually getting a TPK.  There were quite a few jabs over that one, not at me as GM, but at the player.  Even before he threw the grenade I asked if he was sure he wanted to do that considering the area they were in.