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Offline pyrotech

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Botches for Research and Medical skills
« on: January 26, 2017, 11:39:14 PM »
Hey all,

I recently had a player try to create a new genetic modification (he was looking to increase another character's tough hide and in the setting this genetic mod isn't available on a medical database).  The character is around 14th level and very good at medical theory - so this isn't that hard of check, but the second check into the research a 01, followed by a 96 on the crit fumble table - only there isn't a fumble table for medical or research skills.

So going by all the other fumbles - that line of research resets to 0% and something else unpleasant happens.  Now I can come up with all sorts of specific fumbles for this check, but what should the general guideline be for these kind of botches?  Has anyone made their own fumble results for these kind of skills?

Regards,
-Pyrotech

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 02:30:47 AM »
Uhm. Wow. Hehe! Depending on you and your group's stance on the "play to lose" idea, you could rule that the character has developed a completely different effect - find or make some other talent. So, instead increased DB, perhaps increased BMR, initiative, low-g adaptation, something "similar" enough, but with a completely different effect.

On the question of fumbles: I've noticed that the fumble table is more a starting point and frame of reference to turn fumbles into something narratively appropriate - with some exceptions, like weapon fumbles. I find the closest fumble-category, and try to extrapolate and infer from there. I base the choice of fumble-category on two things: skill and context.
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2017, 01:08:53 PM »
Or the desired effect but with adverse side-effects

Or simply adverse side-effects (such as the tough hide value being reduced or perpetual skin peeling/rashes or garish pigmentation issues or penalties to maneuvering because hide is now too stiff).

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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 06:40:44 AM »
Worst case, the subject dies, but that is a little harsh, still the players have to be prepared for it. 

Alternatively, they become susceptible to a specific weapon type, No armour vs blasters, they have a field around their body that attracts bullets giving the enemy a +10 to hit when using slug throwing weapons.  Be creative.  But remember, this was a skill failure, so there should be absolutely zero benefit to the recipient. 

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 07:05:16 AM »
I disagree on the "zero benefit" statement above. It harkens back to old days of adversarial gaming, where the focus isn't really on having a fun time, but punishing players and outsmarting a sociopath-GM - great fun... :pirate: Although, I assume that's not what was intended with that statement. :)

Having played several games with more than one axis of skill resolution, a simple pass/fail system rarely does the action and character any justice, nor the game any favours. It's more interesting, exciting, gratifying and fun to provide something to the narrative, the game, the ongoings of plots and machinations, rather than just punish a player because of a bad roll. Don't get me wrong, a fumble is a fumble, but taking pleasure in thinking up the worst possible thing to happen ... takes a certain type of personality type. Usually a Fumble is also a failure - I guess it's automatically a failure - but you could rule that if the skill check would've been a success, if 01-05 wasn't fumble, then something cool could happen anyway. In addition to the fumble - if the context allows.

It's usually more fun that way, at least for the character in question - and less merciless laughter from fellow players gloating and having fun in your despair and lack of luck. :pirate:

That's me anyway.
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 07:41:45 AM »
I disagree on the "zero benefit" statement above. It harkens back to old days of adversarial gaming, where the focus isn't really on having a fun time, but punishing players and outsmarting a sociopath-GM - great fun... :pirate: Although, I assume that's not what was intended with that statement. :)

Having played several games with more than one axis of skill resolution, a simple pass/fail system rarely does the action and character any justice, nor the game any favours. It's more interesting, exciting, gratifying and fun to provide something to the narrative, the game, the ongoings of plots and machinations, rather than just punish a player because of a bad roll. Don't get me wrong, a fumble is a fumble, but taking pleasure in thinking up the worst possible thing to happen ... takes a certain type of personality type. Usually a Fumble is also a failure - I guess it's automatically a failure - but you could rule that if the skill check would've been a success, if 01-05 wasn't fumble, then something cool could happen anyway. In addition to the fumble - if the context allows.

It's usually more fun that way, at least for the character in question - and less merciless laughter from fellow players gloating and having fun in your despair and lack of luck. :pirate:

That's me anyway.

  Sorry, I am not an adversarial GM, but if you are allowing a player to alter the genetic make-up of a player to enhance their skin, or make them super-telepaths, or whatever, there have to be reasons not to do so.  Giving them a benefit for failure merely encourages them to continue to take these steps.  Given the balance of the various races allowing this merely makes characters supermen, they are generally the top of their races, after all they are adventurers.  Why not just make everyone select their race as Transhuman X with genetically modified skin giving them a base AC equal to powered armour and a -50 DB?  If such a thing was an easy option with no negative effects would not the Alterant Replicant or Transhuman races already have done this?

  I have been a GM for Many Many years.  I encourage players to do whatever strikes their fancy, I have GM'd many differing systems, from D&D, Rolemaster, Spacemaster, to Paranoia.  Of course, if they fail in an attempt, they suffer the consequences.  Besides if they are really into roleplaying a few negative effects can make the character even more interesting.  Garlbox the Great fears nothing, well nothing except lead bullets, lead bullets make me break out in ugly red lumps, no, not hives, bullet holes.

  Any role below 5 should be considered a failure and be susceptible to a failure result.  In this case they rolled a -95, that is a spectacular failure and should gain another negative die roll because it is a 96+ roll.  The real potential roll is probably something in the neighbourhood of -125

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 08:52:07 AM »
Well, if the game is about super-telepaths, aliens and technology for genetic adaptation and changes is present, perhaps even widespread, then I see no reason to punish players unnecessarily for a failure, or fumble. Sure, there should be consequences, but consequences doesn't need to be solely bad: it-now-sucks-to-be-your-character-because-random-roll-botched-u-sukk... that quickly becomes adversarial in its most basic form, as any roll becomes a challenge between doing what you want, or suffer the GMs wrath for failure. I know some groups work that way, and some may even prefer it that way. To me that's board-gaming, roll-gaming, keeping it balanced for the sake of balance, realism for its own sake, rather than - what I believe - roleplaying games are about: role playing. Joint storytelling. A collaborative, social, narrative effort for mutual benefit and enjoyment. A collaborative story told in a shared imaginary space.  :flower:

Of course, as you point out, why won't everyone just go for the bestest, most powerfullest super-species-profession-combo ... but that's not what its about, in the same way as its not about punishing players for trying to do something. It's about playing a game, enjoying a game, and allowing for a plot and character driven narrative to flourish and be better because of all the players present. While shooting up monsters and evil NPCs as you go along.

Yeah, "play to lose" is an important skill for players to have, and GMs. Bad stuff happens to your character, no one is saying that it shouldn't - but as already stated, bad stuff doesn't have to be cruel punishment, or only bad and negative, why not a surprise-effect? Why not a positive twist? Sure your skin keeps being shed, but this actually accelerates healing ... so the tough hide gene mod failed, remove any DB from any such talents the character already possessed, but grant the player accelerated healing - or minor or major regen if you're a ridiculously nice GM. Additionally you could add a permanent penalty on influence skill checks - and bonuses for people making forensic and/or tracking checks "against" the player.  :hm:

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Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 09:06:10 AM »
I take exception to the idea of taking the consequences of a bad roll as "punishing a player". You want good with bad, I get that. There are systems that do that, and it's always more bad than good. For example, you lose an eye, but the scar it leaves gives you a roguish look that attracts some members of the gender you prefer.

As a GM I see my role as to provide hooks and challenges for my players. If they can't overcome a challenge, they deal with the consequences. While ultimately, I would like the players to reach my idea of an end goal, if the dice go against them I let them fall where they may. This is why I roll in the open, except for things that are always supposed to be secret. I do advise players to make use of their Fate Points.
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 09:40:45 AM »
Well, if the game is about super-telepaths, aliens and technology for genetic adaptation and changes is present, perhaps even widespread, then I see no reason to punish players unnecessarily for a failure, or fumble. Sure, there should be consequences, but consequences doesn't need to be solely bad: it-now-sucks-to-be-your-character-because-random-roll-botched-u-sukk... that quickly becomes adversarial in its most basic form, as any roll becomes a challenge between doing what you want, or suffer the GMs wrath for failure. I know some groups work that way, and some may even prefer it that way. To me that's board-gaming, roll-gaming, keeping it balanced for the sake of balance, realism for its own sake, rather than - what I believe - roleplaying games are about: role playing. Joint storytelling. A collaborative, social, narrative effort for mutual benefit and enjoyment. A collaborative story told in a shared imaginary space.  :flower:

Of course, as you point out, why won't everyone just go for the bestest, most powerfullest super-species-profession-combo ... but that's not what its about, in the same way as its not about punishing players for trying to do something. It's about playing a game, enjoying a game, and allowing for a plot and character driven narrative to flourish and be better because of all the players present. While shooting up monsters and evil NPCs as you go along.

Yeah, "play to lose" is an important skill for players to have, and GMs. Bad stuff happens to your character, no one is saying that it shouldn't - but as already stated, bad stuff doesn't have to be cruel punishment, or only bad and negative, why not a surprise-effect? Why not a positive twist? Sure your skin keeps being shed, but this actually accelerates healing ... so the tough hide gene mod failed, remove any DB from any such talents the character already possessed, but grant the player accelerated healing - or minor or major regen if you're a ridiculously nice GM. Additionally you could add a permanent penalty on influence skill checks - and bonuses for people making forensic and/or tracking checks "against" the player.  :hm:

Wow, I love the whole I am an adversarial GM thought that comes with my saying "Play the dice as they lie, but do not give a bonus for failure".  "Why not a Positive Twist?" simple, it is not a positive result, it is a failure, suffer the consequences.  I did not force you to play with your genes, I did not say try this or die, you chose to do it, you reap the rewards or suffer the result of the failure.  I do not punish anyone, and if the players feel railroaded they will stop playing, I will not be the GM.  NEVER make it punishment, in fact be sure to make players aware there may be consequences BEFORE they roll or decide to take the chance.  If I were the GM you seem to feel I am, or hint I am I would not have been the main GM for this unruly crowd for the last 30 years.

  The players must foremost understand it is not Me vs Them, it is Them vs the World, and life is not all rainbows and bubblegum, there are possibly catastrophic results to their actions.  You want to unleash that kettle of magically enhanced plague bearing rats on the town?  OK, you do understand that your town is only a days ride away and those fleeing the plague may come to your town?  OK, done. Oh you want to drop that anti-matter bomb on the starport?  OK, you understand that the orbital station will make note of your registration number and report you to the galactic authorities?  OK, done.  Oh, you want to delve into the genes of that player and manipulate their genes creating a potential superman?  Oh you understand that if you fail they may develop an unstable mutation that may result in you needing to supply them with a regular dose of Regenex III each day or their skill will slough off?  Perhaps they instead will get a roll on the Allergy Table?  Or perhaps they get a roll on the Genetic Disease Table?  Maybe the Mental Addiction Table?  The Mental Problem Table?  You get the idea.  Cause and Effect, for each action there is a potential reaction.  There is no free ride, everybody pays, gas, grass or A**.

  As a GM do not be vindictive, also do not be their best pal ever.  Yes it is a game, and yes it has to be fun, but there are consequences occasionally.  In one game I had Tourettes inflicted on a character that I had cultivated as the penultimate diplomat.  I could have thrown my hands in the air and cursed everyone and the game for this, instead I adopted it into his style.  Sure there were situations where this cost me, but there were others where this helped me.  I took a chance, accepted the consequences and played on having a great time with the added roleplay level.  Nobody is the perfect superman, not even Superman.  Take the defect and run with it, Embrace it into the character and roleplay that.

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 12:15:53 PM »
I take exception to the idea of taking the consequences of a bad roll as "punishing a player". You want good with bad, I get that. There are systems that do that, and it's always more bad than good. For example, you lose an eye, but the scar it leaves gives you a roguish look that attracts some members of the gender you prefer.

As a GM I see my role as to provide hooks and challenges for my players. If they can't overcome a challenge, they deal with the consequences. While ultimately, I would like the players to reach my idea of an end goal, if the dice go against them I let them fall where they may. This is why I roll in the open, except for things that are always supposed to be secret. I do advise players to make use of their Fate Points.
The idea is not that a bad roll is punishing the player, the idea is that you can be creative and generative in failure that also leads to cool stuff - I guess I'm borrowing this idea of failure with advantages or triumph from FFGs Star Wars RPG. Not saying it should be like that all the time. I simply disagree with failure = zero good stuff.

As for your second paragraph, yeah, generally I agree. I used to GM more like that, but have ended up changing it a bit. Not much, but a tad bit. I also my role as the GM as a facilitator of fun and enjoyment, that is to allow my players to follow their own path, to have agency both in plot, narrative, as well as in rolling and roleplaying. Which isn't that much different I guess.

Wow, I love the whole I am an adversarial GM thought that comes with my saying "Play the dice as they lie, but do not give a bonus for failure".  "Why not a Positive Twist?" simple, it is not a positive result, it is a failure, suffer the consequences.  I did not force you to play with your genes, I did not say try this or die, you chose to do it, you reap the rewards or suffer the result of the failure.  I do not punish anyone, and if the players feel railroaded they will stop playing, I will not be the GM.  NEVER make it punishment, in fact be sure to make players aware there may be consequences BEFORE they roll or decide to take the chance.  If I were the GM you seem to feel I am, or hint I am I would not have been the main GM for this unruly crowd for the last 30 years.

  The players must foremost understand it is not Me vs Them, it is Them vs the World, and life is not all rainbows and bubblegum, there are possibly catastrophic results to their actions.  You want to unleash that kettle of magically enhanced plague bearing rats on the town?  OK, you do understand that your town is only a days ride away and those fleeing the plague may come to your town?  OK, done. Oh you want to drop that anti-matter bomb on the starport?  OK, you understand that the orbital station will make note of your registration number and report you to the galactic authorities?  OK, done.  Oh, you want to delve into the genes of that player and manipulate their genes creating a potential superman?  Oh you understand that if you fail they may develop an unstable mutation that may result in you needing to supply them with a regular dose of Regenex III each day or their skill will slough off?  Perhaps they instead will get a roll on the Allergy Table?  Or perhaps they get a roll on the Genetic Disease Table?  Maybe the Mental Addiction Table?  The Mental Problem Table?  You get the idea.  Cause and Effect, for each action there is a potential reaction.  There is no free ride, everybody pays, gas, grass or A**.

  As a GM do not be vindictive, also do not be their best pal ever.  Yes it is a game, and yes it has to be fun, but there are consequences occasionally.  In one game I had Tourettes inflicted on a character that I had cultivated as the penultimate diplomat.  I could have thrown my hands in the air and cursed everyone and the game for this, instead I adopted it into his style.  Sure there were situations where this cost me, but there were others where this helped me.  I took a chance, accepted the consequences and played on having a great time with the added roleplay level.  Nobody is the perfect superman, not even Superman.  Take the defect and run with it, Embrace it into the character and roleplay that.
I haven't accused you of that now have I? I'm sorry you've felt the need to interpret it that way. I guess I can understand that it could seen as an implication of my statement, but that was not my intention. I'm sorry about that.

As for Me v Them or Them v World ... aren't we as GMs the World? We represent and act out the world around them, all the NPCs, the weather, the light, the dark, the slippery floor ... Again, I feel I must be very explicit here, I'm not saying its the same nor that you are an adversarial GM.

Also, consequences of intended, and potentially dumb actions (like releasing magically enhanced plague bearing rats on a town) is different to a random number on a set of dice. At least that seems obvious to me. This, and most of your examples, is different from a setting where gene therapies and gene modification may (or may not - I'm not sure of the OPs setting) is prevalent, perhaps even normal. The technology and techniques may be highly developed and rather safe - which arguably isn't the case in his player's fumble as it was created by the player, but the technology and science allows for it, is present and is something that isn't, I would think, comparable to antimatter bombs or magical plague-rats. In the OPs example ... you're right though, in some games those are equivalents, but it doesn't seem to me like the OPs setting is like that, nor exactly as I see it. His setting seems to be in between.

My argument is that there's a difference between intended dumb actions wherein the dice have no or little say for the consequences, i.e. antimatter bomb and plague-rats, the consequences are crap and bad regardless. In some cases, like a late-modern setting, you could say the same about trying to create a mutant x-men with steel skin. In a scifi setting, where gene modification is prevalent and perhaps even considered quite normal, I wouldn't say its the same. In those two different settings I would rule it differently, because the game, the setting and the expectations are different. Sure you take defects and drawbacks in stride and include it in the character, but the severity of those defects and drawbacks would differ vastly from a late-modern setting wherein the risks are extreme, compared to a scifi setting wherein the risks are most likely known and can be handled (perhaps already is.)

The positions we inhabit are not vastly different, from my perspective. There just seems to be some nuances I have issues getting across.
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 01:07:43 PM »
Again, this is the fundamental issue, the roll was a FAILURE, in fact it was a Catastrophic FAILURE, they not only rolled a 1, they followed that up with an OPEN Ended Roll, thus it should be rerolled and that amount also subtracted from the initial roll.  Those are the system rules.  How can such a failure result in anything positive.  Sure as GM you may not want to kill the character, but a failure is not a good result, there is no benefit to be gained from failure other than an opportunity for roleplay.  "Dammit that is not what I wanted, now what am I going to do?"  Roleplay it out.

As a GM ALWAYS be neutral, never pick your world over the players desires.  In fact often I select the Players wills over the world for the sake of fun.  Still, when you fail, you fail.  The rats were to be released by an evil character, so please not dumb, intentionally evil.  Now, how about we discuss something that has been in use for years now.  As an example, first aid, we know how it works, there are books for people at home to use.  I have taken Emergency First Aid, plus several other First Aid Courses, then I go to medical school and become a GP.  Tomorrow I see someone at the office who has been hurt, they are very badly cut.  I administer "First Aid" I totally blow my roll, They get sick, probably an infection, maybe even gangrene.  Why does this happen?  Because as a Doctor I FAILED.  They do not gain the ability to self-heal minor cuts, they get sick because of my failure.  That is how it works.  Sure it is not fun for the guy who gets the gangrene, but that is the chance they take.  Perhaps as GM you want to give them a chance to make this a success.  Give them a quest or mission to find a solution to the problem they created.  If they succeed then perhaps you can give them a benefit or success for the failure.  They find a rare element that they missed in the formula so the gene alteration worked.  Don't make failure a success.




Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2017, 04:03:40 PM »
Fumbles are not open-ended in HARP SF good sir. Page 129, right hand column, second paragraph under Fumbles. Read it again.

So while I understand your logic it is not RAW, nor do I agree with your adamant on failure being something bad and only bad. This may be because I've played games with more than a simplistic pass/fail resolution method like this game uses (it has more than all-or-nothing sure, I know), so I'm bringing that, arguably more complex and interesting idea, with me into this system. Which means I rarely use the all-or-nothing malarkey. I still use it, but I use the Percentage and RR columns a lot more than the all-or-nothing resolution. This can require a lot of hand-wavium and GM fiat, which a lot of players (and other GMs) are no fan of, but so far so good with my group. It keeps it interesting, for us.

So it is based on that my suggestion of something more interesting and fun, in my opinion, than a heinous mutating fumble.

I get where you're coming from, I understand you completely, but I disagree in the case of this discussion. It's more complex. I'm not sure you understand me however.  :(
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2017, 04:25:08 PM »
First, HARP, right.  My bad.

Second, I understand, I disagree, but I understand, it is a failure.  Do you agree that a failed skill check is a failure?   I get you saying you wanted x but got y.  That is a partial success, not a failure.  That is the fundamental issue here.  I myself have another stat for players, it is called luck.  You screw the pooch on a roll?  Burn some luck baby and try to get a partial success, but there are no gifts.

It was not a partial success, it was not a close failure, it was a horribly terribly wrong failure.  A 1 is never a oooo close but not quite, sorry try again. 

I get not ruining the character a player has worked on for potentially years.  So, make it a failure that they need to fix.  Allow them to fix it, but do not reward what is clearly a failure.

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 02:03:17 AM »
I agree that a failed skill check is a failure, but can you agree that failure has more than one dimension? It's more than one simple value on a variable? Can you agree that failure can lead to something better? A very fact of life...

You understand a simplified version of what I'm saying, but the understanding is adhering strictly to the simplistic uncreative action resolution mechanic of this game (and games like this, like D&D, Pathfinder, and other simple one-axis pass/fail systems.) Down to the terminology. I'm not talking about a "partial success" - that notion is also a simplistic suggestion to a much more interesting complex of possibilities this system in its core mechanic struggles (and fails) to emulate. That is the failure that turns into something positive, something else sure, but also unexpectedly positive. For instance, I missed my called shot or my aimed burst at the enemy soldier, but due to that my bullets hit the pipes in the background covering the entire area in thick fog. Failure, but something positive (limited sight, penalties on attacks) - not great bonuses (unless you have fog-vision), but penalties all around. Or you hit the fuse box and all the power goes, no light. Good thing you have nigh-vision goggles... an opportunity to get away, or show off your blind-fighting skill. Unintended changing of the battle ground through failure.

So, what I'm not saying is I want X, but got Y ... If sticking to such simplistic terminology, what I'm talking about is closer to: I want X, I produced Y, so I get Z. Where Z can be anything from a normal simplistic uncreative failure, mild to severe fumble (the Y in your post,) and more interesting results that is not tied to a simplistic uncreative binary understanding of action resolution, not covered by your one-dimensional version of the idea of "failure" of an action. I guess you Luck stat is a somewhat limited approximation of what I'm talking about.

So, in sum: I'm not talking about "partial success" - although I try to make use of that when necessary. I'm not talking about "oooo close but not quite." I'm not talking about one-dimensional understanding of failure. Arguably I'm talking about something more realistic, the fact that the failure of a task is rarely only down to the skills of the individual, but also a multitude of other internal and external factors over which the individual has no control, and perhaps no knowledge or awareness. Something FFGs Star Wars RPG system emulates in an elegant, if at times annoying, manner.

This has lead me to improvise cascading results (CRR) for a lot of actions and skill checks, which is another approximation this system offers to cover encounters that are not simply pass/fail - or where such resolution is boring, uncreative, and not so constructive for the game, plot or ongoing narrative - that's not to say simple pass/fail can't be useful and constructive, it sometimes is very useful and constructive. Generally though CRRs are better, the scanner and sensor table in HARP SF also offers some options on target numbers to provide a graded or incremental result based on the level of success. In some stuff I'm currently working on I'm introducing a combination, that is target numbers with results under 101 on normal all-or-nothing checks, but where this results in penalties on follow-up skill checks. So, CSR? Cascading Skill Resolution ? :pirate:
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 06:17:33 AM »
We simply can't agree, you want a failure to be a positive effect, in life a failure is a failure.  Yes, this is a game, but if there are no consequences, if there is no down side to your action you may as well be Monty Hall.

I refuse to reward failure, you feel the need to never portray failure.  Different style, different thought process.

Also your simplistic thoughts on failure are incorrect, but again, you and I will never agree.  Failure can be very creative, as I have tried to show, but again, you do not believe in failure.  By-The-Way, you failed your persuade roll.  :-)

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 06:58:38 AM »
You misunderstand, or you don't want to understand. Fair enough. :)

Yeah, we won't agree. Not when you put words and meaning not present in my writing into what you wrongly believe is what I want, or do. Of course I portray failure, but I'm not dogmatic and simple about it, I'm creative about it. What you've shown are gaming 101 examples, not incorrect, but simplistic, boring and normal. I'm arguing to move beyond the narrow-minded binary pass/fail philosophy that you seem incapable of shedding, that you're dogmatically stuck in.

My thoughts on failure are not simplistic, nor incorrect, they're just fairly average, you just don't to grasp them. Which is fine. Try some games with a different philosophy on action resolution than games like this and the ones you mentioned above - all more or less identical games, with simple resolution methods. Challenge yourself and your ideas of success and failure - look away now, this may blow you mind: success is not always a one-sided positive affair?!?!?!?!!? WTF? dafuq? How can I say that? Must be something crazy? Drugs in my coffee?!

I cannot succeed on my persuasion when the listener doesn't comprehend. ;) :pirate:
Edit: Which is ultimately my responsibility, as long as we communicate using the same language. So, the failure is double mine. The positive side of this failure? I've learned more about how to not explain and describe what I think. Next time I meet someone who finds this idea alien and confusing, I will use different words and examples. If there is a next time. I've never had to discuss this before, most people understand straight away, despite my lousy explanation and descriptions. ;) So, there is a positive side-effect of this failed persuasion check - it's more like public speaking though, I'm not trying to convince you, but create understanding. Which I failed at. So, I learn from this. I've hopefully made a new sparring-partner that won't hate me, succeeded in not creating an online enemy. Lots of failure with advantages here. It seems like. :)
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 07:06:18 AM »
You are beginning to offend me, if I disagree I am incapable of understanding.  If I don't agree I am simplistic. 

I disagree, I do not feel failure is a success in any way.  End of Discussion.

I have played more RPG's and systems than the years you have been alive.  If I disagree it is because I disagree.

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2017, 07:07:58 AM »
I've never written that failure is success in any way.
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2017, 07:10:53 AM »
1) You are beginning to offend me, if I disagree I am incapable of understanding.  If I don't agree I am simplistic. 

2) I have played more RPG's and systems than the years you have been alive.
1)  I'm sorry, but you put words and meaning into what I write that isn't present, quite offensive in itself. I only reply in kind.

2) And this relevant in what way?
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Botches for Research and Medical skills
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2017, 08:14:50 AM »
Try some games with a different philosophy on action resolution than games like this and the ones you mentioned above - all more or less identical games, with simple resolution methods. 

I was not going to respond, this is going nowhere, you do not accept my stand, and constantly repeat that I am simple, that my methods are simple.  You have no idea what I do, or how I GM, but you must regard me as simple.  Fine, Done with this, it is wasting time.  Yet see above for point 2.  again "Try some games with a different philosophy on action resolution than games like this and the ones you mentioned above" Name a few, I will bet you I have played most of them.  I have tried more than 70 RPG's in my 37 years as a GM and as a player.  I have GM'd most of those years.  I have read rule systems that I have no intention of ever playing just to poach some rule ideas and points.  I am far from NARROW-MINDED, a term you use often. 

You state that I do not understand that failure is more than a simple pass fail, I offered some options that I felt were very reasonable.  These were ignored.  You state "I Do not grasp your ideas"  No I DISAGREE with your ideas, not fail to grasp.  YOU Keep referring to your ideas not being simplistic, I never said they were.  Again, I say I DISAGREE, You want failure to have a reward, Why?  THAT is the question, why reward failure?  You say "Challenge yourself and your ideas of success and failure - look away now, this may blow you mind: success is not always a one-sided positive affair?!?!?!?!!? WTF? dafuq? How can I say that? Must be something crazy? Drugs in my coffee?!"  How offensive is that?  Seriously.  Who said success or failure are one sided?  Oh that is right, YOU did.  Again, why do you insist I am punishing the players? I am not rewarding them.  Wait, I know you didn't say that, but you did. 

"Well, if the game is about super-telepaths, aliens and technology for genetic adaptation and changes is present, perhaps even widespread, then I see no reason to punish players unnecessarily for a failure, or fumble. Sure, there should be consequences, but consequences doesn't need to be solely bad: it-now-sucks-to-be-your-character-because-random-roll-botched-u-sukk... that quickly becomes adversarial in its most basic form, as any roll becomes a challenge between doing what you want, or suffer the GMs wrath for failure. I know some groups work that way, and some may even prefer it that way. To me that's board-gaming, roll-gaming, keeping it balanced for the sake of balance, realism for its own sake, rather than - what I believe - roleplaying games are about: role playing. Joint storytelling. A collaborative, social, narrative effort for mutual benefit and enjoyment. A collaborative story told in a shared imaginary space. "

  I have stated repeatedly, do not be a GM that is GM vs Players, that is dumb, I have played as a player with some of those, guess what, they are no longer the GM.    Now, Consequences - a result or effect of an action or condition. e.g. The accident was the consequence of reckless driving.  This was not my definition, nor my example.  Doesn't sound like consequences equals reward.  Reward - a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement. e.g. "the engineer who supervised the work was rewarded with a bonus".  Again not me, maybe this will work.  Achievement - something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed.  Hmmmm, I know - Failure - lack of success. Wait - Success - the accomplishment of an aim or purpose.

  Well... There is something to think about, Failure is lack of achieving or accomplishing an aim or purpose.  So maybe my earlier suggestions that were ignored would be an idea.

"Give them a quest or mission to find a solution to the problem they created.  If they succeed then perhaps you can give them a benefit or success for the failure.  They find a rare element that they missed in the formula so the gene alteration worked."  Use the FAILURE as a tool for more adventures, maybe even something you or the players never thought of.

Now, I think this has been flogged quite a bit, and I am sure I stepped over a line here and may have offended you with my simplistic thoughts, I am not trying to offend.  Just be clear.

 

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