Topic: Character Reaction and Orientation

[FatSteve]

I have always had an issue with the way player characters respond in unexpected situations.  They always have their actions planned out and perfectly coordinated.  They always move to the perfect spot.  They are never confused (unless stunned) about what they should do in a crisis.  And above all, they always react instantly (or even faster if the GM doesn't stop them from the "oh, yeah, I had my armor on while I was sleeping" syndrome). 

How realistic is that?  Seriously, the average person takes between one and a half to three and a half seconds to hit the brake when driving and faced with an unexpected situation like an animal jumping into the road.  Can you imagine the screams of protest if you told your player characters they have to take a full two rounds before they can react to an ambush? 

Now I know player characters are supposed to be heroic and decisive individuals, but c'mon. 

Does anyone else agree with me on this?  I am thinking of adding some kind of maneuver roll for Reaction and Orientation when faced with an unexpected or disorienting situation.  Characters would roll and the result would determine how quickly they could react, or what actions they could take. 

For example, with a middle-range roll, I would only allow combat actions like "sudden dodge" or "dive for cover" for a round.  A poor roll would mean the character could not react at all.   

Does anyone else use something like this?  I am running my first-ever HARP SF campaign (although I have been GMing Rolemaster for about 25 years) and I am noticing this problem more and more with the two-second combat rounds. 

FatSteve

[markc]

Thinking
MDC

[Arioch]

I am thinking of adding some kind of maneuver roll for Reaction and Orientation when faced with an unexpected or disorienting situation.  Characters would roll and the result would determine how quickly they could react, or what actions they could take. 

Being surprised in HARP gives you a -20 to Initiative for the first round. Isn't this enough?

[FatSteve]

Being surprised in HARP gives you a -20 to Initiative for the first round. Isn't this enough?

I'm not sure an initiative penalty really sums up what I want here.  Initiative merely shows when your action in a round is resolved.  Using initiative to represent suprise still allows a suprised character to have his full activity for that round.  Even if he resolves any actions last, he still performs the same amount of activity as the ambusher in those two seconds.   

In reality, a suprised person often fails to act completely for a considerable time.  In studies related to driving, reactions where the responses are fairly limited (hit the brakes or turn the wheel) still took a few seconds.  In a completely unanticipated event, people tend to lock up for even longer. 

Conversely, in situations where there is a reflex involved, like flinching away from something you didn't see coming, reactions can be very rapid.  But as soon as you require what Colonel John Boyd called the "OODA Loop" reaction times tend to get longer.  (OODA= Observation, Orientation, Decision, Action.) 

Of course it is all just a game, and the idea is to have fun, but I like to throw in some realism when I can.  Just telling the players, "You can't act this round" and then quoting studies and saying "OODA Loop" tends to make them mad or frustrated.  If I tell them, "When suprised or disoriented, you have to roll this maneuver" then they just get mad at the dice.  Plus it seems more "fair" if they have a chance of getting what they want, even if it isn't a great chance. 

FatSteve

[providence13]

Fatsteve,

Sounds good. I'm all about adding realism to games! What I don't soapbox for is adding extra dice rolls.
IMO, this realism is already inherent in the system. (Monty Python: "Can't you see the realism inherent in the system.") IMO, there are rules aplenty to go around for all, and to spare.

Using initiative to represent surprise still allows a surprised character to have his full activity for that round.  Even if he resolves any actions last, he still performs the same amount of activity as the ambusher in those two seconds. 

Unless they're taken out before they get to react.

I could see us taking Sit/Aware:Specific Disorienting Situations. Then, we would start the whole "GM nerfing vs player specific skill to counter act nerf wars" again. I'm still miss that table.

[providence13]

But wait! (rolling up sleeves)

If you really wanted to go this route...
Have a Cognitive Reactive Initiative and a Reflexive Reactive Initiative.
       RR Init could be handled just like combat now, but Ambush starts a "clock." Whatever is rolled over 100% for Ambush reduces the % activity of the one Ambushed for that round! You react slower and you have less "time" to perform your action in our arbitrary combat round. Or just give every basic action a % activity (of a round) requirement....
       CR Init would then require a Sense Ambush roll. If you make that, then try an Orientation roll. If you make that, have them state their actions. If they fail these, they can try again next round; but auto advance to the next stage.. Maybe just to be used for low lvl characters. You may want to combine the Decision and Action into one roll before the players get that glazed look in their eyes and one pipes up "I've got my Mechwarrior stuff in the car..."

The first combat system was wonderful, but it sank into the swamp...
So, we built a second combat system, but that sank into the swamp...
We then built a third combat system and that one sank into  the swamp too.
Many people would stop right there and play Mechwarrior, but not us no!
We built a fourth combat system and the players flipped the table, burned the charts, tied up the GM and then it sank into the swamp.
But the fifth system held laddie; and that's what we still use today!

Fatsteve, I'm really not makin' fun of you; It's funny 'cause this sounds like something I would do to the players. Until they unionized...

[FatSteve]

Fatsteve, I'm really not makin' fun of you; It's funny 'cause this sounds like something I would do to the players. Until they unionized...

Yes, I do get carried away sometimes.  It's my.... what's that word...?   

But I was thinking something very simple.  Just add a fifth column to the maneuver table with simple results.  Perhaps the Sense Ambush skill or something like it would add to the roll.  Or it might be based on a couple stats, or the character's overall level.  Or a combination of stats level and skill ranks in Sense Ambush. 

One quick roll and you get some kind of result like "D2" which would mean you are limited to a set of strictly defensive actions for two rounds.  If one of the "D actions" (sudden dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge) isn't appropriate, you can't do anything. 

A really poor roll would might be something like "F1."  This would mean you freeze for one round and then you get another roll. 

A good roll would allow you to do what PCs normally do anyway:  Spring into perfectly-coordinated action without hesistation, squeezing every last posible motion out of the two-second round, while moving to the perfect location to execute your well-thought-out tactical plan.   

[sunwolf]

Another option is to have general pre-determined reflex reactions for a character when they are surprised with a maneuver roll allowing them to change it.
Example: Fred always will try and hit something (with his fist) if he unexpectedly senses something/someone close by.  This of course could be a problem if it is something or someone Fred wouldn't normally want to hit.

[Arioch]

In reality, a suprised person often fails to act completely for a considerable time.  In studies related to driving, reactions where the responses are fairly limited (hit the brakes or turn the wheel) still took a few seconds.  In a completely unanticipated event, people tend to lock up for even longer.  

Well, a round is 2 second long more or less, if you act at the end of a rnd, it means that you've hesitated of 2 seconds. 

[providence13]

Situation Awareness:Combat?

[providence13]

Well, a round is 2 second long more or less, if you act at the end of a rnd, it means that you've hesitated of 2 seconds. 

That is a fast round! 1/2 to 1 sec to think and 1/2 to 1 sec to act. Do alot of actions take multiple rounds to set up?

And forget more than 1 action/rnd.

 

[FatSteve]

Well, a round is 2 second long more or less, if you act at the end of a rnd, it means that you've hesitated of 2 seconds.

Only if your action takes no time to complete.  What if, for example, you are attempting to do a full move?  Your initiative only determines when you resolve the action, in situations where it matters who resolves their action first.  If you hesitate for two seconds and then start to move, wouldn't you be moving during the second round and doing nothing during the first?

[FatSteve]

Situation Awareness:Combat?

I was thinking of also being able to apply this to other situations.  For example, you are teleported to an unknown location.  How long do you need to orient yourself and act?  Or, you have just been through a rollover car crash.  How long do you need before you take off your seat belt and spring into action?

I like the idea of applying a skill to this.  This represents the superiority of trained reflexes, like what Sunwolf mentioned above.  In this situations I always act this way. 

Perhaps I will use a fixed set of stat bonuses, and add the appropriate Situation Awareness skill when it applies, thus giving the trained character a distinct advantage, while still leaving him vulnerable to the completely new situation.  For example, you would always roll d100 and add your Quickness and Isight bonuses.  If you were ambushed, anyone with skill in Situation Awareness - Combat could add that bonus.  If you suddenly found yourself teleported into the rapids of a mountain river, even the combat-trained veteran might find himself at a loss for a few seconds. 

As a side note, I am just using the "teleported into a strange situation" as an example to represent any of the many situations a character may find himself in unexpectedly.  I know you can't teleport someone against their will in Rolemaster (or HARP, I imagine).  But hey, you never know what technological traps the Galactic Overlord might employ.   

[markc]

 IMO you can use the skill res chart as was talked about above but I would have the frozen time be larger than 1 round if you are using 2s rounds. I have seen some people freeze for about 6s when they totally fail mentally to react to a situation. And in RL 6 sec is not that long.

MDC

[Maelstrom]

I have always had an issue with the way player characters respond in unexpected situations.  They always have their actions planned out and perfectly coordinated.  They always move to the perfect spot.  They are never confused (unless stunned) about what they should do in a crisis.  And above all, they always react instantly (or even faster if the GM doesn't stop them from the "oh, yeah, I had my armor on while I was sleeping" syndrome). 

How realistic is that?  Seriously, the average person takes between one and a half to three and a half seconds to hit the brake when driving and faced with an unexpected situation like an animal jumping into the road.  Can you imagine the screams of protest if you told your player characters they have to take a full two rounds before they can react to an ambush? 

I don't know about you but it takes me less than 1 second to hit the brakes on my car.  I believe typical stats say a third to a half second for completing that manuever (which was quoted to me in my drivers ed class, so many moons ago, and verified under said many moons of driving experience.)

In another forum (different website) an SCA enthusiast commented on how long 1 and 2 seconds really is in actual real live combat.  I think a -20 to init sufficiently describes reaction to a surprise situation.  Additionally, there's an element of time seeming to slow down significantly when faced with a dire/emergency situation.  I've experienced that and the mental functioning of my brain seems to go 10 times faster than my body can respond.

Disorientation on the other hand could be simulated by a stunned condition.  Perhaps if something is sufficiently surprising enough (say a fumbled perception roll) it could result in being stunned into inactivity.  That I wouldn't have a problem with.

[FatSteve]

IMO you can use the skill res chart as was talked about above but I would have the frozen time be larger than 1 round if you are using 2s rounds. I have seen some people freeze for about 6s when they totally fail mentally to react to a situation. And in RL 6 sec is not that long. 

I agree.  I think some actions would still be possible for a player character, but I would limit those to things like dive for cover and minimize exposure.  Purely defensive maneuvers that would be drilled into anyone with combat training. 

[Hawkwind]

I think one think you need to be very careful of here is the effect that this will have on combat outcomes. If you give the party's opponents 1 or 2 rounds where the party can't do anything except dodge - and perhaps nothing at all - then its quite possible that the combat will be effectively over.

I also agree with Maelstrom that, IME, reaction times are much faster than you seem to think, but even if people are caught completely by surprise, you need to consider game balance as much as realism.

Hawk

[FatSteve]

I think one thing you need to be very careful of here is the effect that this will have on combat outcomes.

I agree, this will have a significant impact on combat in ambush situations.  That is one of the reaons soldiers try so hard to set up an ambush.  Hours of effort to get those few seconds of disorientation are well worth it.  Of course, combat is only one of many situations where this might apply. 

I also agree with Maelstrom that, IME, reaction times are much faster than you seem to think, but even if people are caught completely by surprise, you need to consider game balance as much as realism.

Again I agree.  (About the need for game balance, not reaction time.)  But with me, and with several of my players, it is also fair to say you need to consider realism as much as game balance.  As long as it is applied evenly across the board, and the players know about the rule change in advance, I believe it will balance out. 

[markc]

 I was thinking about this topic on the way home today and came up with this. The ambusher must make a ambush set up maneuver before his target approaches. This give the "party or target" a number to roll against. Then depending on the roll the "target" may or may not act in that round, the next round or maybe a fumble in 2+ rounds.

 I see a big difference between a person who is paying attention and those who are doing other tasks when something happens to them. Depending on how much they are actively doing the other task when the interruption happens.

MDC

[FatSteve]

I was thinking about this topic on the way home today and came up with this. The ambusher must make a ambush set up maneuver before his target approaches. This give the "party or target" a number to roll against. Then depending on the roll the "target" may or may not act in that round, the next round or maybe a fumble in 2+ rounds.

 I see a big difference between a person who is paying attention and those who are doing other tasks when something happens to them. Depending on how much they are actively doing the other task when the interruption happens.

Lots of good points here.  Ambushes require skill to set up.  Skilled scouts can detect ambushes early.  Being in a state of awareness really mitigates any delay in reaction time.  It is hard to divide your attention between two critical tasks.  I like it. 

You should read the book "On Combat" by Col. Dave Grossman.  He talks about different states of awareness, with "White" being the lowest.  (I don't think he came up with the terms, but he describes their effect on combat very well.)  He describes a huge difference in reactions between that and the next level, "Condition Yellow."  The primary difference between the two is a person's state of awareness, whereas the later "conditions" deal with other aspects of combat.  (His "Bulletproof Mind" seminars are also worth the time, but they are usually only given to police and military.) 

I think I will definately have to include something along these lines.  But - with a nod to some of the other posts here - I also want to keep it as simple as possible so it won't bog down the game.  Still, a roll or two for something that could be this important is certainly worth it. 

Perhaps an "Ambush" roll on the bonus column, with a positive result applied as a penalty to the Reaction and Orientation roll.