Author Topic: Modern Ranged Weapons  (Read 7768 times)

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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Modern Ranged Weapons
« on: April 04, 2007, 09:28:42 AM »
Tim and I have been discussing this behind the scenes, we've made a conceptual breakthrough, and have something that will work both in "realism" terms, balance terms, and fun terms. Before I embark on writing it up formally and because there are interconnections we need to catch, we thought we'd invite comments for fine-tuning it.

The key breakthrough is that we have ONE new Weapons Skill Group, namely:
Weapon Class: Modern Ranged
Weapon Group: 1-Handed Energy-Based: flame pistol, laser pistol, minilaser, electrostunner, laser dazzler, sonic stunner, {miniblaster}, {blaster pistol}
Weapon Group: 1-Handed Projectile: holdout gun, pistol, revolver, needle pistol
Weapon Group: 2-Handed Energy-Based: flame rifle, flame repeater, hunting laser, laser rifle, electrorifle, sonic stunrifle, {assault blaster}
Weapon Group: 2-Handed Projectile: assault rifle, hunting rifle, needle rifle, submachine gun
Weapon Group: Support Projectile: light machine gun (bipod), medium machine gun (tripod), heavy machine gun (vehicle mounted) (may be used 2-handed without mounts at -20, -40, and -60 respectively)
Weapon Group: Support Energy: {heavy flamer}, {heavy laser}, {heavy blaster}
Weapon Group: Spread Weapons: autoshotgun, shotgun, {flechette gun}, {chemical sprayers/streamers}, {tanglers}
Weapon Group: Handheld Launchers: {rocketguns, gyrojet pistols}, {grenade launchers}
Weapon Group: Large Launchers: {missile launchers a la bazookas - anti-tank, anti-aircraft}

{} indicates a weapon not currently detailed in HARP SF rules set.

Example of interconnections: Spread Weapons of a suitable size might need to be able to deliver Spread Burst attacks even if they don't have a bona-fide "burst" mode as understood for 1-H or 2-H Energy and Projectile weapons. Grenade launchers need to tie into both rules for shooting and rules for grenade effects.

Tim and I believe this reorganisation should resolve the issues people have had with the initial rules set.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 09:45:38 AM by NicholasHMCaldwell »
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Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 09:46:33 AM »
the "Handheld Launchers" and the "large launchers" groups are perhaps debatable.

A Gyroget pistol with Direct Fire ammo would seem to be 1HD projectile.
A Gyroget rifle with Direct Fire ammo would seem to be 2HD Projectile.
A Missile launcher with Direct Fire ammo would seem to be 2HD projectile.
A Grenade launcher used for direct fire would seem to be 2HD Projectile.
All are extensions of the "point and shoot" concept.
(For that matter, needing 2 skills for projectile pistol vs energy pistol is debatable, though I guess the difference in kick and projectile drop vs beam bloom would make for different enough firing characteristics.)

A Grenade or missile launcher used for indirect fire would seem to belong with whatever group you put mortars in.

Gyroget and Missile launchers using guidence, either Fire-by-wire or Fire-and-forget would seem to be electronics skill, and not weapon skills at all.

1) Open and arm launcher.
2) Aim with included sight mechanism, holding "pip" on target.
3) Wait for "Lock on" signal from weapon.
4) Pull trigger
5) Walk away if fire-and-forget (Or continue to hold sight on target if fire-by-wire)

That sounds like an electronics task to me, or perhaps a fire control skill akin to vehicle or starship weapons. Assigning a target to a computer and pressing a button (or pulling a trigger) doesn't seem like a "Weapon" or "Combat" skill akin to the others in my opinion.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 10:02:47 AM »
Most grenade launchers are additions to assault rifles, and they are only semi-direct as they are NOT fired in the same manner as a rifle, but aimed so that the weapon "lobs" the grenade to its target are (think of it more along the lines as a mini-mortar type of weapon. In other words, the weapon fires the grenade in an arc that must be counted for as direct fire is likely to be too short a range (i.e I shot myself all over with the grenade launcher).

Missile Launchers and things like shoulder fired rockets -- basically, it is sight (or in the future, you sight, get a lock on, and then fire-n-forget, however, the aiming/firing is still basically the same for the shoulder-fired rockets, regardless of the basic tech, I would think.




Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 10:30:14 AM »
Grenade launcher does have an overlap in direct and indirect fire due to it's low muzzle velocity. OTOH take for instance: Dart Guns, BB or Pellet guns, paintball guns, or a baton gun, or a sub sonic .22 (assassin's weapon, very quiet). . .all projectile guns deal with prodectile drop over distance, requiring more aiming up to compensate for longer ranges. . .at what point does the drop in muzzle velocity make a projectile weapon no longer a projectile weapon and into something else?

I'd call dart, pellet, BB, baton, paintball and sub sonic .22s all "Projectile weapons" in terms of how they are used, the only variation between them and the grenade launcher is the end effect being radius. . . .then again, the current military is fooling around with variant assault rifle rounds that remind me of judge dredd. (Proximity explosive, rebounding batons, impact explosive, penetrating explosive, gas rounds, liquid filled rounds.)

A lot of modern anti tank weapons, you lock on, fire, run off. . .the missile tracks in nape of the earth, pops up, and dives on the tank, thus hitting it in the thinner top armor.

The "Shoulder" part of these weapons is merely a benefit to make them man portable and thus sneakier. (Many are actually fired from bi or tri pods). . .some of them are even fired with the missile on your shoulder, while I have the aiming part. (i.e. laser guided rounds). . .some of those heat seeking or laser guided rounds merely need to be fired in the general direction of the target and lock on on their own.

(The un-guided shoulder missiles like LAW are another matter.)

I guess if the weapon requires you to aim it's one thing, if it requires you to "designate a target" it's not really a combat weapon skill.
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Offline Mungo

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 11:27:14 AM »
Hi,

Wow, I am really impressed! I really like this concept and think you have done a wonderful job.

Concerning the Missile discussion:
a) I think it is important to have different skills for things that operate different. Whether a skill is then called Weapon or Electronics or Gunnery is to me of minor concern.
b) Operating a shoulder launched weapon is very different to other weapons. Not only in terms of aiming and shooting, but also in terms of reloading, maintenance, knowledge about ammunition and its effects,....
c) Firing such a weapon is NOT simple. I have fired RPGs and managed to get a basic intoduction to AT missiles. And in both cases aiming was not simple. You have to know where to hit, trajectories, firing with and without sight (if possible), temperature effects on your sight,... Even in case of electronic aim, I would say its still a weapon skill. And in case the system is really that sophisticated that it is "point and click" with a joystick or mouse, then its Gunnery anyway.
 
So bottomline is: Missiles justify in my opinion their own skill. And as they are a weapon, I think they should go as a weapon skill. But not more than one skill, as otherwise we violate the fun and simple law...

BR
Juergen

Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 01:32:43 PM »
I thought these were skill categories. . .I agree that these subs should be individual skills, but I'd think "Grenade Launcher" and "Shotgun" would be two variants of "2 HD Projectile" as a group.

Like, here's a 12 gauge shotgun shell fin stabilized High Explosive Armor Piercing round:
Mid page, photo:

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741

Load that round into the shotgun and it becomes a "Projectile support weapon" instead of "2HD Projectile"? That make any sense?

I think there's a certain truth to "A gun is a gun". . .I agree that they should be individual skills, but a muzzle loading smoothbore musket and a 300 RPM auto shotgun are still both "2 HD Projectile" weapons in my view. I point, I shoot.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 01:46:05 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline allenrmaher

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 01:36:46 PM »
I like the idea of one weapon class, I might cut down on the number of groups especially in 1H/2H.  There are lots of weapon in HARP that do unusual criticals within their groups. So I don't mind mixing criticals in the same group.

The real question for me is the what portion of the rank bonus in one group will I be able to use in another.  If it is like HARP and 1HE then I like it.  If it is like missiles  in HARP, then I don't.  The similarity of these skills and mechanisms should give a bonus.  I can't imagine a crack shot with a pistol having to use a laser pistol at a -25.

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Offline chk

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 02:10:33 PM »
Makes sense to me. When it comes to HARP SF and modern ranged weapons, I prefer HARP's "simple" to SpaceMaster's "complex". If you want to perfectly model reality, play SM:P! (smile)

The weapon groups seem reasonable to me as a layman (I've fired shotguns and rifles and pistols, but I've never played with true military gear like mortars and shoulder-fire missiles.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 02:52:35 PM »
I like the idea of one weapon class, I might cut down on the number of groups especially in 1H/2H.  There are lots of weapon in HARP that do unusual criticals within their groups. So I don't mind mixing criticals in the same group.

The real question for me is the what portion of the rank bonus in one group will I be able to use in another.  If it is like HARP and 1HE then I like it.  If it is like missiles  in HARP, then I don't.  The similarity of these skills and mechanisms should give a bonus.  I can't imagine a crack shot with a pistol having to use a laser pistol at a -25.

The core rule (from HARP) is as follows:

1 weapon within a single group gets full bonus, the rest get -10.

If the category allows it (and I see no reason why this category shouldn't allow it), then if you have skill within one group of a category, you can use 1/4 of the skill rank bonus (or +25), whichever is less, plus stat bonuses and any other applicable bonuses.

This means that if you have a skill rank bonus of 60 (with 20 from stats and other mods for a total bonus of 80) in pistol (projectile - 9 MM), you would be able to pick up a Laser Pistol (or other Energy Pistol) and be able to use it with a total bonus of 35 (60/4 = 15; +20 from stats and other bonuses that apply).

You would also get basically the same bonus for any other weapon group within the Category.



Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 05:25:01 PM »
I thought these were skill categories. . .I agree that these subs should be individual skills, but I'd think "Grenade Launcher" and "Shotgun" would be two variants of "2 HD Projectile" as a group.

Like, here's a 12 gauge shotgun shell fin stabilized High Explosive Armor Piercing round:
Mid page, photo:

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741

Load that round into the shotgun and it becomes a "Projectile support weapon" instead of "2HD Projectile"? That make any sense?

I think there's a certain truth to "A gun is a gun". . .I agree that they should be individual skills, but a muzzle loading smoothbore musket and a 300 RPM auto shotgun are still both "2 HD Projectile" weapons in my view. I point, I shoot.

Big difference in how you reload a Brown Bess to an autoshotgun. The skills are abstracting not only the pointing and shooting, but the reloading, basic maintenance, safe transport, etc., as Mungo is suggesting above.

Note, however, that with everything in the same class and the class treated in the same way as 1HEdged, they get the benefits of a gun is a gun in terms of the quarter-skill/+25 thing

The Wikipedia entry on gyrojets does suggest significant differences from normal firearms. Perhaps you can convince Tim and me that they/rocketguns should be bounced into 1-H Projectiles. However, we might also decide that with so many energy weapons around, there's no reason for them in Tintamar. And the wiki entry did suggest that they were not terribly successful in the 60s.

I'm certainly convinced by Tim's explanations and net entries of grenade launchers that they need to live in their own group. Likewise Mungo et al have convinced Tim and I that the serious portable missiles (whether launch from shoulder or from bi/tripod) are their own weapon group. Similarly the shotgun et al are firing multiple pellets/flechettes/etc spreading their damage in a volume as they travel further so that's different criteria for attacking foes than standard single-shot or stream of bullets attacks. All distinctions based on "how they are used" at some level.

However, this is a HARP rules set. Moreover it's a HARP core rules set. Hence there will be simplifications, particularly of weapons that try to straddle multiple areas. Likewise while there are 4 types of ammunition for "projectile" weapons listed, that deliberately omits ammunitions that change the characteristics of weapons (like the stuff you've described).

There's a potential opportunity for people who are really into guns to create location-specific critical tables a la Martial Law or more complex combat rules and crits a la Hack & Slash for the SF rules set. HARP SF will be sticking with a simpler view of the world.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 08:51:56 PM »
I get the logic, ammo always creates trouble. Like shotguns fire single slug rounds too. Same problem with fantasy and variant arrow types.

BTW, misunderstood the groupings completely, are all "modern gunnary" skills in the same major group, and these are sub groups?

On the missile end, I agree that the LAW style shoulder rockets are a weapon skill, and different from projectiles. OTOH the stinger or tankbuster style "fire and forget" missles where you get a lock with a targeting device, then fire the missile as a self homing projectile, would still seem to be something more akin to vehicle or ship gunnery. (Much like something like a remote controlled machinegun on a tripod you control from a distance should be also.)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 09:02:26 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 09:17:43 PM »
BTW, misunderstood the groupings completely, are all "modern gunnary" skills in the same major group, and these are sub groups?

Gunnery skills, such as for vehicle portable launchers and other things like a howitzer, etc.. Are all under the Gunnery Skill (i.e. Missile Artillery type of skill). These are mostly remote fired weapons (however, it may need some more breakdown - we have not gotten that far just yet, but they ARE SEPARATE from the entire Modern Ranged category of weapons.

On the missile end, I agree that the LAW style shoulder rockets are a weapon skill, and different from projectiles. OTOH the stinger or tankbuster style "fire and forget" missles where you get a lock with a targeting device, then fire the missile as a self homing projectile, would still seem to be something more akin to vehicle or ship gunnery. (Much like something like a remote controlled machinegun on a tripod you control from a distance should be also.)

LAW -- You aim at specific point (i.e. lock on visually) and then fire.
Shoulder-fired AT weapon with self guidance systems - You aim at specific point (i.e. lock on via targeting system at point aimed at visually), and then fire.

Once the projectile leaves the launcher, it is ALWAYS forgotten as you haul your butt to a new location to avoid being hit by return fire. In other words, BOTH are fire-n-forget weapons. The major difference is what the weapons do once you forget them. But both weapons ARE aimed in close enough a manner to put them in the same group.

The entire Modern Ranged Category has NOTHING to do with remotely controlled weapons - that would be Gunnery (be it a machine-gun or a missile battery or a laser device). It is only about man-portable, and personally fired weapons.




Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 09:49:51 PM »
I think you misunderstand my terms guided Fire-and-forget and fire-by-wire mean something objective, and should not be confused with the unguided "dumb" missile like LAW. I'll define:

1) You aim the LAW rocket at the treads on the tank, and fire, your skill is directly impacting results of it hitting the treads, rather than the heavily armored Glacis, much like in melee you would aim for the neck, rather than the center of the breastplate. This is a fairly close in weapon, you fire in a straight line and it hits, within one round. This is called an unguided "dumb" missile.

2) You aim a stinger missile at the cloud of heat generated by an airplane a mile off the ground, it gets a lock, you fire. It closes in on the target, tracking the heat source desite turns. Rounds later it makes close approach, the onboard computer flips into terminal mode, it locks onto a single heat source (one engine) and executes it's pre-programed terminal attack (Either direct impact or proximity detonation.). This is a guided, Fire-and-forget missile.

3) You Aim a Tankbuster missile at a Tank, you get a lock, you fire, it keeps scanning the target, rounds later at a certain moment it enters it's terminal mode, executes a pre-programed terminal maneuver and pops straight up and then vertically down on top of the tank at the thinnest armor. This is a guided, fire-and-forget missile.

4) You aim a TOW II anti tank missile at a tank, you fire it, it spools out a wire behind it which is attached to the launcher, as long as you keep aiming at the target, the missile will keep correcting course and chasing it, until it runs out of wire, then it will just run straight until it hits something. This is a guided fire-by-wire missile.

5) You aim a Hellfire missile, while I am at a distance, closer to the target, pointing a laser pointer on it. Hellfire locks onto the point of reflected laser. You fire. I can then move the laser around, the missile will ignore all else and chace the little dot. A variant Fire-by-wire guided missile.

In example 1, You weapon skill is relevant, you are in every traditional sense of the word executing an attack, your skill vs the target's DB and all that. Roll attack, consult the table, yada yada.

In examples 2 and 3, you are executing a pass/fail maneuver. Can you get a lock on the target or not. . .once you do, the actual attack is executed by the weapon, based on logic programmed into it at manufacture. You execute say a moderate maneuver (Or hard or Easy) based on the circumstances, if you make the maneuver, the weapon has lock, you fire it. . .it will then spend rounds chasing the target until it gets close, then it will execute it's terminal attack. . . .the details of how well the weapon performs that terminal attack are a bit out of your hands. As a human, your job was to get said weapon into range, get a lock, and fire it, the actual attack is executed by a really basic robot inside the missile. (Or more properly, IS the missile) in other words, you might lock and fire, but the weapon itself should have an OB. (Heat Seeking surface to Air missile Mark I 50 OB, Mark II 75 OB, Mark III 100 OB etc etc, or something like that).

In example 4, the missile launches, and you're remote guiding it with the scope or a joystick, which is nerdboy work, it that's a weapon skill, then so is Doom II.

Example 5 is tough, you're firing the missile, but I'm guiding it, so who's skill is relevant? (And is that a weapon skill)

I played a lot of Twilight 2000 and Dark Conspiracy back in the day, sorry, it all came back to me in a flash there.

The weapons listed above are 1980s-1990s weapons. . .they've gotten more and more "smart" since then. . . .and we're talking well into the future here.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 10:01:18 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 10:15:40 PM »
You are talking weapon tech. However, electronic counter-warfare tech would also progress. as well.

To quote a great engineer....

"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." -- Montgomery Scott

Or to put it another way, there will reach a point where it is better to go with the less tech-y weapons because they are less susceptible to being knocked out.....

 ;D

Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 10:30:32 PM »
somehow, offence is always one step ahead of defence, technologically speaking. Entropy at work.

Do you see what I mean about self guided weapons though? (Essentially, other than a hovering helicopter, all anti air missiles have to be self guiding to have any chance of working.)
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2007, 10:53:16 PM »

and those sort of weapons would not be covered by said skills - the skills are for weapons which DO require skill to use....

Don't worry about things that are outside the skill groups.... We are currently worried about the things INSIDE the groups...


Offline Marc R

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2007, 11:02:14 PM »
The entire Modern Ranged Category has NOTHING to do with remotely controlled weapons - that would be Gunnery (be it a machine-gun or a missile battery or a laser device). It is only about man-portable, and personally fired weapons.

Yeah, that's what I said, except for those man portable, personally fired, self guiding ones. . . .

Of all the weapons listed here, only the flamers/plasma guns and chemical sprayers seem to stand apart much, all the rest seem to fit together nicely. (I dunno how much pistol training will help with firing a flamethrower.)
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Offline lazarus

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 12:31:59 AM »
Miller: the only one of those missile types that I see that can't fit into the OB/DB paradigm is the "you fire, I guide" - at which point, it becomes co-operative of a sort.  The guided missiles, if I were writing them up, would just have OB bonuses (not sure what numbers to suggest) and use the Warhead crit.

The "painter" one, I could see as this: "Make a [target painting] skill roll on the Bonus column.  The firer then gets that added to his OB for the shot (for applicable missiles)."

Laz

Offline Mungo

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2007, 03:51:32 AM »
somehow, offence is always one step ahead of defence, technologically speaking. Entropy at work.

Hi,

This has nothing to do with HARP, but I disagree here. Some examples:
 
Russian tank armor is "alive", not only in terms of reactive armor, but also because the glass fiber mats inside start moving once they are under pressure from a projectile (arrow or shaped charge, doesn't matter), thus increasing the effective thickness of the armor. So most of the western ammunition could NOT penetrate modern russian tank armor at some point in time (90ies).

And looking at the +1m ceramic plates on an M1 or Leo2, I think the same applied the other way round. There are also examples from Golf War 1 where an M1 could not kill another M1 (direct hit, the M1 could not move anymore but crew survived).

I am not up to date on the current state of art of technology, but at least in the 90ies I think defense technology had the edge over offense.

BR
Juergen
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 08:56:59 AM by Mungo »

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Modern Ranged Weapons
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2007, 08:59:31 AM »
Before this gets too messy, we will have a Weapon Group for Large Launchers and there will be a Gunnery specialism for missiles (the latter has always been intended). The awkward missiles that seem to be in both camps can then go to wherever the SysOp feels they fit best. Given the messiness involved, I'm very tempted to say that we should postpone the portable self-guided missiles and other in-betweens until some future SF equivalent of Hack & Slash.

With regard to flamers/plasma guns, perhaps they ought to be moved out of 1-H Energy/2-H Energy and into Spread Weapons?

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme