Author Topic: Overall Concept - Feedback  (Read 3005 times)

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Offline Mungo

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Overall Concept - Feedback
« on: March 22, 2007, 05:55:48 AM »
Hi,

After having posted a lot of comments to individual chapters, I would also like to give feedback on the overall concept of the book and the impression it gave me.

Overall I am left with quite mixed feelings, which BTW changed a lot while reading the book (from "great" to "oh my god" and back and...). This is a result of two things: there are a lot of very good things, but at the same time I still see a number of mainly conceptual issues, which in my opinion should be resolved before publishing. To go into more detail:

Strengths / what I liked:
1) HARP SF is compatible with HARP and uses the same mechanics, which means that it builds on and expands a very good system.
2) Nicholas has done an outstanding job formulating rules for SF that keep the simplicity of HARP while at the same time doing justice to the complexity of the world out there. Be it Psionics, the Vehicle Combat System, Modern Combat, Cyberware,... the concepts are innovative, simple and compelling.
3) I consider the system of technology stages a stroke of genious (did you invent it or did it come from somewhere else). It is simple and it avoids the complexity and pitfalls of a tech level system. And it really helps the GM.
4) There are rules for a number of situations and conditions a player might encounter (gravity, pressure, ...), which really proves the amount of thought gone into the book and is much more than other books out there provide. So I consider this is really a very good differentiator to other SF core rule books.

Areas for improvement / what I disliked:
1) With two small exceptions (Stun, Charging) a great deal of effort was spent on maintaining 1:1 compatibility with HARP. A lot of the HARP rules are repeated, there are references to Magic, a lot of space is spent on combat with archaic weapons, a lot of related examples were taken over. This has three results for me:
    - A HARP newbie is confused. Why is Magic mentioned, but no rules exist?
    - A HARP veteran is bored. A great part of the book he already knows, but he can not skip it as in between there are details that are changed or added.
    - The complete book gives an unbalanced feeling. E.g. 90% of combat will most likely not include Melee, but large parts are dedicated to associated maneuvers, ... The same with skills, where you still find Heraldry and Beastmastery, .. Also physical traps, melee combat examples,...

In my opinion there are 2 possible changes, depending on the target audience and the correspondig product strategy:
    a) Make this product the SF add-on for HARP, as the target audience are HARP veterans -> then please remove everything that is unchanged from the HARP core rules.
    b) (my preferred option) Make this procut stand-alone and target a new audience -> please sacrifice the 1:1 compatibility with HARP. I.e. remove every reference to magic, cut down on archaic combat, cut down on archaic skills, cut down on corresponding examples - i.e. make this part simpler. Just either add statements for those who want to use both (e.g. "If you want more detail here, use this and that from HARP") or generate a free web enhancement which might e.g. include magic RR boni for the SF species and so on.

I think both options would also mean a price change - in case a) it goes down, but in case b) it can go up. This is due to my belief that in the future there will remain only two major RPG market segments: very high quality and high price (Serenity RPG, Ptolus) and high quality/very low price (Echoes of Heaven). And HARP SF is in my opinion in its current status and pricing in between.

2) There are still some gaps in terms of topics covered which are scheduled for a SysOp's Guide but must in my opinion be part of this product. One reason is that most of the GMs (>90%) will in my opinion not use the Tintamar setting (because they prefer another one and because Tintamar is currently not usable without extensive preparation by a GM). So HARP SF should include everything that a GM needs in order to use the rules in another setting. The second reason is that many GMs will not want to wait for a SysOp's guide, as this product might come significant later than the core book. And third I think GMs need more support for creating a campaign than the book currently gives.

In particular the topics that in my opinion should be added are:
    - Other (optional) rules for FTL travel than L-Drive and portals.
    - Blasters
    - Heavy Weapons (Support Weapons) - i.e. Heavy Flamer, Heavy Laser, Grenade Launcher,...
    - More detailed adventure plots (like in SM: Datanet).
    - A spaceship for players (smuggler type - fast, armed, ...)

3) I really had great difficulties with the way HARP SF is organized - both in terms of overall structure as well as chapter internal structures. To give an example: creating a character is at the beginning of the book, creating an electronic character is at the end. The reason is that electronic character generation is optional, which is stated in the SysOp chapter - which is again after the chapter for electronic character generation. Another example are the alphabetic equipment lists.

In my opinion a structure should be designed according the following guidelines:
    - If possible nowhere dependencies on information that is given later in the book.
    - Whereever possible state things only once to avoid contradictions and make house rules and errata easier.
    - Things that belong together should be stated together, groupings wherever possible (i.e. no alphabetical sorting).
    - Differentiation between information that is needed only during character generation / levelling up and information that is needed within a gaming session. The former should be more theme oriented (e.g. all talents together, all skills together, the latter should make a further distinction between "needed by player and GM" and "needed by GM only".

With this in mind I come up with the following proposal for an overall structure (still not perfect, but to me better than the current one):
    1) Introduction
    2) Tintamar (can also be later, just brought it here because it might be a good way to draw the reader in before the dry part of rules starts)
    3) Character generation chapters, incl. electronic character generation (even if its an option I think it should belong here). I.e. species, skills, talents,... & cyberware
    4) Maneuver resolution (short chapter, but a very important one..)
    5) Personal combat   
    6) Psionics
    7) Equipment & Technology
    8) Vehicles and vehicle combat
    9) SysOps Guide, incl. rules on special circumstances, campaign design, exp. points, adventure hooks.
    10) Appendix with all important tables (criticals for the first time, the rest repeated).

4) This is the least important point compared to the others, but there are some rulings I am currently not happy with:
    - Maneuverability Modifier for vehicles: please only to OB or only to DB in one given round
    - Poison Sac: please not depending on character level
    - Zero-G Maneuvering (Skill): please same ruling concept as Blindfighting or Aerial Combat.

As I said, my feelings are very mixed and also my impression of the importance of the points I mentioned varied a lot during the time spent reading the manuscript. Therefore I am really looking forward to a discussion regarding these issues to help putting these points in the right perspective.

BR
Juergen


« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 06:02:54 AM by Mungo »

Offline trechriron

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Re: Overall Concept - Feedback
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2007, 12:58:36 AM »
Strengths / what I liked:

Me Too. Ditto.  Spot on.  Exactly.

1) With two small exceptions (Stun, Charging) a great deal of effort was spent on maintaining 1:1 compatibility with HARP ...

I totally agree with this point.  It could really muck up the works folks.  Be laser focused and on the spot in this area.  Your current customers will love you.  Your new ones will be impressed.

b) (my preferred option) Make this product stand-alone and target a new audience -> please sacrifice the 1:1 compatibility with HARP; i.e. remove every reference to magic, cut down on archaic combat, cut down on archaic skills, cut down on corresponding examples - i.e. make this part simpler. Just either add statements for those who want to use both (e.g. "If you want more detail here, use this and that from HARP") or generate a free web enhancement which might ... include magic RR boni for the SF species and so on.  [minor corrections for spelling...]

I agree with this 1000%.  This is a VERY intelligent suggestion.  On the scale of anti-gravity being invented tomorrow by my 6-year old nephew impressive suggestion.  Ding! Ding!, this should win a prize.  Seriously.

There are still some gaps in terms of topics covered which are scheduled for a SysOp's Guide but must in my opinion be part of this product.  ...
In particular the topics that in my opinion should be added are:
    - Other (optional) rules for FTL travel than L-Drive and portals.
    - Blasters
    - Heavy Weapons (Support Weapons) - i.e. Heavy Flamer, Heavy Laser, Grenade Launcher,...
    - More detailed adventure plots (like in SM: Datanet).
    - A spaceship for players (smuggler type - fast, armed, ...)

As our friends at Guiness would say ...  "Brilliant!!"

I really had great difficulties with the way HARP SF is organized ...

1) Introduction
    2) Tintamar (can also be later, just brought it here because it might be a good way to draw the reader in before the dry part of rules starts)
    3) Character generation chapters, incl. electronic character generation (even if its an option I think it should belong here). I.e. species, skills, talents,... & cyberware
    4) Maneuver resolution (short chapter, but a very important one..)
    5) Personal combat   
    6) Psionics
    7) Equipment & Technology
     Vehicles and vehicle combat
    9) SysOps Guide, incl. rules on special circumstances, campaign design, exp. points, adventure hooks.
    10) Appendix with all important tables (criticals for the first time, the rest repeated).

Another good idea.  You might not agree exactly with Juergen's organization here, but reading the draft left me a tad scattered.  After reading it I thought to myself "my players are going to have a hard time navigating this".  I think you should take another look at how you are organizing the book; these are solid suggestions.

These break out posts are excellent Juergen.  I am tired but I will come back tomorrow and post some more responses and thoughts.  I am especially pleased on the topic of compatibility/repeating HARP in HARP SF as that was one of my concerns and you articulated it perfectly.

Ciao for now,
Trentin C Bergeron (TreChriron)
Bard, Dreamer, & RPG Enthusiast

Offline allenrmaher

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Re: Overall Concept - Feedback
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2007, 01:33:50 AM »
Well I have a much shorter list of things.  I have play tested over on RPGRM and been through the manuscript a few times now.  I am mostly happy with things.

I disagree with much of the last posters areas of improvement.  Possibly because I look at this product as an expansion of the HARP system and think that is a good thing.

Many (but not all) of the layout issues, and other things that Mungo brings up are consistent with the HARP system, and heck I like those parts.  I like the way the chapters fall into the same sensible order.  I like the way they leave in things I need to integrate it with HARP.   I like that they leave in some archaic weapon  skills.  What would SW be with out light sabres and the other melee combats to break up the gun  fights or ewoks and other primitives.  And I like that magic is left in... I'd rather only have to look in one spot for species info. (rather than a down loadable PDF)

I think that you can leave non Tintamar things like alternative FTL and other weapons for the Sys-op guide.  Really there is very little simpler than creating a weapon in HARP if you need one.

That being said I also agree with some of the points,  the weakest part of the rules for me was the space ship portion.  The formulae are too complicated for in game use and they turned me off.  I don't mind them as a sidebar, but I will probably use a much simpler means of determining distance travelled at the gaming table.  I'll use Astrosynthysis or Celestia or some other space simulator with current real world star maps for navigating before the game... but not at the gaming table.  The reason this is important is that my players are going to surprise me with where they go, so I won't have time to do many of the calcs out of game.

The space ship combat is better, I need to play test it more, with a few different scenerios, fighter vs fighter, fighter vs freighter, fighters vs capital ship.  I like the way the criticals work with space ship combat, the mechanical systems failure are nice.

The spacecraft that are there have a very generic utilitarian feel to them.  Artwork might help... model and make names would add flavour as would some descriptive text, I like the idea of product advertisement in the original SWD6 books... it wasn't just an x-wing, it was an Incom T-65 Space Superiority Fighter (the 'no job is over this little guy's head" add for R2 units is classic).  I did not get much of a sense of a Tintamar fleet... or of what the dreaded Silth fleet looks like.  Some nick names or other flavour text to punch up the ship compliment would help.

On the whole, I think that a little more texture could be added to Tintamar. It seems structurally sound, and is intriguing... it just needs texture.

The skills, well there are a lot of them.  I understand why, it is a genre thing and you need specialists.  I think the DP to skill ratio is being stretched here and may opt for a higher fixed DP per level.

Grad School, it's like slave labour, but without the job satisfaction or high social status.

Offline ob1knorrb

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Re: Overall Concept - Feedback
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2007, 12:51:49 PM »
I must confess that I haven't given the latest Beta version a complete read through yet, I have mostly worked with an earlier copy I got from Nicholas for running the Playtest over at RPGRM. but assuming things haven't changed to much, my opinion tends to mirror allenmaher's. 
I like having the overlap between HARP Sci Fi and HARP Fantasy, I don't think the occasional references to magic or especially archaic weapons hurt.  How often in Star Trek did the Captain and crew end up having to fight with swords or daggers?  I can think of several occasions just from Classic Trek without even straining.  I also like that the chapter organization mirrors that of HARP Fantasy, if that means that a few chapters seem to be further back in the book than might be expected, I'm okay with that.  That way if I want to print off the pdfs for both books and shuffle them together in one big binder, at least my chapters will still line up.
As for including the Tintamar setting in with the book, that is a hard call. In some respects you almost need to have a setting that you can use as an example and that you can develop your base technologies for.  The problem is by putting it in as part of the rules book, you do limit how much detail you can provide on the setting.  You will always end up with a more detailed setting if you can devout an entire separate product to it.
But quite frankly, if it isn't at least introduced in the main rule book, how many people are going to purchase it as a separate product?  I would guess a lot fewer than if it's included in the base rules.

One thing I do think is important is that if there are a things scheduled for the Sys Op Guide that quite a few people are wanting, which seems to be the case from our somewhat limited sample group here, then there should not be a long gap between when the base HARP Sci Fi book is released and when the Sys Op Guide comes out.

Now I think I'll go and start printing of the newest Beta version and give it a read through to see how much has changed since the last version I looked at.
Brent Knorr...
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