Author Topic: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.  (Read 5553 times)

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Offline markc

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 02:07:03 AM »
A couple of more thoughts;
 1) Does not a flat bonus reduce the damage you would have received if you did not have a shield as well as the crit?
 2) Another option might be to introduce an option like helms or armor enchantments of reducing the crit or negating a crit if the shield wielder makes a roll. The % chance would be based on the type of shield, type of damage, creature size, (maybe even weapon) and the crit severity. The problem here might be that it might make shields too powerful.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 02:40:58 AM »
Option 2 above already exists. I have a character in a party working on the Curse of Kabis and I have a superior quality non magical helm that has a 50% chance of ignoring the effects of a head critical. I am pretty sure that that helm is an official item as described in the adventure rather than a GM creation.

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Offline markc

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2014, 09:47:15 AM »
  For @ above I know of enchantments that provide a negate crit option but I do not know of any just helm abilities ... but I will take a look at Arms Comp to see if it is in there when I have the chance.   
  Also I think that the 50% number is a bit high for just a non-magic helm, unless the % chance is reduced by the crit severity, IMHO that is. ;D



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Offline Peter R

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2014, 10:00:30 AM »
I agree but I am just wearing it, I didn't make it. If the GM says 50% you take it and walk away smiling.
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Offline markc

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2014, 10:44:12 AM »
 ;D I agree 50% crit negation is huge in my book. ;D
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2014, 11:28:57 AM »
Presumably it is only going to work once and require repairing between 'uses'. I don't know as I haven't taken a head crit since getting it. It is not the sort of thing you want to test too often.

If anyone has the curse of kabis module they can check to see if it is in there. There is a side adventure against an evil mentalist and one of his henchmen is wearing it, or he was until he upset the party, now he is no more and I have his helm.
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Offline markc

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2014, 05:07:40 PM »
Warl,
 Another idea is to simply give shields hits and apply the damaged rolled to the shield, as the shields hits degrade there is a chance the shield would break after the hit (almost miss-typed a bad word there).
  With this idea shields would break all of the time IMHO with magic shields being no exception. And IMHO this would mean that investing in a magic shield would not be such a good idea as the cost vs longevity factor would be very poor.
  If you use a computer to track shield hits this would be a lot easier than having a person do it also as it would reduce bookkeeping.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2014, 07:48:47 PM »
Right now it's looking like this:

Anyone without Skill can sue a shield to Block.
They get a d100+ shield Bonus ( See below for our modified Shield Bonuses )
Those Who have Developed Skill ( Shield skill Str/AG cost = 1 handed Crushing (debating giving it a separate cost based on profession separate from weapons. )

If the Block roll exceeds the attack roll the Attack roll the The Shield Takes the hit.
The Gm checks the attack Roll on the Chart Normally for results less Defense using X AT ( still deciding on What AT to use though may define this based on Material type).
Compare the result versus what the shield can take.

Buckler = 10 hits / -1 Crit reduction
Target = 15 Hits / -1 Crit
Normal = 20 hits / -2 Crit
Full Shield = 25 Hits / -2 Crit
Wall Shield = 30 hits / -3 Crit

All Hits that exceed the shields "absorbancy" Transfer into the character +5 hit per crit type exceeded.
Johns Target shield is hit for a 22C, The Shield reduces the the hits by 15 and the crit 1 level, but since it still exceeded the shields absorbancy, John Feels the blow, taking 17 hits of damage. 22-15+10 for 2 crits higher.
Had John been using a Normal shield, he would have only suffered 7 hits of damage from the shock of the blow. 


Also, The Gm would check for breakage normally, But the breakage factor of the shield would be permanently reduced by 5 points for each level of crit that exceeds it's value, and -1 point for each crit level it absorbed.

Now of course, Quality Material and even Magic Can increase the Absorbancy levels of a Shield. And Magic Makes it more resilient.
Magic shields Aren't as Easily "beaten" to death.  They Only take damage to the Breakage factor at a rate of -1 per crit that exceeded it's value. Crits that are absorbed have no effect of a Magically enchanted shield.

A Shield can Absorb additional hits equal to it's Quality/Magical Bonuses, and it's Crit absorbancy is increased 1 level per 10 points of quality/magic.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2014, 10:23:56 PM »
Is the block roll modified in any way? If not, it's going to usually be successful for combatants with shield skill, since it's opposing an attack roll which has been modified down by DB and parry.

Let's see what happens, looking on the Broadsword table (I'm looking at the RMFRP tables, 1999 printing, but I think it is close enough to the same):

Against AT 1:
* a roll of 90 does 11B. Your full shield reduction brings that down to 0. A +25 shield DB bonus would also bring it to 0.
* a roll of 110 does 18D, your full shield on a block brings that down to 0B. A +25 shield DB would bring it down to 12C.
* a roll of 130 does 24E, yours brings that down to 0C, DB 25 brings it down to 16D.
* a roll of 150 does 30E. Yours: 5C. DB: 22E.

AT 14:
* roll of 90, 7. Yours: 0. DB: 3.
* roll of 110, 11A. Yours: 0. DB: 6.
* roll of 130, 15C. Yours: 0A. DB: 10AS.
* roll of 150, 18E. Yours: 0C. DB: 14C.

AT 20:
* roll of 90, 5. Yours: 0. DB: 3.
* roll of 110, 6. Yours: 0. DB: 4.
* roll of 130, 7A. Yours: 0. DB: 6.
* roll of 150, 8E. Yours: 0C. DB: 7AK.

That's only a sampling, but in general your method blocks all or nearly all the hits, and some of the criticals (when the block roll succeeds). Against AT 14, the criticals are actually fairly similar either way. Against AT 1, the criticals are less severe. Against AT 20, the criticals on harder hits may be more severe than if the shield only gave DB -- also, the harder hits are the ones where you are least likely to block successfully, because the target number is higher. Heavy armor may be losing out here (especially since the block will sometimes fail). But light armor is coming out ahead already, so just giving better benefits for the shield may not be the best answer. An all-or-nothing block would treat all armor types the same, but then you need to adjust the odds of a successful block a little more carefully.

The other thing to think about is that because your method is cancelling most of the hits, but not the crits, fights will more often be decided by a lucky crit roll and less often by attrition. Personally I consider that not advantageous, but opinions vary and it's possible it usually goes that way for you already.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2014, 10:56:16 PM »
Quote
* a roll of 90 does 11B. Your full shield reduction brings that down to 0. A +25 shield DB bonus would also bring it to 0.

okay let me clarify that part.

The DB bonus of the shield does not apply as DB anymore.

It only adds to the "Block" roll to see if an attack is successfully blocked.

The only DB that applies against the Attack roll now is Base defense (QU) and parry..

which I forgot to mention, with this rule we have decided that all Parry is as 50% applied ( if you put 10 ob into parry you get 5DB ) when one is employing a shield.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2014, 11:23:06 PM »
Understood. What I'm doing is comparing the result according to your rule (shield block effect, no DB) vs the result according to the rules as written (RAW: no shield block effect, shield grants DB). So where I list the result with DB, what I mean is that is the result without using your house rule.

If you also halve the parry DB when people are using a shield, the characters in heavy armor (e.g. AT 20) are going to be disadvantaged even more relative to the rules as written, because the initial modified roll will be higher under your house rule than under RAW, even before you consider that the shield DB would be more beneficial than your block. You previously said you want shields to be more desirable; I would say all told they are less desirable under the rules you listed, for combatants in medium to heavy armor (but maybe more desirable for people with no armor).
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Offline Warl

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2014, 11:38:26 PM »
Understood. What I'm doing is comparing the result according to your rule (shield block effect, no DB) vs the result according to the rules as written (RAW: no shield block effect, shield grants DB). So where I list the result with DB, what I mean is that is the result without using your house rule.

If you also halve the parry DB when people are using a shield, the characters in heavy armor (e.g. AT 20) are going to be disadvantaged even more relative to the rules as written, because the initial modified roll will be higher under your house rule than under RAW, even before you consider that the shield DB would be more beneficial than your block. You previously said you want shields to be more desirable; I would say all told they are less desirable under the rules you listed, for combatants in medium to heavy armor (but maybe more desirable for people with no armor).

ah well, In our game, in order to help re-balance (in our opinion) Armour, I do not apply a Quickness/defense penalty for wearing armour.
(by RAW, it is pretty much impossible not to get hit and take damage in AT20, and In many lower ATs you are more likely to take a crit than wearing no armour at all. I look Forward to the RMU attack tables where this is resolved by having damage start pretty much at the same attack success level)

Also to aid in this, I give a DB (varying depending on AT type) to those who wear armor to offset the oddity we find in this, It works for us. But that bonus would not apply against the Shield block, only against a Strike that is Not successfully Blocked.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2014, 11:54:20 PM »
Quote
But light armor is coming out ahead already, so just giving better benefits for the shield may not be the best answer.

I am not seeing where you got that lighters armours came out ahead?

Secondly, let me make it clear that when a Shield Blocks... you don't role a Crit against the wielder, They only suffer concussion hit damage from the blows "shock" value.

So in your examples,

At AT 1, yes by RAW, a 90 roll would have taken no damage at all.. but by blocking, he suffered from 5 point concussion hits damage from the shock of the blow.
but at the 150 level, instead of suffering a 22E crit, he instead only suffers 20 hit damage from the shock of the blow.

with your example of AT20
My rule yielded no damage at all until the 150 roll, which would be 15 hits damage from the shock of the blow... But by the RAW the AT20 wearer to damage at all levels but suffered a possible Crit injury (A) at the 150 roll.

Perhaps what I wrote there wasn't clear that the, on a successful block, the critical only add to hits damage from the shock of the blow. You do not actually roll for a critical Result.

this alo in a way may explain those Blows that Slide off and still glancingly strike the opponent.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2014, 07:23:23 AM »
Perhaps what I wrote there wasn't clear that the, on a successful block, the critical only add to hits damage from the shock of the blow. You do not actually roll for a critical Result.

I don't understand what you mean here. If I've misinterpreted your rule, then my comparison between your rule and the RAW may be off.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2014, 11:09:51 AM »
Squigy and Lenny face off in a fight.

Squigy has is using Broadsword and Normal Shield (1/2 Parry bonuses)
AT9
DB: 15
OB : 80 with 20 points put to DB ( DB = 25)
Shield Block skill = 40+25 giving him a 65 to block.

Lenny is Just using a Broad sword
AT9
DB : 15
OB :80 with 20 points to DB ( DB = 35 )

Lenny Attacks Squigy and Rolls 85+60 for OB = 145 less Squigy's DB of 25 = 120
Squigy rolls to Block the attack with his shield and rolls 74+65 = 139
He succeeds in blocking the blow.
Lenny's Attack of 120 would have yielded a 15DK.
Since Squigy is using a Normal shield, the Shield absorbs the 15 hits of damage. But since the shield can only absorb the shock of  2 levels of crit, (an A or B crit ) there are still 2 levels of crit exceeding it. Squigy Feels the shock of the Blow, taking 10 hits damage through the shield. (5 hits damage per crit level exceeding the shields rating).
He feels good though cause that blow could have seriously hurt him.
But the Blow Also left a good Mark on his shield (BF is now reduced 12 points from 155 to 143)

On the Next Attack
Lenny Rolls a 113+60 = 173 - 25 = 148
Squigy Rolls to Block rolling an 80+65 = 145 Not enough to Block so he suffers a sever Blow.
Taking a 22E
Had Squigy but rolled a few Points Higher the Shield would have reduced the Hits to 2 Points Plus 15 from the Excess crit shock value leaving Lenny suffering 17 hits of damage but relatively Uninjured.
But the, Blow Lenny Delivered also exceeded the shields Currently reduced Breakage Factor. BF 143 vs Attack of 148, checking the BF of the sword shows it to have a BF 160, So Squigy's Shield Would have shattered under Lenny's Blow becoming Useless to defend with.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2014, 12:01:02 PM »
One of my PC's has an easy fix for this question.  2H Battle Axe of Shield Slaying.  After the 1st hit, those pesky shields just "go away" LOL

If I could only find more of those weapons!  :-[
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2014, 10:04:28 PM »
OK, so since you referenced this thread, I figured I read up on what was being discussed.


I do not believe this proposal to be an appropriate fit for Rolemaster in any way...
I see this  proposal as a way of creating a system which rewards the high skilled against the non-skilled.
As one poster previously wrote, in Rolemaster a 1st level fighter has a chance of taking out a 10th level fighter.
As a matter of fact, if you are less skilled and fighting a more powerful foe, your best option by far is to just parry 100% so that you still have that 5% chance of OE'ing and maybe get a death blow in. 


The proposal that I prefer is any time you (or an NPC) does anything, you get a roll for it.
If you are in combat you get a roll when you are on offense, and you get a roll when you are on defense - so opposing actions get opposing rolls.


As for shields... heck, they are nothing more than specialized tools - just like swords, maces, flails, etc.
As a tool it can receive bonuses (or penalties) on both offense and defense, and in each (offense and defense) the tool can have a bonus/penalty on the ability to hit the target (block the strike on defense) or a bonus/penalty on damage delivered (absorbed). 
A sword generally gets bonus on the offense strike and maybe on damage (2-handed sword), but unlikely to get a bonus on defense or absorb any general damage.
A Shield would get the bonus on the defense block and maybe (if spiked or a shield designed for bashing) on the offense damage.
The key is that the shield is developed as a skill, just like the sword is.
Net comparison determines the result and may result in a critical.


A few additional points...
* In this version a low level hero still has the same chance to OE on offense, but now they also have that chance of OE on defense, but otherwise the higher skilled individual will be much more likely to win since on average the rolls will generally balance out.
* Ambush or Sniping.... It now means something... It means that the defender is not defending themselves, therefore the attacker simply rolls against a difficulty level and the net determines their success which is generally much higher
* Armor reduces the net effect after the hit is determined...
* Heavy armor increases your chances of being hit, but then the armor absorbs the damage. (Making touch attacks easier to manage)


OK, enough of my ramblings...











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Offline Peter R

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2014, 04:07:04 AM »
I have never really agreed with this idea but I do like the idea of players being more active in their defence. I am going to play test two changes in a new game starting in October.

1) defensive skills such as tumble evade will be rolled during the missile or melee phase if the character is attacked. This gives them a chance to actiely defend.
2) when parrying I will require a fumble check for every blow you attempt to parry but to balance the multiple chances to fumble, if the fumble check is OE up then you will get +10DB against that blow.

I don't like making highly significant changes to the rules or adding too many more dice rolls as that actually slows down the combat round even further which was one of the reasons for making defence active in the first place.
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Offline Malim

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2015, 10:49:16 AM »
GURPS have shield skill.
Shields there give PD to your BLOCK so you use it activly!
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Shields Block, Shields do not really Reduce damage Idea.
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2015, 10:54:26 AM »
GURPS have shield skill.
Shields there give PD to your BLOCK so you use it activly!

I have never played GURPS, to me PD stands for Physical Defence (as opposed to ED being Engergy Defence) from playing too much Champions in my mis-spent youth. What is PD in GURPS?
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