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Offline GMLovlie

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Starship summary
« on: December 18, 2016, 02:59:29 PM »
So.

1) Starship sub-light travel summary: you expend energy = mass x acceleration to get to chosen speed. I can't find information on how much energy you expend to maintain speed, if any.

2) Space combat: distance is in km - but to be frank, I don't get moving in space combat, closing distance, and so on. I get that acceleration has something to do with it, but there doesn't seem to be a clear or suggested way of keeping track of speed and distance in combat - or is it only acceleration we need to care about?
-I've found only one reference to distance and movement, and that is that the winner of the initiative decides how close enemies can get to his or her ship... does this then apply to all known enemies present? Or just one?

3) I understand the supportive manoeuvres, but has anyone made a handy table summarising this?
-from reading the section it can also seem that EW and sensors needs to be rolled every round - but I gather from the example that EW is added to DB every round (as long as it has a dedicated operator?). And as long as it hasn't been disabled.

4) Also, do you expend any energy during combat?

5) And can you use the table with these manoeuvres: "double back", "Quick turn" and "Stunt" from the top of table 1.1 in space combat? Or is space combat basically boiled down to: offensive, defensive or offensive/defensive flying?
-About offensive/defensive flying, this adds another -20, is this also (potentially) negated by the combat driving style?
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 04:22:41 AM »
And another thing: flying while shooting, the little SysOp's Choice thing on page 59 in Xtreme. Do you make two checks that round? One for the flying, and then one for shooting? Or do you apply whatever bonus from the bonus column to your initial roll and use that as the attack roll?
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 04:20:27 PM »
Ok. Let's see what I can speculate in completely non-scientific game speech...

It should be said that my version of Tintamar is... not really Tintamar. I'm calling it Sepsis, yeah, I know. There's no FTL (yet) and speeds max out at 0.025 to 0.035c, acceleration higher than 300 is unheard of, but speculations and conspiracies flourish. So the below isn't a suggestion for the game itself. Still, feedback and suggestions would be great :)

1: Would it be too much to say that to maintain speed would require energy per day equal to mass x acceleration/100 ? So the Angelica with a mass of 1000, going from Eris to Jupiter, a journey of a distance of ~35 AU (in 2281) with 300G acceleration, would require 1000x3 = 3000 energy per day? This would, with Angelica's top speed of 0.025c require a total of about 24000 energy units - it should be a bit more than 8 days total by my account.

So, trying to write the equation:
  • AU*hours per AU at top speed: 35*5,56 = 194,6 hours.
  • Deduct time for acceleration and deceleration 2*0,69 = 1,38 = 193,22 hours maintaining speed (if it is safe to assume that by removing said time you remove distance travelled, which the social scientist in me believes to be ok.)
  • Divide by 24 and you get: 8 days add ~13 minutes (22*0,6).
I know there are some fractions in there, but this is still a game. Right?  8)
  • So in total the journey would require 1000*300*1,38 = 414000 plus 24000 energy units.
  • 438000 energy units expended going from Eris to Jupiter
Too detailed? It's just that I want to play with fuel and one of my players it way too much into the math and science, and he hopes this new game to be real hard sci-fi after a year and a half of Star Wars.

I was thinking about mass/1000 too. So 300 per day to maintain speed. But perhaps mass/1000 is more fitting per combat turn (1 minute)? And divide by 30 to get per 2 second round?

I had some thoughts on going inwards and outwards in the system too, proximity to the sun and massive gas giants ... but I figured that's ;) too fiddly and I feel perhaps this route is going against the design idea behind the gravitic technology presented in the game.

I'm letting a good astrogation checks result in reduced travel time, which in turn reduces fuel consumption - or just fuel consumption, for instance 1 percent fewer energy units per 20 over 101. To represent how making use of the gravitational forces in the solar system is a boon.

2: I guess here I must adhere to narration on my players' part as well as my own ideas about the encounter. I quite like this idea that a detailed game like this leaves it (seemingly) somewhat open. I'll let pilots decide how much they want to try to decrease or increase distance, then use the percentage column to determine how much closer/further away of the distance they declared they got... it seems like too much book keeping, but there must be a better way than the "winner of the initiative" ... of course this could force increases in acceleration and daring manoeuvres into asteroid belts to lose pursuers... and initiative changes every round, potentially.

3: making my own.

4: see 1.

5: I would assume these only apply in atmosphere, or in really close dog-fights.
-I'm ruling the additional -20 can also be off-set by combat driving. Until further notice.

Second post: I'll have the player make a second roll, even if that strictly speaking becomes two actions in one round/turn.
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Offline pyrotech

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 08:14:07 PM »
Ok, I don't have my books or notes handy right now so I'm going off of memory.

For energy consumption in space.

1) Use the charts in SF-Xtreme or calculate the time to accelerate to full speed.  Use the grav drive energy consumption rate in the book to determine energy cost to reach full speed.  In system flight time after accel does not use the grav drive at this point until it needs to decel for hyperspace.  The ship does need to power the basic systems and shields during this time however.  Use the same energy cost for decel to zero as accel to speed (not technically true, but close enough for most people that don't want "Attack Vector" level of simulation.

For the portion of flight not accelerating/decelerating use a daily energy/operating cost.  I don't believe I am allowed to speak too much on this, but for a older tech (relative to Tintamar) kind of setting a number such as 50 Energy per total ton per day would certainly pass my sniff test.  That should allow for operating basic sensors, life support, shields, and miscellaneous power loads.  You will need to decide how much power these systems will require yourself until some additional rules come out.

2) Once the ship is at the La grange point for entering hyperspace, pay the Hyperspace drive energy cost.  This is pretty minor and is only used to enter hyperspace.  You don't need to pay it every day in hyperspace.  While in hyperspace the ship will continue to consume its basic daily energy.  It is up to you to decide if this includes the shield costs or not.  I would probably keep them - I wouldn't want any funky hyperspace radiation or exotic xenomorph getting in my ship.

3) Once out of hyperspace use the same method as step one to get to wherever in the destination system they are going.


In my opinion:
For the most part energy cost tracking for these kinds of trips only matter for more detailed oriented players/gms, trading style campaigns where operating costs really matter, the party is cutting their energy budget very close, or there is something unusual going on.  The same with counting energy costs of combats.  Most of the time these costs are moderately minor compared to running a ship for a month long trip.  But in some games energy management could be the major challenge/opponent for the party.  "How can we get to Timbuktu-9 after the pirates forced us to use all our energy reserves plus some."

Hope this helps.  I'd have to get my books back out to say much more.

Regards,


-Pyrotech

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2016, 04:59:48 AM »
1: 50xmass ... huh... a bit high maybe... I guess life-support, shields, artificial gravity ... these things require energy. Hm... This would make the Angelica require: 50,000 energy units per day, travelling from Eris to Jupiter this means: 403249,4 energy units just cruising. Add in another 414000 accelerating and decelerating: more than 800k energy units per day

I understand not wanting to go with acceleration though, even if I think it makes some kind of sense...

So, what about an alternate multiplier constructed like this: passenger capacity + (shield rating/10) + 5 (for artificial gravity) x mass. Using the stats for Angelica, that would be: (8+1+5)x1000 = 14000 per day. So same journey as above would cost: 112909,83+414000 = 526909,83 ...

Although I think the mass x acceleration/100 is simpler. I mean, you refer to hyperspace under this point, so I guess going at these speeds counts as hyperspace in Tintamar? How I see this working in my game, to appease the hard sf dude, is slightly different. The gravitational forces of the solar system would affect the ship the moment the gravitic drive was turned off. By making it cost a fraction of the acceleration to maintain it, and perhaps adding 1, you could argue that you have covered the energy needs of gravity, speed, life-support and shield per day.

I assume the fusion generators don't have to produce at 10,000 per hour, but can be turned down to a trickle, thereby extending the duration of power production.

2: My second point is not about hyperspace/Lagrange travel. I'll keep this point in mind though, if it becomes relevant ... lowering shields in hyperspace :D what a great idea.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the energy tracking thing, but at least the start of this game is about tracking limited resources, making the decisions, all of which have undesirable outcomes. If resources are abundant, I won't require minute detailed book keeping. In this case... I think I will. At least I want it ready in case they ask for it . :)
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2016, 05:56:49 AM »
I've made a little spreadsheet to calculate energy and time for in-system travel. It's not done and I'm learning as I go.

You can't edit, but you can comment.
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 06:33:15 AM »
I've realised that I perhaps need to not base things off the table in Xtreme ... but rather go with the pure numbers...   :working:
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 02:50:31 PM »
So.

1) Starship sub-light travel summary: you expend energy = mass x acceleration to get to chosen speed. I can't find information on how much energy you expend to maintain speed, if any.

No. You may expend energy on life support etc., but constant velocity in space requires no energy.
Quote
2) Space combat: distance is in km - but to be frank, I don't get moving in space combat, closing distance, and so on. I get that acceleration has something to do with it, but there doesn't seem to be a clear or suggested way of keeping track of speed and distance in combat - or is it only acceleration we need to care about?
-I've found only one reference to distance and movement, and that is that the winner of the initiative decides how close enemies can get to his or her ship... does this then apply to all known enemies present? Or just one?

Winner chooses distance against one enemy. Trying to choose distance against multiples, you could require an All-or-Nothing Pilot maneuver with a -10 penalty per extra foe

Quote
3) I understand the supportive manoeuvres, but has anyone made a handy table summarising this?
-from reading the section it can also seem that EW and sensors needs to be rolled every round - but I gather from the example that EW is added to DB every round (as long as it has a dedicated operator?). And as long as it hasn't been disabled.

Rolled every round.

Quote
4) Also, do you expend any energy during combat?

Burn it at acceleration rates.

Quote
5) And can you use the table with these manoeuvres: "double back", "Quick turn" and "Stunt" from the top of table 1.1 in space combat? Or is space combat basically boiled down to: offensive, defensive or offensive/defensive flying?

Available for all Driving and Pilot skills.

Quote
-About offensive/defensive flying, this adds another -20, is this also (potentially) negated by the combat driving style?

Yes, if the pilot has bought enough Combat Piloting skill.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
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Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 06:19:20 PM »
1: Ok. I'll have to tweak that for my setting, but good to know :)

2: Ah, ok. Cool. 1) that pilot check would be instead of the flying defensively or offensively I assume. 2) The limitation on movement would be how far they can move in 2 seconds, right? I must admit I'm a bit stumped on the acceleration rate as a "unit" of movement. How much to you keep track of and... yeah. The example in Xtreme doesn't seem to cover enough - for someone like me - to get a super good grip of this.
-Also how does this affect chases ... you can just decide to leave, as long as you only have one opponent?

3: Ok. Cool.

4: Ok.

5: How would you use them in a combat or chase scenario?

6: Cool.
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2016, 09:57:57 AM »
Off to catch a plane.

2) "Spaceship combat is by mutual agteement with foes"

5) think Star Trek Wrath of Khan

Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2016, 10:30:51 AM »
Off to catch a plane.

2) "Spaceship combat is by mutual agteement with foes"

5) think Star Trek Wrath of Khan

Best wishes,
Nicholas

2) Sure, but if the winner of initiative decides distance... what's stopping you from ... I get it, we're getting into pursuits ... Cool.

5) I'll have to re-watch. :) About time anyway.
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 11:48:42 AM »
The aforementioned spreadsheet has been updated, it's somewhat cluttered, but it only contains information you may need - on the first sheet.

Pick speed, acceleration, pick or plot in travel distance and mass... it should then give you time, energy consumption - with and without house-rules. I'll highlight the total energy consumption for just acceleration and deceleration - as per RAW.

Journey calculator.
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Starship summary
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 04:00:19 PM »
It should now be possible to test it ...
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