Topic: HARP SF EXTREME QUESTIONS ?

[area51games]

personally I found most militray vessels are faster, tougher, and able to at lease deal a little more damage then say the Civilian Light frighter?
or was those typos or a mistake on the scoutship
also  these vehicles are suppose to be futuristic or at lease sci fi
can they have some more features please.
thier is nothing i have found yet on speed of communication, or how the Fed handles vehicles faster then comm, or the effect of the free market on the trade and merchant class if ships are so expensive how do common people afford them?
if only adventure can afford ships what dose it cost to import and expoert by weight? what is the market and share of a ship ?
what is the average pay to a crew memeber compaired ot a bridge crew memeber , what are the ship postitions
Pilot, Engineer , Com & sCANNERS, Astronav- Steward ? Fuel specialist? computer specialist?
to all ships come with AI ?
WHAT IS THE MILITARY RANKS? PER 5 dv?
Sargent
Ensign
sub-Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain
----?
what is thier pay while on active duty
is the star soldier different?

HOW DO YOU GET A SHIP BUILT?
where are the ship yards
what about planets and new races , do i imprt from Spacemaster?
then why do I not just play space master?

[area51games]

ok
sorry for the dyslexic  last message.
so here are the question
why is the scout ship lesser than a light fright but cost more?
what are the military ranks  title for the star soldier, Astro-Navy, Merchants, scouts
how do you buy a ship is the develop point the only way?
how much dose it cost to ship a 1000 k of anything to another planet ?
like an Aircar , is their a set price per kilo per light year?

[pyrotech]

I don't know the official number for how expensive it is to move 1 ton of material 1 ly, but I did some estimates for myself.

I assumed 6 au to a portal and 6 au from L5 to the destination.  I assumed a living wage of 10 cr/hr for skilled workers (this seems to mesh with the cost of living expenses).  I assumed a 12 hr work day for ship crew.  I assumed most stuff is being moved by light freighters. I assumed an average hyperspace distance from portal to destination of 128 ly (this is about the average of the 39 destinations from earth).  I assumed 30 ly from the destination to another portal back.

Given these assumptions I calculated the wages to be about 40000 credits per round trip.  This made the wages somewhat insignificant compared to other costs.  I also calculated the energy requirements for each leg to be about 16.5M EN.  The cost of energy in the book is 10mSol/EN, resulting in a fuel cost of about 165,000 sol per 7770 tons.  Remembering it takes 3 hyperspaces to move the two loads I multiplied the energy costs by 1.5.  I Added up these costs then doubling them to account for wear and tear to the ship and owner profits and resulted in a price of 75 credits per ton per 128 ly.

Given the hideous amounts of fuzz and assumptions in this calculation I have no problem rounding it up to 1 credit/ton/ly.

I sure hope someone double checks my math and logic here, because there sure is enough room for a lot of stupid mistakes.

[international1]

This is important information.  When I ran a space master campaign the costs of ship upkeep were ridiculous and didn't seem to make sense.  It needs to be cost effective for someone to transport cargo and have money to pay for fuel, salaries, routine maintenance.  Don't even consider what being a pirate really costs since you would need to also factor in repair do to ship damage. 

[pyrotech]

The cost of travel/transportation is key for many tramp freighter games.  I could see this being important information for a Tintamar setting book. 

As for the original question about the difference between a scout ship and a light freighter.  The scout ship has three times the guns, twice the armor, twice the acceleration and speed, and an EW suite built into it's price.  I'm not really sure why the freighter is more maneuverable and faster to respond than the scout ship however.  I also believe the scout ship comes with additional science labs and scanners that the freighter just wouldn't bother with.

I would assume these reasons drive the cost of the scout ship far above the cost of the freighter.


I believe the rank progression for the Astronavy is included in the core book:

"Cadets who graduate become Sublieutenants,
and in due course, are promoted through the ranks of Lieutenant,
Lieutenant-Commander (responsible for a section such as
engineering, comms/sensors, gunnery, etc.), and eventually to the
command positions of Commander (executive officer on larger
ships) and Captain. Squadrons and fleets are commanded by flag
officers (Rear Admirals, Vice Admirals, or Admirals). Commodore
is an appointment in the AstroNavy enabling junior captains to
command small task forces without risk of seniority conflicts with
other, more experienced captains."

If I remember correctly the star soldiers is on the next page.

Scouts and the like probably follow a very similar rank progression

-Pyrotech

[Thom @ ICE]

I believe the rank progression for the Astronavy is included in the core book:

"Cadets who graduate become Sublieutenants,
and in due course, are promoted through the ranks of Lieutenant,
Lieutenant-Commander (responsible for a section such as
engineering, comms/sensors, gunnery, etc.), and eventually to the
command positions of Commander (executive officer on larger
ships) and Captain. Squadrons and fleets are commanded by flag
officers (Rear Admirals, Vice Admirals, or Admirals). Commodore
is an appointment in the AstroNavy enabling junior captains to
command small task forces without risk of seniority conflicts with
other, more experienced captains."

If I remember correctly the star soldiers is on the next page.

Scouts and the like probably follow a very similar rank progression
-Pyrotech

See Page 23

there are no enlisted men. Cadets who graduate become Sublieutenants,
and in due course, are promoted through the ranks of Lieutenant,
Lieutenant-Commander (responsible for a section such as
engineering, comms/sensors, gunnery, etc.), and eventually to the
command positions of Commander (executive officer on larger
ships) and Captain. Squadrons and fleets are commanded by flag
officers (Rear Admirals, Vice Admirals, or Admirals). Commodore
is an appointment in the AstroNavy enabling junior captains to
command small task forces without risk of seniority conflicts with
other, more experienced captains. All junior officers are expected
to have one primary section specialty and one secondary specialty.

As for the rest of the issues raised, I have flagged the thread to Nicholas to comment on.
For my HARP SF campaigns we never worry about those details.  Instead we use the powers that be at Translight Survey to simply send my adventurers to new worlds....

[area51games]

thank you for the response.
I need to read closer, in the core book and other, sorry.
I have a player who suggested that comparative to our current world freighters -light, that the cost of owning a  freighter- light is prohibitive to cargo/ merchant enterprising. 
I have sermonized from my experience with other Sci-fi game that the mortgage of a ship is multi-generational.
I have played such games that list a kind of standard cargo list with a random effects for each port and planet.
Also what about each planets laws and technological.
like in the fire fly series the planets on the outer edge where more primitive in tech, even though the rich had availability to hi tech .
I have said this before else where, but in the future maybe a book specialization in each profession could be offered.
a merchant profession book could have these and many more for a merchant campaign, or if you  do not think enough material for each profession,  maybe a dual profession book.
My Campaign: we do not need any more heroes
sessions 1-we do not need no combat droids
session 2 -we do not need no conscription
session 3 we do not need no  saboteurs
session 4 we do not need no limited editions 
currently I am running a campaign where the players are all different profession aboard a merchant ship that
has been conscripted as an state of emergency to run a blockade network. the Astro-navy - using a  trade certification  clause , made up> called article 66 : that in a time of war or emergency all Federation merchant vessel certified for intersteller commerce and transport and bear or carreing-Astro navy contracts are on reserve status to be called upon
in exchange all fees and discounts for Astro navy fueling stations are enacted.
now the Astro navy has called these reserve merchant ships to stand a 40 ly net work , that if a silkie scout vessel runs the network one ship well notifies another and so on to warn the Fleet.
i digress for a moment
because I can not find any where so far the technological means of information transference or communication means the Astro navy has other then ships with Drives that that travel faster then standard communication relays or faster then light, so a boat or express boat means is the only thing i can think of, unless you want to consider tachyon or quantum string theory, but then you have to consider transporters and telepathic issues , can an adept communicate faster then light if they are hooked up to a so called tachyon booster? 
another thought  That came up in play
can a ship sacrifice cargo space to have bigger missiles and torpedo s and launch tubes , witch in a real world setting happen in world war two- little boats carried two torpedo s that could sink a larger vessel.
so to summarize the questions
commerce
communication
then the postulation of Professional themed books.
ship modifications

[pyrotech]

Well using my calculations above and assuming 1/2 of the owner/ship expense went to the owner and the other half went to maintaining the ship that would mean about a 56 year return on investment. 

From my experience in the real world investors are looking for a better ROI than that.  Typically I would expect a ship to have an effective operating life of about 30 years before major refits are needed.  So if I add another credit per ton-ly to the cost, bring it to 2 creds/ton/ly then the ROI is about 22 years.  At this point it is profitable just for the freight costs. 

But I would note that this is only for pure freight costs.  At 1 cred/ton/ly it doesn't make sense for pure shipping companies to exist (although with no FTL communications they could supplement this income with data shipments as well).  Actual merchant ships could expect to buy locally cheap items, ship them to a destination with higher prices and sell them.  This is the classic free trader model.  It has a lot more risks but the profits of the sale could increase the ROI.

-Pyrotech

[markc]

 I might double that number to 4 or 5 to account for tariffs, entry fees, ship upkeep, insurance, non standard fees (bribes), etc.


MDC

[pyrotech]

I was thinking about tariffs and port costs as well.  But those can vary a lot.  I suppose you could use a roll on a table to determine that, but I'm not a fan of pure random factors.  I would prefer the GM decide how high these should be.  Typically these kinds of fees depend on exactly what the freight is, and are not just based on mass and distance shipped.

I think I would give a rough guideline to my players of 5 credits/ton-ly shipping cost (to account for berthing fees and other port fees and usage costs of the portals) plus any tariffs on the goods.  The tariffs on the goods only apply when unloading them at a port and would be a percentage of the value of the cargo.

At least until I see a better figure 87)

-Pyrotech

[Wolfhound]

You know... if someone wanted to do an semi-in-depth analysis of this and put together details on such pricing and costs and wanted to write up an article on the subject for the http://www.guildcompanion.com/, I suspect it would be a well-read and useful article...   hint hint

Regardless of that though I think the key to such info is to try to be sure that the prices/costs are not too high either.  One thing to keep in mind is that different GM's may want to include such higher tariffs, gate-use tolls, docking fees, and bribes; while others may assume that such things are relatively cheap and low and not bother with them.  So to some degree those costs and prices may need to be varied somewhat based on the GM and their interpretation of the setting. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that there will likely not only be some variation on tariffs and such based on what the shipment is, but also on what is charged for such shipments (things that have higher tariffs will tend to have a higher shipping charge, things that require more handling (in transit or in loading/unloading) may have higher charges involved as well.  As an example of this (someone had made a firefly reference earlier, or maybe that was in a different thread on a similar subject), when Serenity was used to ship the cattle, that added a bit of additional work (not only in handling, but also the cleanup after they were unloaded, as I'm sure Jain wasn't happy about having to hose down and squeegee the cargo hold deck afterwards). 

Likewise not all freight is of similar density and thus doing an across the board mass measurement may not always be the best way to handle it (for example, some of my employers many products an entire semi-load weighs only a couple of tons, whereas some others you can't fill up a semi with the product as it would exceed the weight limits on the roads (many of these are often times shipped by rail when possible).  Likewise some of our products need special handling due to the extremely hazardous nature, which drastically increases our shipping costs. 

So there should probably be some built-in variability to such numbers for some types of freight for various reasons.  But it would be good to have such values defined, even if only loosely. 

But this is an interesting discussion so far on this subject. 

[pyrotech]

Hmm that would be an interesting article to write, unfortunately I come from flyover country and large scale shipping experience is a bit hard to come by in my group of friends.  If I can find some good research material on tariffs and actual shipping costs I might be able to come up with an interesting article - but I suspect someone with better experience on the topic could do better than I.

While thinking about this topic I did brainstorm up an interesting idea.  Since tariffs are so variable and affected mostly by the origin, destination, and contents - would a chart cross-referencing the cultures be able to simplify this?  For example corporate worlds are likely to have high tariffs on materials not from their company - especially items from competitors. So if a table showed Corporate on one axis, corporate on another axis, and a numeric factor as the lookup with a special note (indicating a lower factor for in company shipments) how reasonable would this be.  It is of course a gross simplification, but one that would be fairly easy to use.  A second table could be used with a factor for type of goods vs. culture of the destination.  Just total the two lookups then multiply it by the declared value of the goods to determine the tariff.  I may even include another table to show trade agreements (i.e. a roll of 98 means a free trade agreement with no tariff at all, but a 04 means embargo).

So my question is would this be helpful for someone?  Is it too simplified?  Is it too complicated?  Is the predominate culture of the planets a reasonable reference to use for this?  I haven't had a good opportunity to really think hard about it.

-Pyrotech

[area51games]

I think it can work , if some one can write it up, it would be a great part of that merchant profession book i was talking about or maybe  profession series of articles in the guild Q ?
here is a ideal I had of items that can be randomized and still be customed , maybe used as spring board  of what in on the local planet market.
Merchandise               
Agriculture Equipment
Antiques and historical artifacts
Animal stock live
ANIMAL Exotic/zoo
Armor personal
Armor Vehicle
Armor Ship
Biological material /waste
Component part s industrial
Component part s Electronics
Construction  equipment
Construction materials
Cybernetic
Domestic
Droids/Robots
Electronics
Experimental /prototype
Foodstuff
Industrial Waste
Junk Metals
Medical equipment
Menial ore
Paper/Print
Pharmaceuticals
Power generators
Space vessel parts
Telecommunications
Transports
Weapons
 Base trade value
d10x 1000x Quality x Quantity       
 Base quality   
1d10 range from 1 terrible { -15/-1) to superior 10 (+10)
1 -15 , 2 -10, 3 -5, 4 -/+ 0, 5 +2 ,6+4,7+6,8+8, 9+9,10+10
Base Quantity
d10 x d10 kiloliters/cubic meters/tons

[pyrotech]

I've been researching the freight rate and tariff rates topic a bit and found something that may be useful for players looking for real world comparisons.

A 40' shipping container costs about $3750 to ship about 2000 nautical miles by sea without tariffs, but with insurance (for $100,000 of contents).  It takes about 4 days for the container ship to cover this distance.  A 40' container maxes out at about 30 tons of capacity.  Using my cost of living estimates I put the conversion of credits to real world cash at about 1 sol = $2US = 1 British Pound.  Running the math on this I come to a number of about 18 credits/metric ton/day traveled. 

A number that high gives a lot of room for additional insurance, higher wages, and much faster return on investment for the ship's owner.

It also turns out that the US government has a pretty easy to follow webpage for Harmonized Tariff.  An awful lot of items get a fixed cost per unit mass/volume instead of % of value, but I have been able to make some broad averages.

Using this I may see if there is enough information for me to make a stab at writing an actual article on this. 

I've also been thinking more on the source and destination chart idea I had.  The more I think about it the less sense it makes to me.  I'm leaning more towards an average tariff rate by type of item and culture, modified by trade agreement factor.  This should be simpler and hopefully more realistic.

Sorry to ramble on, but hopefully this information is useful to someone.

-Pyrotech

[Wolfhound]

Sounds like a very interesting approach to tackling such costs.  I would love to see such an article and I'm sure that there are plenty of others who would as well.  I was hoping to do something along those lines if nothing "official" came out in the published books covering such things. 

That was the one thing I liked the most about the original Traveller system (didn't care much for the system mechanics, but their economic and transport info was great) was the breakdown and explanation of such things of such things so that a crew could do transport runs just hauling cargo from place to place (and then the Gm could throw in some intrigue or other side adventures into the mix to make things interesting). 

[area51games]

yes the Merchant prince is a good Campaign model for adventure, just trying to make a living kind of game with the drama of a crew living together kind of like a Television show I saw once it was fire bug or something.

[Wolfhound]

The TV show you are talking about was probably "Firefly" which was developed and produced by Josh Weiden  (sp??).  And yes it was a very good show that dealt with daily life of such a crew (among other things).

[markc]

pyrotech,
 Yes I think it is a great idea for an article and for general ease of use I might bump the number's up to 20 cred or some other easy multiplier for younger gamer's.
  I would also hope you could list the real world web pages you got your info from as it might also be of use to a lot of others out there.


MDC

[area51games]

hey Wolfhound , i WAS BEING SARCASTIC, I Know it was Fire Fly that why I have a quote from the series on my post-LOL! all is well .

[pyrotech]

Well I'm still reality checking things before I ever even start putting words to the page.  An article like this could easily get unmanageable without a clear scope and sufficient starting information.

I'd be more than willing to share my sources so far (if I can find them all again).  This would allow someone else to double check me if they were interested enough.

I used the following site to determine the cost of Los Angeles to Honalulu.  Interstate sea travel avoids most tariff concerns, but still gets you the container ship rates.  I could also get guidelines for how much additional insurance added to the cost from this site.
http://worldfreightrates.com/freight

I just googled the distance between honolulu and LA for that number.

The following site gave me the weight capacity of a 40' container:
http://www.apl.com/equipment/html/equipment_specs_standard.html

Wikipedia gave me the container ship speed.  I rounded down to 20 knots to account for accel/decel, unfavorable weather, and other delays.  Plus that makes the math a little simpler.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_ship

I believe I've previous talked about my guesstimate on gold piece and credit conversion rate to real world currency.  But it boils down to comparing the cheap daily rate of a hotel/inn as a guideline for the regular persons daily living costs (housing, food, and everyday consumables).  Add in to that clothing and entertainment costs (which vary a lot).  But if I remember this properly the book says 25 credits a night for a cheap hotel.  That means 10,000 credits per year as a number for just getting by.  I equate that to a real life income of about $20,000 a year.  This means a $2 to 1 credit ratio.  Checking this back against the hotel costs, a cheap hotel is about $50 US a night, which is 2x the credit costs.

And here is the harmonized tariff site that I roughly averaged together. 
http://hts.usitc.gov/
I had to make a few assumptions such as: item a 25%, item b 25%, item c 250%, item d 25% - item c is probably a protected item and is artificially higher than the others.  In many of these radically higher percentages they are often 10x higher than similar items in the category.  So I'm calling the 10x factor the level at which highly protected goods are taxed vs regular items in the category.

On another note, I think this post levels me up!  Time for my gold star I think!

-Pyrotech