Topic: Combat - Feedback

[Mungo]

Hi,

Here my comments regarding Combat (but not vehicle combat):

- Combat skills: here I propose some changes based on the following arguments:
    - in my experience it is 100 times easier to learn how to shoot than to use Martial Arts or
      an archaic weapon. Therefore a DP spent on modern weapons should have more impact
      than a DP spent on an archaic weapon
    - future energy weapons will be most likely designed to have the same look and feel as
      firearms. So the only difference will be recoil, impact of gravity and atmosphere and
      different velocity of "bullet"
    - Gunnery is for weapon systems (although the description says its for mortars and the
       like as well). But there are weapons like barrel-mounted grenade launchers (which BTW
       I miss completely here), small mortars, shoulder launched missiles and mounted
       machine guns (and their energy equivalent) which in my opinion are personal weapons
       who do not require the use of the gunnery skill.
    - Mounted Machine Guns are not 2-H weapons in my experience (they behave very
      different to an Assault Rifle...)
   
    My proposal therefore:
    - I suggest only the following 4 categories for future weapons: Thrown: Grenades, 1-H
       Modern, 2-H Modern, Modern Support Weapons (MSW). The groups would be Flamer,
       Laser, Firearm, Blaster and for MSW additionally Mortar, Grenade Launcher, Missile
       Launchers,...
    - The HARP rule for untrained 1-H Edged and 1-H Concussion groups applies for all four
       of these 4 modern categories
- +40 OB when foe is downed: in my opinion with modern weapons a downed foe is actually harder to hit...
- Armor: there is a lot doubled from the equipment chapter. I suggest to have it only once.
- Charging: max OB/DB is +-60, in HARP it is +-50 -> I would align it with HARP
- Escape Blast: There is no difference whether the character has already had an action or not this round. I think this action is similar to Sudden Dodge, and there the character looses his action in the next round if he has already acted this round -> I would align these 2 actions.
- I suggest to seperate the actions for melee and modern ranged attacks, now they are mixed together.
- In modern warfare you do a lot of movement while crouching/robbing (is this the English term?) -> I suggest to include ruling on the change of BMR when doing this.
- Blast radii are very digital. I suggest RIs also for mines/grenades, as otherwise I throw a grenade with a blast radius of 25m at a foe who is 26m away and keep standing - and this is not healthy in reality.
- Grenades that are not properly timed can be thrown back -> I would like to see a ruling on that
- I suggest to change the headline "missile use in melee", as the paragraphs below also deals with modern weapons.
- The description "firing into melee" only mentions archaic missile weapons -> I would include modern weapons as well.
- Some actions ignore the damage cap. This is only mentioned in "Damage Cap" but not in the descriptions of the respective actions -> I suggest to include this also in the descriptions of the actions (Aimed Burst,...).
- Stunned: I would exchange the two paragraphs - stating at first how to become stunned and then what happens when you are stunned.

- What I forgot in the "Adventuring Chapter":
    - p128: "protects against both wave and particle radiation..". Radiation is always both wave and particle (Wave-particle dualism).
    - p128: CR150 for "area that received a nuclear blast": that's only true shortly after the blast. Nuclear weapons are normally designed in a way that radiation levels drop fast.
    - In addition I suggest an overview tables for the Decompression, Vacuum , Low/High Pressure rules (CRRs).

BR
Juergen

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Hi,

Here my comments regarding Combat (but not vehicle combat):

- Combat skills: here I propose some changes based on the following arguments:
    - in my experience it is 100 times easier to learn how to shoot than to use Martial Arts or
      an archaic weapon. Therefore a DP spent on modern weapons should have more impact
      than a DP spent on an archaic weapon
    - future energy weapons will be most likely designed to have the same look and feel as
      firearms. So the only difference will be recoil, impact of gravity and atmosphere and
      different velocity of "bullet"
    - Gunnery is for weapon systems (although the description says its for mortars and the
       like as well). But there are weapons like barrel-mounted grenade launchers (which BTW
       I miss completely here), small mortars, shoulder launched missiles and mounted
       machine guns (and their energy equivalent) which in my opinion are personal weapons
       who do not require the use of the gunnery skill.
    - Mounted Machine Guns are not 2-H weapons in my experience (they behave very
      different to an Assault Rifle...)
   
    My proposal therefore:
    - I suggest only the following 4 categories for future weapons: Thrown: Grenades, 1-H
       Modern, 2-H Modern, Modern Support Weapons (MSW). The groups would be Flamer,
       Laser, Firearm, Blaster and for MSW additionally Mortar, Grenade Launcher, Missile
       Launchers,...
    - The HARP rule for untrained 1-H Edged and 1-H Concussion groups applies for all four
       of these 4 modern categories

I am rather wary of handing out OBs of 25 plus stats and modifiers in half the modern weapons to anyone and everyone who has ever trained in a single modern weapon.

Modern Support Weapons can go on the wish list.

- +40 OB when foe is downed: in my opinion with modern weapons a downed foe is actually harder to hit...

That might work better as a melee-only modifier.

- Charging: max OB/DB is +-60, in HARP it is +-50 -> I would align it with HARP

This is a metric versus Imperial issue. HARP Fantasy gives +1 per every foot up to 50'. 50' does not convert into an even number of meters.

- Escape Blast: There is no difference whether the character has already had an action or not this round. I think this action is similar to Sudden Dodge, and there the character looses his action in the next round if he has already acted this round -> I would align these 2 actions.

It's probably closer to Sudden Dive, actually.

- I suggest to seperate the actions for melee and modern ranged attacks, now they are mixed together.

There are some that are relevant to both, however.

- In modern warfare you do a lot of movement while crouching/robbing (is this the English term?) -> I suggest to include ruling on the change of BMR when doing this.

A useful suggestion

- Blast radii are very digital. I suggest RIs also for mines/grenades, as otherwise I throw a grenade with a blast radius of 25m at a foe who is 26m away and keep standing - and this is not healthy in reality.
- Grenades that are not properly timed can be thrown back -> I would like to see a ruling on that

I was trying to keep things simple. I'll consider how a secondary (and only secondary) blast radius might work.

- I suggest to change the headline "missile use in melee", as the paragraphs below also deals with modern weapons.

Sensible enough.

- The description "firing into melee" only mentions archaic missile weapons -> I would include modern weapons as well.

It does, though.

- Some actions ignore the damage cap. This is only mentioned in "Damage Cap" but not in the descriptions of the respective actions -> I suggest to include this also in the descriptions of the actions (Aimed Burst,...).

That would be helpful.

- What I forgot in the "Adventuring Chapter":
    - p128: "protects against both wave and particle radiation..". Radiation is always both wave and particle (Wave-particle dualism).
    - p128: CR150 for "area that received a nuclear blast": that's only true shortly after the blast. Nuclear weapons are normally designed in a way that radiation levels drop fast.
    - In addition I suggest an overview tables for the Decompression, Vacuum , Low/High Pressure rules (CRRs).

It would be more helpful to put these comments in your thread on the Adventuring chapter as then they are less likely to get lost.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Charge - I think it would work better at +5 per meter charged. It does not covert well with the +1 per foot, but it does work out well when using a game map with hexes or squares, especially if they are equal to 1 meter per hex. But I do agree with making the max be +50.

[Mungo]

I am rather wary of handing out OBs of 25 plus stats and modifiers in half the modern weapons to anyone and everyone who has ever trained in a single modern weapon.

To clarify:
I meant within a Weapon skill, i.e. among its groups. To bring an example: relaoding and pulling the trigger of a contemporary pistol will be very similiar to a laser pistol. Therefore you can reuse some of your skill. But you do not get any benefits for 2-H weapons, i.e. there you would be at -25 + stats, even if you know a lot about 1-H.

BR
Juergen

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

i.e. handheld (pistol-type) weapons versus shoulder fired (rifle-type) weapons, correct?

[Mungo]

Yes. And vs. support weapons (mounted / missiles / indirect fire).

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

So basically:

Weapon Class: 1-H "Modern Ranged"
 - Weapon Group: Flamers : flame pistol
 - Weapon Group: Lasers: laser pistol, minilaser
 - Weapon Group: Stunners: electrostunner, laser dazzler, sonic stunner
 - Weapon Group: Handguns: holdout gun, pistol, revolver
 - Weapon Group: Needlers: needle pistol

Weapon Class: 2-H "Modern Ranged"
 - Weapon Group: Flamers : flame rifle, flame repeater
 - Weapon Group: Lasers: hunting laser, laser rifle
 - Weapon Group: Stunners: electrorifle, sonic stunrifle
 - Weapon Group: Machineguns: machine gun, submachine gun
 - Weapon Group: Needlers: needle rifle
 - Weapon Group: assault rifle, hunting rifle
 - Weapon Group: autoshotgun, shotgun

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Mungo]

Hi,

Yes, exactly. Only the machine gun should go into "Support Weapons", as a it can not be used 2-H (at least not the MG-42 / MG-74 I have experience with, perhaps its different with a 5,56 mm caliber but this I don't know).

BR
Juergen

[Mungo]

Hi,

One more discrepancy that I noted between HARP and HARP SF: Stunned requires a RR(100) in HARP SF and a RR(150) in HARP -> I suggest to use the HARP ruling.

BR
Juergen

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Hi,

One more discrepancy that I noted between HARP and HARP SF: Stunned requires a RR(100) in HARP SF and a RR(150) in HARP -> I suggest to use the HARP ruling.

BR
Juergen

This is a deliberate difference. The 150 target is too high. It makes it too difficult to throw off stun. In fantasy, once stunned, a character is limited to half parry and maneuvers at -50. The ability to half parry  melee weapons is not terribly useful in a firefight.

Being stunned is also not fun for the player because their character is unable to participate fully for multiple rounds in combat.

This rule was first mooted in a TGC article by me. It later slipstreamed in as an option into Hack & Slash.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

 

[chk]

If you consider things like the M-16 and the H&K G36 as "assault rifles", then I would agree that "machine guns" can't be used two handed (except by Arnold who can use them one-handed in all the movies .

[Mungo]

If you consider things like the M-16 and the H&K G36 as "assault rifles", then I would agree that "machine guns" can't be used two handed (except by Arnold who can use them one-handed in all the movies .

There is a grey area, but for simplicity I would suggest that everything that has burst fire as the normal mode of operation (at least in Austria you are pushed to use single fire for all personal weapons like pistols, assault rifles,..) is a machine gun and not to be used 2-H. This is true for everything with 7,62 mm and above.

If this is too harsh, I suggest to have smaller machine guns covered by both 2-H (assault rifle) and Support weapon: machine gun.

BR
Juergen

[Michael Petrea]

An M-16 is an assault rifle.  It fires rifle ammunition and can operate in single or burst mode (for A2 models; A1 models could fire on full auto).  It is intended for use by a single person with a reasonably sustained rate of fire and to be used with two hands.  While you may be strong enough to hold it with only one hand and fire it as the recoil is not strong, I wouldn't plan on hitting anything.  It is not just a matter of having the strength to hold the weapon in one hand but to be able to aim and determine the trajectory from that position.

Submachineguns are generally categorized as weapons capable of burst or auto fire but fire pistol ammunition.  Also, usually the barrel isn't heavy enough to maintain a sustained  rate of fire (even if the firing mechanism can).  Once again while they could be used one-handed they're intended use is with 2 hands.

Machineguns are generally categorized as fully automatic, crew-served weapons firing rifle ammunition.  Obviously, their may be gyro-mounts in the game that would allow a machine gun to be fired accurately while mobile. However,  machine guns are designed to be mobile, but fired while stationary.  (this of course refers to infantry weapons and not mounted weapons.  mounted weapons is where I believe the gunnery skill comes in.)

[Mungo]

Machineguns are generally categorized as fully automatic, crew-served weapons firing rifle ammunition.  Obviously, their may be gyro-mounts in the game that would allow a machine gun to be fired accurately while mobile. However,  machine guns are designed to be mobile, but fired while stationary.  (this of course refers to infantry weapons and not mounted weapons.  mounted weapons is where I believe the gunnery skill comes in.)

I fully agree, except concerning the Gunnery skill. With mounted weapons I would distingiush between mounted but operated directly (e.g. the machine gun on top of a main battle tank) or operated indirectly via a targeting system (e.g. a coaxial machine gun in the main battle tank or as main weapon in a turret on a APV). The first category would in my opinion still need the Weapon Skill and only the second the Gunnery skill.

BR
Juergen

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

How is this Mungo?

Weapon Class: 1-H "Modern Ranged"
 - Weapon Group: Flamers : flame pistol
 - Weapon Group: Lasers: laser pistol, minilaser
 - Weapon Group: Stunners: electrostunner, laser dazzler, sonic stunner
 - Weapon Group: Handguns: holdout gun, pistol, revolver
 - Weapon Group: Needlers: needle pistol

Weapon Class: 2-H "Modern Ranged"
 - Weapon Group: Flamers : flame rifle, flame repeater
 - Weapon Group: Lasers: hunting laser, laser rifle
 - Weapon Group: Stunners: electrorifle, sonic stunrifle
 - Weapon Group: Machineguns: machine gun, submachine gun
 - Weapon Group: Crew Served Weapons: machine guns, Blaster Guns
 - Weapon Group: Needlers: needle rifle
 - Weapon Group: assault rifle, hunting rifle
 - Weapon Group: autoshotgun, shotgun

and then Gunnery skill for Indirect Fire Weapons (howitzers, cannon, plasma cannon, ship-board weaponry, missiles, etc.)

The new group is in green, and is a single group for ALL crew served assault weapons (i.e. the machine gun on top of a tank or PT boat, the third squad of assault gunners present in any Confederation Marine platoon from the Starfist series of books, etc..)


That make sense?

[Michael Petrea]

Basically, drawing the distinction between whether the character is directly, physically manipulating the weapon to aim and fire or using a control apparatus to aim and fire.  I agree with that. 

It just seems like there are more categories than there needs to be, but I don't have time right now to look at it more closely.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Some of the individual weapon groups can most likely be combined, but those two weapon categories are most likely accurate enough

[Michael Petrea]

Yea, I meant the groups not the class (categories).

[Mungo]

Hi Rasyr,

In principle it looks ok (I do not want to "split hairs"). The only issues left are:

- If you want to use the rule that you get the +25+OB+stats within a category, then the Crew Served Weapons are a little overpowered because then everybody can use them.And they generate a lot of damage over a great distance, but they are normally differently to load (belts) and differently to use (cerw). But in 99% of the cases in a game this will most likely not make any impact.
- There are small indirect fire weapions like barrel mounted grenade launchers and small mortars. What skill would you use? Gunnery? Or Thrown: grenade for the launcher and Gunnery for the mortar?
- Personal anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons (missiles, rocket-propelled guns): would this then also be Gunnery?

And when I look at it closely, I think you can at least merge the assault rifle / hunting gun group with the shotgun group. Just give the shotgun a very small RI but it attacks all targets within a 15 or 30? arc (don't know, have never used one). And have it use different criticals.

BR
Juergen

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Some of the individual weapon groups can most likely be combined,

No, because we then lose the cleanliness of mapping a specific critical to all the weapons in a weapon group, and we forfeit the variation in fumble ranges currently available (as all weapons in a single weapon group must have the same fumble range).

Best wishes,
Nicholas