Author Topic: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc  (Read 2071 times)

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Offline Sewercop

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Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« on: April 17, 2012, 03:27:42 PM »
Just looked over the books my cousin got and they do look good.
I do have some questions..

-The books say preferred 50dps per level, thats most likely not gonna fly in our group as that penalize those going for stats.(big time) So if one do not use that option at 1st level are dps x2 for initial levels insted of 100dps?

-Being an adept gives you more dps in just becomming one then it costs to shift profession, one level dips are gonna be plentiful just to pick up stat boosts etc.. Whats you guys take on that?

-Defensive bonuses seems to be to  easy to rack up compared to npc and stock opponents. That was our first beef.. we are going to play it, of course, before we judge it :) But it seems way to easy to rack up 200+ db (as in very very easy, no need to minmax) that do not include tinkering at all...

-how do you kill a virtual presence in a organic body with an implent that it can retract to later if host are dead? or.. how do you kill a virtual presence? can a virtual presence copy itself? and given a virtual presence.. they can have insane amounts of dps.. and players being one will not likely ok to play with 50 dps at all..  just basiic 90 in 4 stats give it 62dps a level.. thats not minmax.. thats plain normal.
will probably ask more later on... havent had the time to look indepth of the system but it looks good.

Offline Sewercop

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Re: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 01:46:25 PM »
No answer at all?

ill just add more questions then :)

-Whats your take on having both low gravity and high gravity talents?

-Will there be erratas coming out?

-Without looking at gear.. Did you have any other concerns then tinkering?

-And why add sysop options... you leave the options open for psionics in virtual presences then next paragraph says its never been heard of... So if its tied to organic body, and since you refer to magical equipment numerous places, do magic only work in harp if you got a body? what about ghosts\spirits.. or are this only psionics?  So a non psionic caster gets a hold of a virtual presence its ok?

and db.. Tough hide,combat armor,shield,= 190 db... thats basic chocie,, even less then  basic,,, how is that not trouble some? your stock npcs got 90 in ob...


Offline markc

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Re: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 02:24:40 PM »
Sewercop,
 It has been a little wile since I have my head in the HARP SF book but I will try and answer your Questions. 


1) DP above 50: You can do DP how ever you wish as the 1st Rule Applies: A GM can change any rule he/she wishes to fir their game universe.
  But the GM also has to take the changes into account with NPC's and other game mechanics.
 1a) x2: IMHO if you do not use the 50 DP per level but some other mechanism I would use the x2 on DP or just a flat number so as to help balance out the various PC's in the group.


2) I do not have a take on the Adapt at this point,


3) DB: Yes it is easy to "rack up DB" but there are also so many other considerations to take into account if your GM uses them in their game universe. 
  a) Can you wear Combat Armor without penalty?
  b) Can you buy Combat Armor with out a special license? Will the Combat Armor be confiscated during a search of a ship or personal belongings? 
  c) What is the upkeep or repair cost for Combat Armor?   
  d) Where can you ware Combat Armor? ie can you wear Combat Armor around the city or any city? Or can you wear it only in lawless lands?
  e) How long does it take to get into Combat Armor? ie is the fight going to be over before the PC can get into the armor?
 As you can see there are many RP things to take into account besides just buy the armor and the PC wears it all of the time. Yes even while sleeping.


4) A.I.'s: I am going to have to look at the rules for A.I.'s and get back to you. This make take me a couple of days and If I do not post here about it please drop me a PM reminding me about it.


5) L G and H G: You cannot have both of these as the are opposites IMHO.
6) errata: if you see errata please put it in a thread and it will be addressed. If you have a PDF from DriveThroughRPG you will get an e-mail telling you when an update has been made and you can download the updated product.
7) Gear: I do not have any comments but if you can bring up something I will comment on it.
8) SysOPs: As to your quote IMHO they are taking about the stock universe in which the game is used. When used in a home universe of your own design the GM will have to make a call on all the options that are dealt with in the stock universe.
 So the book/'s can be used to create your own, adapt existing or use the stock universe for you to play in. The book/'s present you with the material you need to do that.


9) DB and options: See comment above.


MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Sewercop

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Re: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 03:30:19 PM »
Sewercop,
 It has been a little wile since I have my head in the HARP SF book but I will try and answer your Questions. 


1) DP above 50: You can do DP how ever you wish as the 1st Rule Applies: A GM can change any rule he/she wishes to fir their game universe.
  But the GM also has to take the changes into account with NPC's and other game mechanics.
 1a) x2: IMHO if you do not use the 50 DP per level but some other mechanism I would use the x2 on DP or just a flat number so as to help balance out the various PC's in the group.


2) I do not have a take on the Adapt at this point,


3) DB: Yes it is easy to "rack up DB" but there are also so many other considerations to take into account if your GM uses them in their game universe. 
  a) Can you wear Combat Armor without penalty?
  b) Can you buy Combat Armor with out a special license? Will the Combat Armor be confiscated during a search of a ship or personal belongings? 
  c) What is the upkeep or repair cost for Combat Armor?   
  d) Where can you ware Combat Armor? ie can you wear Combat Armor around the city or any city? Or can you wear it only in lawless lands?
  e) How long does it take to get into Combat Armor? ie is the fight going to be over before the PC can get into the armor?
 As you can see there are many RP things to take into account besides just buy the armor and the PC wears it all of the time. Yes even while sleeping.


4) A.I.'s: I am going to have to look at the rules for A.I.'s and get back to you. This make take me a couple of days and If I do not post here about it please drop me a PM reminding me about it.


5) L G and H G: You cannot have both of these as the are opposites IMHO.
6) errata: if you see errata please put it in a thread and it will be addressed. If you have a PDF from DriveThroughRPG you will get an e-mail telling you when an update has been made and you can download the updated product.
7) Gear: I do not have any comments but if you can bring up something I will comment on it.
8) SysOPs: As to your quote IMHO they are taking about the stock universe in which the game is used. When used in a home universe of your own design the GM will have to make a call on all the options that are dealt with in the stock universe.
 So the book/'s can be used to create your own, adapt existing or use the stock universe for you to play in. The book/'s present you with the material you need to do that.


9) DB and options: See comment above.


MDC

1: I think rule nr 1 are the worst defense ever for a game. We do not share this opinion at all. How do you think one are to discuss the merits and flaws of the game if peoples stance are like that. I honestly think we are so far from each other in how we percieve gaming im not sure my answers will be seen as anything but hostile...

1a: Why have dps per stat if you gonna use a flat number... plain stupid. Idc about balance, i care about rules. If there are balance issues due to rules, id rather see those corrected then confusing people with even worse house rules. I understand the rules, my only quetion are if one are to double dps on lvl 1 based on dps per individual stat as in the book, the 100 dps seem to make this correct. 

2: fair enough, its just to good to not dip for a level as it is.

3:
a: Enlighten me.. What impact on db do those penalties have?
b:Gm fiat, that has nothing to do with discussion or question. 
c:see above or show me the rules.
d:See above
e:who cares, as long as there are no penalities for not using it.

ill add my opinion as well then... I dont care for your rolepalying reasons, im here to discuss what it does. Not what you as a gm decide to improvise. Show me the rules or spare me.

4:sure

5:I do agree, but the rules says you can. And the text explains why its not to farfetched. Genetic virus.. Either it needs errata or it will be a very common thing. We most likely gonna housrule it out before even session 1. And i dont see it as powergaming, i see it as an athelete taking a legal supplment compared to an amateur doing nothing extra.

6: Dont think we mean the same when er say errata.. Yours and what ive seen on here looks like you want me to inform of typos.. Im norwegian, hell, im lazy.. My typos are all over the place.  My view on errata are rule changes and things taken away or implemented not in the books.

7:As said, i have not looked at gear yet. The things so far are from just browisng the books.

And again i disagree, its optional rules. And i think some of em stink, they just open for discussions around the table. One says it can and other says it can not.
I can bt i wont jump into discussions to far with you, i just wildly disagree with most you have written. I cant even start answering last you wrote in fair of givng myself a nerd stroke.





Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 10:35:37 PM »
On Page 39, in the section - Stat Bonuses and Development Points, it specifically reviews that there are two options for DP's. Fixed # and Stat Dependent. That is why the Table 4.2 (Stat Bonuses and Stat-Dependent Development Points) includes DP awards.   The SysOp's comments offer further options and on page 40 - there is "SysOp's Choice: Why Fixed DPs per Level?" which explains why the recommendation is to use Fixed values.  The Stat-Dependent version is referenced later in the book as an optional rule, as Fixed is considered the standard, and will be used as the standard in all future HARP products.

As to your question about doubling the DP's for level 1 - yes, you are correct. It is spelled out as follows (bottom of col 1 on page 39 and top of col 2).

Quote
At first level, characters gain 2x their total Development Points. This option is
provided to retain compatibility with original HARP Fantasy rules.


Multiple Professions and their costing is an often discussed issue.  It was addressed carefully in HARP SF, and will be even better handled on the next release of HARP Fantasay.  If you re-read the note on page 36 directly above table 3.1, it specifically talks to the issue of making Adept an Additional Profession. Please review further, and if you still have questions, just let us know and will try to clarify further. It appears that your comments are from a misunderstanding of the benefits of the additional profession, but if you have additional questions after re-reading the rules, please let us know and we'll assist where possible.

I have yet to see a 200+ DB on any character or NPC. I can create it using  talents/abilities (professional and racial) and maxing out with combat armor and blast shield - but I'd be interested to see how you were able to do it without min/max as per your comments.  My guess is that we may have different definitions as to what min/max'ing is, because I would not generally have a character with Tough Hide (Greater) wearing Combat Armor and carrying a Blast Shield without having major negative roleplaying results.  Sure he's a monster in weapon combat... but he's also the primary target for psi attacks, magic (if present in the campaign) and disabling efforts. 

As for the Virtual comment/concern - I'm unfortunately not following you. Could you explain again? Or point me to a specific rules issue from the book.

(On to your 2nd post)
Low Gravity and High Gravity Talents at the same time...
It specifically states that you can't take them together - or with Zero Gravity Adaptation. 
Quote
The character is adapted to a high-gravity environment. These Talents cannot be taken in addition to Low Gravity Adaptation (Minor or Major) or Zero-Gravity Adaptation.
If you wanted to make it a talent granted by some kind of technological equipment, then sure I guess you could - but only one or the other would be in effect at any time.

Errata - Sure... as soon as we get significant amount of errors identified.  I'm sure there are some errors (no book is perfect), however due to the extended length of the beta release most likely the errors were already addressed - but if you find any, please let us know.   Errata is more about clarifying rules that are confusing, and correcting specific typo's, errors, omissions, etc.   If there is need for a rule to changed or a new rule added it could be handled as errata, but a lot of playtesting has gone into the product to try to keep that to a minimum.

Not following what you are asking about tinkering, but feel free to explain further.

SysOp Notes are part of the tradition of Iron Crown.  The standard rules are out there, but as is found throughout most Iron Crown products, there are options available and also there are comments to help you understand the game better including ways where some gamers may abuse rules to negatively impact the game. They are insights into being a better SysOp (aka GM) for HARP SF.   As to the specifics that you are referencing, I couldn't find them so if you can provide more specific references I'll be glad to see what we can answer for you. 

Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 03:23:36 AM »
Just looked over the books my cousin got and they do look good.
I do have some questions..

-The books say preferred 50dps per level, thats most likely not gonna fly in our group as that penalize those going for stats.(big time) So if one do not use that option at 1st level are dps x2 for initial levels insted of 100dps?

Yes. Flat 50 is the preferred option, however, and you really should use it. When I was writing HARP SF, a design goal was to maintain compatibility to HARP (fantasy), and unfortunately it calculates DPs on the basis of actual stats and allows DPs to be used to buy stats. Now that both HARP SF and HARP (fantasy) have been licensed to my company, we're fixing problems that have been around since the creation of the system. However because HARP SF came out before we could properly get started on fixing HARP Fantasy (negotiations with freelance authors who had not been paid by Mjolnir had to be completed first), you will find it has backwards compatible options for older HARP Fantasy.

Quote
-Being an adept gives you more dps in just becomming one then it costs to shift profession, one level dips are gonna be plentiful just to pick up stat boosts etc.. Whats you guys take on that?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. The intention is that if you want to play an Adept or a Fusion, you should start as a member of one of those professions at 1st level. That's why the rules explicitly forbid the psi talents that are Adept/Fusion professional abilities being picked up by any character who changes to an Adept or Fusion at second level or higher.

Quote
-Defensive bonuses seems to be to  easy to rack up compared to npc and stock opponents. That was our first beef.. we are going to play it, of course, before we judge it :) But it seems way to easy to rack up 200+ db (as in very very easy, no need to minmax) that do not include tinkering at all...

It's easier to add extras to the stock NPCs than it is to unpick stuff. So if Combat Armor is trivially available in your setting, then I'd expect to see more NPCs with it too.

Quote
-how do you kill a virtual presence in a organic body with an implent that it can retract to later if host are dead? or.. how do you kill a virtual presence? can a virtual presence copy itself? and given a virtual presence.. they can have insane amounts of dps.. and players being one will not likely ok to play with 50 dps at all..  just basiic 90 in 4 stats give it 62dps a level.. thats not minmax.. thats plain normal.

If the virtual person's only copy of themselves is in the organic body, then if the body dies, they are dead. Otherwise you need to ensure that all copies are destroyed. A virtual character is limited by their level to how many DPs they can have, so I don't see how these can go insane. Unless the stats are randomly rolled, it isn't possible to start with 90s in all 4 stats.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Defensive bonuses vs stock npc
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 03:35:29 AM »
No answer at all?

ill just add more questions then :)

-Whats your take on having both low gravity and high gravity talents?

Explicitly disallowed by the rules. The nature of the genetic adaptation involved is that going for one prevents you getting the other.

Quote
-Will there be erratas coming out?

If errors are found, we'll create an errata page. If there's enough to justify tweaking the products as currently published in pdf and print, then we'll do that. One of my expectations for SysOp's Guide is that it will provide clarifying additional material where this is needed.

Quote
-And why add sysop options... you leave the options open for psionics in virtual presences then next paragraph says its never been heard of... So if its tied to organic body, and since you refer to magical equipment numerous places, do magic only work in harp if you got a body? what about ghosts\spirits.. or are this only psionics?  So a non psionic caster gets a hold of a virtual presence its ok?

The system permits it to be possible but it may not be permitted in a particular setting (and in the case of the default Tintamar universe, we don't allow it). The magic references are only there for compatibility with HARP fantasy.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme