Author Topic: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles  (Read 7469 times)

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Offline Mungo

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Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« on: May 20, 2007, 10:23:25 AM »
Hi,

I just had a deeper look at the different kind of rifles and found that Hunting Rifles have same attack size and RI as Assault Rifles (Laser and Projectile) and lack only the burst capability.

In my opinion this is not realistic:
Assault Weapons are for the military and have therefore the following specifications:
 - Enough impact to kill/impair a human
 - Burst capability (i.e. low recoil) for suppresion fire and mass targets
 - Accurate at a range where you can still aim without sophisticated sights (they are mass production -> must be cheap!)
 - Lowest possible weight per shot (so that you can carry more)

Hunting Weapons:
 - Enough impact to kill large animals
 - with one shot
 - at long ranges
 - Weight of one shot not so important

As a result all Hunting Weapons I know of have on average a much higher impact energy and range than an assault weapon (at least a modern one with 5.56 mm).

So my suggestion is to increase the attack size of Hunting Weapons to Large and increase their RI by 50-100%. This would also lead to the following generic hierarchy, which I consider quite nice:

Critical Size                   Weapon Type
Tiny                                 Mini/Holdout
Small                                Pistol
Medium                             Submachine/Assault
Large                               Hunting/Light Support
Huge                                Medium Support/Heavy Support

BTW: I forgot to mention in my Blaster feedback that I was missing the Blaster Rifle.

BR
Juergen

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2007, 01:31:38 PM »
I'm relatively happy to increase the Attack Size of the hunting weapons. I'd need to think a bit more on range increments.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
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Offline Lord Damian

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 02:53:11 PM »
a few comments from an experianced shootist.  :)
Usually the only REAL difference between assult rifles and hunting rifles IS the burst capability (modern firearms, of course).  a 7.62 NATO round is a .30-06.  Same bullet, same damage.  5.56 is a .223 Remington.  Mind you, hunting rifles DO tend towards the larger end of the caliber spectrum (the above tend to be the smaller end of things, not the top end as for assault rifles). 

As for RI, civilian hunting weapons do tend to be more ACCURATE at a given range, not neccicarily longer ranged.  Range is a function of the propellant in the brass, modified to an extent by barrel length.  Accuracy, on the other hand, can be based on a whole slew of other things.  Harmonics of the barrel when fired, recoil, moving parts (part of why assault rifles tend to be less accurate is  the reciprocating bolt), barrel bedding, etc.

I could see bumping the RI of a civilian rifle easier than bumping the attack size.

Lord Damian

Offline Mungo

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2007, 04:04:23 PM »
Hi,

I had the majority in mind - and I know the majority of today's assault rifles uses 5,56. I think that the majority of the hunting rifles uses a caliber bigger that 5,56, while velocity should be the same (actually hunting rifles could use higher velocities, as the Geneve convention caps assault rifles at 999m/s).

So to me it seemes logical that hunting rifles have a larger attack size.

BR
Juergen

Offline Lord Damian

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2007, 07:53:18 PM »
Hi,

I had the majority in mind - and I know the majority of today's assault rifles uses 5,56. I think that the majority of the hunting rifles uses a caliber bigger that 5,56, while velocity should be the same (actually hunting rifles could use higher velocities, as the Geneve convention caps assault rifles at 999m/s).

So to me it seemes logical that hunting rifles have a larger attack size.

BR
Juergen


Ah, but you're forgetting that the larger calibers were also military calibers, also being limited by the geneva convention, so therefor, also falling into the same general damage capacity.  :)

Offline Mungo

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 05:17:36 AM »
Hi,

But if the velocity is the same but caliber is bigger, than it makes more damage (assuming that higer caliber means higher weight of the projectile), or?

BR
Juergen

Offline Lord Damian

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 05:47:31 AM »
Actually, the larger rounds were slower.  Impact is, i believe, mass times the square of the velocity (mv2), though it may be simply twice the velocity.  the slower rounds were somewhat slower, but quite a bit heavier, so they did aproximately equivilant damage.  i'd have to go out and do my research again, but the main reason for the change to a smaller caliber was so that a trooper could carry more ammo for the same weight.

Lord Damian

Offline Mungo

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 06:22:48 AM »
Hi,

For military rifles:
AUG (5,56mm): about 990m/s
MG42, FAN (7,62mm): about 800m/s

So here higher calibers have lower velocity (which goes in squared), but do hunting rifles have the same ammunition?

And what about rifles to kill bears and elephants - what caliber do they have? They should be bigger than 7,62, or?

BR
Juergen

Offline Lord Damian

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 04:40:36 PM »
Hi,

For military rifles:
AUG (5,56mm): about 990m/s
MG42, FAN (7,62mm): about 800m/s

So here higher calibers have lower velocity (which goes in squared), but do hunting rifles have the same ammunition?

And what about rifles to kill bears and elephants - what caliber do they have? They should be bigger than 7,62, or?

BR
Juergen

Those would technicly be big game rifles, which, yes, have a higher caliber.  but for the most part, hunting rifles use military calibers, yes.

Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 02:46:52 PM »
I've upped the RI on a hunting rifle (and laser equivalent) by 10m as there seems to be agreement there from those who actually use such. Have not touched the Attack Size yet.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline Mungo

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2007, 12:45:35 AM »
Hi,

Yes, I think we have agreement on the RI.

Concerning critical size I see 2 issues:
a) 7.62 is used by light machine guns. If we get an agreement here, that this caliber does not mean a higher critical size (which I still don't quite believe) then also the Light Machine Gun would make only Medium criticals, its only advantage then being range and burst fire as main mode of operation.

b) Concerning single-fire weapons I think we might have to differentiate. If the normal hunting rifle does indeed not make more damage than an assault rifle (which as mentioned I have problems to believe, because this means 7,62 caliber is meaningless), then there are still rifles out there that definitely make more damage. E.g. modern sniper rifles are single fire and go up to .50 caliber. So my suggestion then would be to introduce another single-fire weapon called "Sniping ..." which makes Large criticals and has a higher RI. And is extremely expensive and restricted.

Added:
To come back to Critical Size:
- I know that 7,62 caliber penetrates e.g. steel plates where a 5,56 does not get through (I have seen it personally), so energy can't be the same
- As far as I understand damage to a body is not determined by energy of the projectile, but by energey transferred from the projectile to the body. And here a higher caliber flying at lower speed has definitely more potential for energy transfer (because it has a larger area for energy transfer and due to its lower speed it stays longer in the body. And lower speed means also higher chance for tumbling, increasing damage further).

For me both points are clear arguments in favour of increasing the Critical size for 7,62 caliber weapons to Large (as 5.56 mm caliber is already defined as Medium). And as most hunting rifles seem to have a caliber bigger than 5.56, this would mean upgrading them to Large.

BR
Juergen
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 01:02:33 AM by Mungo, Reason: last 2 bullets concerning critical size added »

Offline Lord Damian

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2007, 03:19:43 AM »
Burst does not neccicarily translate directly to number of rounds fired.  each point of burst could be 5 rounds or 10, thus justifying the larger crit.

As for energy transferal, you're correct, however, just as that 7.62 round went through a steel plate where the 5.56 didn't, the same is more likley to happen to the human (or non human) body, the so called "soft" target.  the lighter round carries less energy, but dumps it faster (iirc, i could be way off on this) where as the heavier round carries more energy through.

However, something else to consider is that a: the geneva convention may no longer be in effect, b: there may be a reason for high energy projectiles in the military (IE Explosive rounds), and c: we ain't writing the dang thing.  :D

Lord damian

Offline Mungo

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2007, 05:07:45 AM »
Hmm, that opens a question to Nicholas:

When determining the Critical Size of Machine Guns, did you figure the Burst already in (as they are normally not used with single shot) or does a Burst increase the Critical's size one further?

BR
Juergen

Offline Marc R

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2007, 06:16:35 AM »
The major variation between military and hunting rounds is "Full metal jacket", military rounds are fully copper clad to make them light armor piercing, which makes the bullet far harder than "soft" lead rounds. Result is threefold:

Bullet is harder, so the rifling in the barrell is finer, giving less rotation, and less long range accuracy. (Military rounds can damage civilian rifling.)
Finer rifling/harder bullet makes for a less "Tight" bullet fit in the barrel, making for a less efficiant holdback of outgassing, less V.
Harder bullet will penetrate armor better, but mushrooms less, resulting in more "clean" through-and-through hits and less of a little-hole-in-big-hole-out result. (This is probably the major reason for the differences in inflicted wounds discussed above.)

Major variation between the 5.56 and 7.62 rounds in terms of utility complaints I've heard is "soft cover". . .the 5.56 will tumble and deviate after hitting foliage and the like, while the 7.62 usually ignores soft cover and remains accurate. (Making the latter round better for punching through jungle or forest soft cover.)

Most hunting rifles and rounds come in "Magnum" versions ALA .306 Magnum. . .which is more propellent. They're almost always soft lead shot, often hollow or scoop point rounds.

Standard sniper rifle is 7.62mm, there are heavier .50 cal ones like the Barrett, or even 20mm ones like the Storm Gun. (Single shot rifles go up to a scale intended for killing elephants with single shots, or conversely punching holes into Armored Personel Carriers or Military Helicopter armor.)

Those .50 cal and 20mm rounds are longer than your hand, especially in the crew mounted m-gun versions.

I forget the citation, but a .50 machinegun round specification retains lethal velocity after passing through "one course of bricks", which is about what your standard post 19th century brick building is made out of.. . .(as in, "No, that one layer brick wall is concealment, not cover.")
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Offline Lord Damian

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2007, 08:28:24 AM »
I shoot high cal long range silhouette/target shooting, so most of my experiance is with the big boys anyway (my rifles a .50 cal, and i used to regularly shoot a 20mm), and yes, the 50 cal dosn't really notice little things like walls and engine blocks much, and the 20 mike just turns things inside out, BUT, that wasn't what we were talking about.  :)  still fun to discuss though.  Over in the base HARP discussion i had the rough workings of a design-your-own system for powder guns, though it would work with a few additions for most modern firearms.

Lord Damian

Offline Mungo

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2007, 08:34:47 AM »
Lord Miller:

Thanks for the clarifications. What does this mean in terms of HARP SF Critical Sizes and RIs for you?

BR
Juergen

Offline markc

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2007, 12:56:46 PM »
I shoot high cal long range silhouette/target shooting, so most of my experiance is with the big boys anyway (my rifles a .50 cal, and i used to regularly shoot a 20mm), and yes, the 50 cal dosn't really notice little things like walls and engine blocks much, and the 20 mike just turns things inside out, BUT, that wasn't what we were talking about.  :)  still fun to discuss though.  Over in the base HARP discussion i had the rough workings of a design-your-own system for powder guns, though it would work with a few additions for most modern firearms.

Lord Damian

LD,
 A side note I use Traveller 3's Fire Fusion and Steel for designing weapons and it is very accurate but cumbersom. Also thier is no direct way to translate it to HARP unless you use Arms Law and RMSS: Firearms Law. AL:FA has a table in the front for weapon energy to table #. FF&S also has rules for craetion of guass weapons and all sorts of stuff.

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Offline Marc R

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2007, 01:11:40 PM »
As far as I understand Nick's previous comments, very little.

Technically a 5.56 round is a 5.56 round per the rules as is.

The issues of:
"Magnum" rounds with extra propellant,
soft lead vs full metal jacket (And how those affect rifling and firing characteristics.)
hollow points

Are all things Nick said he did NOT want to cover in this book, instead being something to be left later for the SysOps guide. So, with variations in ammo pulled out as material for a later book, the differences between civilian and military weapons ends up being "Not much".

Perhaps, considering the absurd sizes that some "Elephant" Guns reach, you could just keep extending the rifle out so that the top rifle entry matches the lowest "Cannon" entry. . . .but on the flip side, a 20mm "Storm Gun" should almost never come up in play. . .it's sort of like a fantasy PC with a 25' pike. . . .a rather absurd, utterly un concealable, rather impractical for most uses, super-specialised piece of equipment.

As GM, I'd likely have that PC jam or bang into doorways 5-6 times a session if they insisted on hauling something like that around all the time. (It's the sort of weapon kept in a base or vehicle that perhaps you break out to use once every 10 sessions, if that. It's like a rifle for hunting T-rex with.)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 01:23:22 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2007, 01:26:08 PM »
Take a look at the picture at the top of this page:

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/lahti.html

Lahti 20mm rifle. . . .imagine the maneuver penalty. . . .
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Assault vs. Hunting Rifles
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2007, 02:04:17 PM »
Hmm, that opens a question to Nicholas:

When determining the Critical Size of Machine Guns, did you figure the Burst already in (as they are normally not used with single shot) or does a Burst increase the Critical's size one further?

BR
Juergen


The Burst is not figured into machine guns and support weapons because you may use them in suppression fire or spread burst actions, which do not increase the attack size.

Hence an Aimed Burst will increase the attack size of a light machine gun or light support blaster/laser.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme