Topic: Psionic questions :)

[Sewercop]

Ill try to keep the questions in one thread as they rear theyre head.

Virtual characters and downloading into the flesh?
The book says that each person either can or can not use psionics. Thats fair. That implies that even if you choose the downloading into the flesh option in Harp extreme you can not cast psionics unless that body has the option to do so. (latent fields etc)
And there is not 100% he has the same fields as you.. still fair

here is the real question..
An adept becomes a virtual character, and can no longer cast psionics.
If he downloads himself into his original body or a clone of it, will he then be able to
use psionics? since psionics are tied to the individual brains structure it makes sense, to me atleast.

regards

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

He cannot download into his own body because the process of uploading is a copy in the Tintamar universe so his mind is still in the original. He could download into a clone. Whether he can use the psi capabilities of the clone depends on whether you rule the quantum entanglements (handwave on) that make psi possible get rebuilt when the mind turns up (of course this is a clone body so they could be new entanglements and not the same.) None of the races in the Tintamar universe (or at least no PC races) are smart enough to be able to manage this - it is left open at this point as to whether this is a law of psi problem or whether you just need much better tech.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Sewercop]

I disagree
Having the books in my lap i can quote im pretty good.

harp scifi, page 197, the basics of psionic says:
-psychic potential arises as a consequense of genetic peculiarites in the brain. Characters cannot train to bee become psionic users. They are either born with or without the potential.
In game terms that means that players that wish their characters to have the potential must purchase appropriate talents for their characters at character creation. i.e 1st level.

-Each psionic field is the result of different physiologiacl abnormalities., so disticnt talents must be purchased for each field.

Harp extreme, page 83,one off recording vs snapshots in time.
-If the process is a transfer, then the persons mind moves into cyberspace, leaving the body a empty husk.
-Medical science can preserve the body for a long time

harp extreme, page 90, downloading into the flesh.
-Downloaded into new biological bodies
-They could equally be unwilling hosts whose original personalities have been erased and replace.
-Once settled in the body,the character may develop all skills and talents normally permitted to a biological character. Including psionics.

Tintamar knowledge base: downloading into the flesh, harp extreme, page 90.
-this tech is suspected to be possible.

Here is my argument,

-you dont copy you transfer. If the transfer is illegal, then you copy>then you wipe the host mind>then you download.

-Argument for using psionics. The body are geneticly the same. Psionics are geneticly tied to the body you download into. Its still the same body, you still have all your talents and skill.
You still have acsess to psionics because that body are geneticly compatible for it. If you were to download to a body where the brain didnt have it. No psionics. If you download into a body with diff psioncs latent, you need develop those skills, but may never use the other psi. Due to genetic as established in the main book. Raw perhaps not rai.

-The knowledge base confirms the tech is out there(basicly), just illegal.

The rules support it, but i dont know if its intended to be supported.

The fun part are the rules about virtual chars and psionics, the tintamar knowledge base and how noone have transferred psionics into virtual chars. Proving again psionics are tied to a body. As already established in the main book.
Even the main book says its possible to download into biological constructs under the download form talent. And if its a clone, the genetic peculiarities would be there.

tldr:
The rules says psionics are tied to body(brain and genetics).You can download into a body.
The one thing that can stop it are a gm. Since there are no gm(or common sense) in this discussion, its rules as written legal. Rules as intended, probably not.

Regards

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Harp extreme, page 83,one off recording vs snapshots in time.
-If the process is a transfer, then the persons mind moves into cyberspace, leaving the body a empty husk.
-Medical science can preserve the body for a long time

page 84, in Tintamar, it is a copying process / snapshots in time. page 83 is the general rule - SysOp needs to choose for non-Tintamar universes.

What no one can currently do is preserve the psionic transfer from original biological to virtual. That's where the SysOp needs to decide if the break is final or not.

I'm not saying that it is or is not possible. These things are precisely the sorts of things that make for interesting discoveries in a campaign.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Sewercop]

Harp extreme, page 83,one off recording vs snapshots in time.
-If the process is a transfer, then the persons mind moves into cyberspace, leaving the body a empty husk.
-Medical science can preserve the body for a long time

page 84, in Tintamar, it is a copying process / snapshots in time. page 83 is the general rule - SysOp needs to choose for non-Tintamar universes.

What no one can currently do is preserve the psionic transfer from original biological to virtual. That's where the SysOp needs to decide if the break is final or not.

I'm not saying that it is or is not possible. These things are precisely the sorts of things that make for interesting discoveries in a campaign.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

I dont disagree about that. No where is it listed that you can take psionic into a virtual character. What I AM saying are that the rules support the fact that the body(original character) still can cast psionics. And since you say its a copy in the tintamar setting by default. I then say I wipe the original mind. And then transfer into the flesh. Or i clone my original body and then still have psionics in that one. That the rules do support.. Even if my character is breaking some laws.. Thankfully i have minmaxed forensics (at least thats my plan now)

More likely im a mad person expermenting on himself

And if its a fun discovery in a campaign.. For me.. No.
I dont like to be *@$*#* over midways in a game. Sure, if a new books come out ill have no prob with that.
But if im playing an adept going into virtual character i wanna know if you gonna skullfuck me senseless singing i cant hear ya after three sessions when i download into my original preserved body that i heavily invested in.
If you then make it so bad im just a walking comical relief because you can. Then id simply move my ass out the door.
So the answer is no. I dont find that fun at all. If you plan to screw me like a hot dollar hooker 3 hours before the end of the world, atleast be upfront about it.

That would be my reaction...

Ps.
For those of you wondering why im discussing with the man with the name on the book..
-because he actually respond
-i think its a good thing to discuss rules
-i know he can put erratas in place(thats a good thing) that ban my ideas(mostly a good idea).
-I think discussions like this in long term clarify the game
-If we dont discuss the rules, the designers will never know if we disagree

regards
ps.Id love to see other lurkers posting more rule questions.. it only helps the game.

[Ecthelion]

Sewercop, please use more appropriate language. Using the f*** word is certainly not necessary to make your point  .

[Sewercop]

I will.

Question
How do you handle telekinesis and the crash rules in harp extreme?
Its hands down game breaking if used to toss people around. Or better, toss objects into people.

Raw its fun, but not really balanced.(understatement)

[naphta23]

Just my opinion as a GM. I have not read the rules (Telekinesis & HARP SF Extreme crash rules), yet, so this are just some suggestions or ideas right out of the box.

Using Telekinesis to mess with people, be it directly or indirectly, is fun and all, no doubt, but that should not the solution for most of the encounters.

I would rule that the victim of a direct telekinetic attack should have a resistance roll or saving throw, since he is a sentient being and would rarely agree to such treatment, I guess.

With an indirect telekinetic attack, I would assume that the victim has eyes and ears and thus should have the ability or option to sidestep such an attack. Many people see suprisingly much through the corner of their eyes and have sufficient reflexes to block or dodge a soccer ball somebody is throwing at them, for example.

In my opinion, the GM should use some common sense, but should not forget drama and fairness. Perhaps the NPC is awake, alert and suspecting an attack - but when the players have a great idea, need some slack or are roleplaying this well and outright entertainingly, why not roll with that? 

*edit*
PS: Sewercop, I appreciate your questions, thoughts and critical reading of HARP SF rules. Thanks!

[talsharien]

Yes I agree. As a rule of thumb any offensive situation that can harm or kill would generally require a dice roll from the attacking  and defending parties.

Always be aware that any attack forms and rulings that you make available to your players are also available to your NPC's.

Many years ago a player in a game argued a ball shape absolution spell (Arcane Companion) should have no RR. This is unacceptable as I do not want to arm NPC's with attack forms that can kill with no way for the players to survive.

[naphta23]

*cough*tomb of horrors*cough* 

[Sewercop]

You get a rr if you are targeted with telekinesis. But fail that and you are dead. If all npc make the rr.. gm cheating id call that if oyu were minmaxed for telekinesis. just toss objects into people.. take a wall. take wahtever.. just make sure its so big the target cant dodge out of the size of square feet.. the gm cant say anything.. he can hit you with books thou.

fusion and adept are so unbalanced compared to the other classes its unfun.  Its ok on the lower levels.. if you dont minmax.. but higher up you just stomp em.

[naphta23]

That is a rather good point. 

But on the other hand, if you drive a mediumsized car, you could take out some NPCs with almost no work at all, too. And you would not even need psionics.

That needs some balancing, if this is that easy. The next few days I am going to take a look at those rules, if there is no clarification that evens that out, we should work out a solution to that.

N'est pas? 

[Sewercop]

yup, the crash rules and driving rules are pretty decent. At least i think they are(away from the books), it is telekinesis that do not function as intended.They might have intended it, but its doubtful. If you needed to develop an attack skill with objects you fling with telekinesis it would be nerfed. Still higly useful, but nerfed. You still would be the fastest thing in the books except starships and vehicles. You might get faster in space if you wanna debate physics but let us not do that

The crash rules seems sound, telekinesis needs a tweak. I actually think its ok to smack someone starwars style into a wall if they fail a rr. Becasue they atleast get a rr. I do not think its ok to smack 30 objects into a palyer or npc and go simpsons style haha while they cant do jack. Thats where the tweaking needs be done. Imo

My french are bad, but i did know that one.

[naphta23]

Thanks for the clarification. 

As already written, I am going to take a look at that, perhaps I or we can find a solution to that. 

If no developer or author is faster than us. 

[pastaav]

You get a rr if you are targeted with telekinesis. But fail that and you are dead. If all npc make the rr.. gm cheating id call that if oyu were minmaxed for telekinesis. just toss objects into people.. take a wall. take wahtever.. just make sure its so big the target cant dodge out of the size of square feet.. the gm cant say anything.. he can hit you with books thou.

My interpretation of the rules is that the rr part is only if you try to move a character against its will. Hurled attacks are resolved like any other hurled objects, and there are severe limits on how much telekinesis can lift so if you take a wall then it must be very thin for you to lift it. Players might argue that the large and super thin wall should do full damage since it has the right weight, but I and many other GMs would rule that only part of the object hit the target if the hurled object is too large. This would result in reduced damage potential.
 

fusion and adept are so unbalanced compared to the other classes its unfun.  Its ok on the lower levels.. if you dont minmax.. but higher up you just stomp em.

Are you speaking from play experience? I such case I would be interested to hear the details.

I have not had the time to do actually test making psi characters, but my thought after reading the psi rules was that the cost for psi seems rather massive.

[Sewercop]

You get a rr if you are targeted with telekinesis. But fail that and you are dead. If all npc make the rr.. gm cheating id call that if oyu were minmaxed for telekinesis. just toss objects into people.. take a wall. take wahtever.. just make sure its so big the target cant dodge out of the size of square feet.. the gm cant say anything.. he can hit you with books thou.

My interpretation of the rules is that the rr part is only if you try to move a character against its will. Hurled attacks are resolved like any other hurled objects, and there are severe limits on how much telekinesis can lift so if you take a wall then it must be very thin for you to lift it. Players might argue that the large and super thin wall should do full damage since it has the right weight, but I and many other GMs would rule that only part of the object hit the target if the hurled object is too large. This would result in reduced damage potential.
 

fusion and adept are so unbalanced compared to the other classes its unfun.  Its ok on the lower levels.. if you dont minmax.. but higher up you just stomp em.

Are you speaking from play experience? I such case I would be interested to hear the details.

I have not had the time to do actually test making psi characters, but my thought after reading the psi rules was that the cost for psi seems rather massive.

Yeah, but i dont hurl em. I move as stated in telekinesis. Too bad if a player is in the way. You cant argue for a gm in a rules discussion. In a game, of course. We did that as well.

The reason psionics are better then hte rest are simple. You can do things other can not do. When you level every skill flattens out. The psionics guy have an extra set of skills that are better then the rest.  You can invalidate other players with the right selection of psionics. It probably will not be a problem in most groups, but when they occur it kills the fun.

Id like to give you concret exsamples but im away from the books and i dont want to quote something wrong. I can respond a later day.

[pastaav]

Yeah, but i dont hurl em. I move as stated in telekinesis. Too bad if a player is in the way. You cant argue for a gm in a rules discussion. In a game, of course. We did that as well.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. If you don't try to injure them they by hurling stuff at them they both get a rr to resist the effect totally and they should have plenty of time to get out of the way if they fail.

The reason psionics are better then the rest are simple. You can do things other can not do. When you level every skill flattens out. The psionics guy have an extra set of skills that are better then the rest.  You can invalidate other players with the right selection of psionics. It probably will not be a problem in most groups, but when they occur it kills the fun.

My understanding is that psionic powers cost lots of dp to learn in the first place and after you have activated them you also need to train with them. To make things worse you need to upfront sacrifice DP to at later level have the option to purchase more abilities than the few the Adept and Fusion get for free. All in all the psionic guy has a much more limited set of skills than other professions because much of the DP need to go to the psi powers.

[Thom @ ICE]

Yeah, but i dont hurl em. I move as stated in telekinesis. Too bad if a player is in the way. You cant argue for a gm in a rules discussion. In a game, of course. We did that as well.

The reason psionics are better then hte rest are simple. You can do things other can not do. When you level every skill flattens out. The psionics guy have an extra set of skills that are better then the rest.  You can invalidate other players with the right selection of psionics. It probably will not be a problem in most groups, but when they occur it kills the fun.

Id like to give you concret exsamples but im away from the books and i dont want to quote something wrong. I can respond a later day.

Based upon your interpretation, a player could state that they are throwing their spear at the door.  The fact that their foe stands between them and the door means that they get hit automatically... that interpretation doesn't work for weapons - and it doesn't work for telekinesis.  If you want to do damage to someone you must roll an attack of some sort, and they get a defense (which may be in the form of an RR for certain situations).

The rules state -

Using the Hurled Attack Tier-specific and Mass abilities, the adept can hurl one object telekinetically at a target per round, making a Physical Attack using the skill bonus in this Discipline as the OB on the Crush or Impact Critical Tables (SysOp’s discretion).

A Physical Attack means that it is the same as throwing an object at a target and the target gets to apply appropriate defense to dodge the attack (including protection from appropriate armor or other defenses).

I would need to see the specific example that can justify treating a telekinetic object movement as nothing more than a movement, but still result in damage criticals to an individual without allowing defense to come into play.  I can only do it when creating ridiculous images, and all of them could exist more easily in a non-telekinetic environment than a telekinetic one.


By the way - the interpretation that attempting to move an individual is equal to a psionic attack and results in an RR Will check for the target.

[Usdrothek]

I have a telekinesis issue in my game. Since it is my first experience with HARP scifi I just let players build characters with no restrictions (my bad).

One player is an adept, pretty min maxed with Tier 5 Telekinesis and 20 ranks in the discipline. He can hurl very heavy objects very fast, but the issue come when he tries to move people. I realise that the target gets a RR against the TK, but if he fails....well he can get tossed about like a yo-yo for minutes, way longer than a combat will run. Slam a guy into a wall or the ground every round until he dead and short of the adept dying, there is no way for the victim to break out.

Am I reading it right? Or am I missing something?

[Thom @ ICE]

I would rule that every time the object you are tossing about comes into contact with a fixed object (slamming the guy into the wall) you temporarily lose control of the object for a moment and I would allow the target a chance to resist the attack - effectively a new RR every round.  Otherwise you would be telekinetically moving the object to the space next to the wall and not doing damage.  The only way to do damage is to try to occupy the space beyond it - causing a momentary disruption.  Additionally, every minute a new mental focus check is required (with increased penalties).