Author Topic: Counter magic strategies  (Read 6241 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2017, 03:11:02 PM »
In general, you don't need an interrupt type action to cast an instant spell as a defense vs a spell or attack, because the spell or attack will take multiple AP. So the attacker begins their attack/spell and if you use your own next AP to cast your instant spell, it will take effect before the attack/spell is completed.


Good point Jdale; I had not considered that because we use the simple round where we count down 4 AP at a time. But I can see how that would not be necessary with the 1 AP countdown.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2017, 11:21:19 AM »
The spells like Intuitions and Spell Anticipation or even Dreams will give your spell caster fore knowledge of their adversaries likely spells and tactics. This will allow you to have the right cancelling or spell reins style defence. A spell store can be then used to cast the defence as an instant spell.
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Offline Doridian

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2017, 10:56:05 AM »
A spell store can be then used to cast the defence as an instant spell.
I thought that a Store spell could be a solution, but it prevents the caster to cast any other spell in the meanwhile (I mean, while a spell is stored). At least I read it this way in RMSS SL. So it's not really different from putting it in opportunity or keep it alive by concentrating. Or, have I a blind spot?

Offline Peter R

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2017, 07:46:44 AM »
A spell store can be then used to cast the defence as an instant spell.
I thought that a Store spell could be a solution, but it prevents the caster to cast any other spell in the meanwhile (I mean, while a spell is stored). At least I read it this way in RMSS SL. So it's not really different from putting it in opportunity or keep it alive by concentrating. Or, have I a blind spot?
There are two options here.

1 the Arcane lists have more advanced spell store spells so the stored spell could be bypassed.
2 a more powerful caster could/should research their own defensive spells. So you take a lower level defensive spell and research a higher level version that is instant (thus the higher level).
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Offline Doridian

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2017, 09:28:28 AM »
There are two options here.

1 the Arcane lists have more advanced spell store spells so the stored spell could be bypassed.
2 a more powerful caster could/should research their own defensive spells. So you take a lower level defensive spell and research a higher level version that is instant (thus the higher level).
Ah, I see. Spell research is an unexplored territory (to me).
By the way, I have to rectify one previous assertion of mine. I wrote that in my gaming sessions "I've house ruled" to allow always instants in reaction to enemy actions. It's a plain mistake, as I meant "I'll house rule": as in all of the posts seems clear that there's no a true way to have a spell work as it can be seen in some movies (even in Star Wars, where the Jedi and Darth Vader were able to deflect objects on the spot while engaged in combat), I'm willing to experiment that rule. And it would combine well with spell research having normal spells researched as instants and, that way, able to be cast on the spot when needed.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2017, 11:18:28 AM »
in all of the posts seems clear that there's no a true way to have a spell work as it can be seen in some movies (even in Star Wars, where the Jedi and Darth Vader were able to deflect objects on the spot while engaged in combat)...

I think the rules do cover that one. A caster casting a Deflections spell is doing almost exactly what Vader does to deflect the shot at him. It is an instantaneous spell, so in RMU especially it would be easy to cast this at the start of the turn, costing 0 AP, and then the caster could fight normally.
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Offline Doridian

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2017, 09:22:15 AM »
I think the rules do cover that one. A caster casting a Deflections spell is doing almost exactly what Vader does to deflect the shot at him. It is an instantaneous spell, so in RMU especially it would be easy to cast this at the start of the turn, costing 0 AP, and then the caster could fight normally.
Mumble...
Two considerations.
I've got to admit that I overlooked this way of taking instants. At least in RMSS Spell Law page 6 a duration of "-" is described as: the effects of the spell required no duration and are applied immediately. So I'm not at ease to think that you can declare (and cast) a Bladeturn or Deflection spell at the beginning of a round and have its effects apply later when (and whether) an attack eventually comes in. But this is just my problem here: I'm not sure how should I use this kind of spells.

In one of my previous posts I didn't explain very well when I wrote that I would have expected "a comparable degree of choices and maneuvering as it happens with melee". What I was pointing to is the fact that RMSS gives the players three options for a melee action: Full Melee, Press and Melee, React and Melee. And, for example, the latter is there just to allow a player to have melee without having to declare in advance anything (albeit at a penalty). I'm more and more convinced that this kind of embroidery in the rules for spells is just what in the RMSS game development was left behind and now is somehow missing (and never will show up officially).

To mimic what I understand is now in RMU I would rule (in RMSS and, maybe, in RM2 too) that a Normal Spell Casting action entails declaring the action phase and the specific spell, consuming the declared action slot and percentage for the round economics; the effect, instead, is resolved when it makes sense during the same round, even in the middle of an opponent action (if it fits the purposes of the spell itself), but abiding by initiative requirements. So, giving an example for Bladeturn in RMSS: a Magician engaged in melee (poor him/her) may declare it as a Snap action (and should as it's an instant), consuming 10% of initiative; consequently the same Magician may declare a Full Melee Normal Action against the opponent at 90% with no penalties (-10 for the instant and +10 for the Full Melee) and with a stated OB/DB split. The Bladeturn spell will be cast (and resolved) when the opponent will try to strike the Magician, as if it were an instant in the Snap Phase. If the opponent has declared the attack as a Snap Action and has won the initiative, the Magician has been preempted: he/she will be able to parry with the DB portion of the OB/DB split, but the spell will not be yet in effect.

Maybe this kind of interpretation was just implicitly... implied by the RMSS rules. I would like they have written it clearly as they described the melee options. I would then expect to see at least another option, call it Reacting Spell Casting action: the same as a Normal Spell Casting action, it's reserved to instantaneous spell, but the specific spell has not to be declared in advance. It would entail a SCR (ESF) maneuver, maybe with a +10 bonus (if no SCR had otherwise been required; a -5 if a SCR were required for other reasons).

Still I think I'll experiment in allowing an instant spell to be cast after canceling actions, with s SCR (ESF) maneuver, without the +10 bonus above (and a -10 if a SCR were required for other reasons). 

I feel I'm starting to see the light...!  :)
Now, if I turn to spell defenses...

Offline Doridian

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2017, 09:44:51 AM »
P.S.: I think I'll not use any additional bonus to SCR (i.e. the +10, -5 and -10 ones) contrarily to what I wrote in the previous post.

Offline Majyk

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2017, 10:28:17 AM »
One note in RMFRP that may not be in RMSS for Bladeturn/Deflections spells is:
”SPECIAL NOTES
1) When casting a spell that can affect multiple targets, the caster can concentrate in order to hold the spell until it can be applied to the allowed number of targets.”

So this takes away from that Mage defender's full OB by -50%(-50) if casting BTII+/DeflII+.

For us, in an RMFRP campaign, the GM allows non-Instant Utility spells to be cast as Instant ones in later phases with the same (-20)Modifier that a Snap Action Phase Instant spell gets.
Not RMU, but if it helps with a for-instance example of true Darth Vader/Skywalker reactions that could be it.

The -20 stays around for further actions that round, and should, and one doesn't need to further house rule extended round actions or multiple spells allowed in one round. 
Just keep adding Concentration mods until expended or the spell is released before its due.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2017, 12:01:54 PM »
I'm not sure how you want to do it in RMSS/FRP, because I don't play that. But in RMU it is pretty simple.

The Deflections spell reads this:

"Caster can deflect any one missile that the caster can see and which passes within the 100' range of this spell; this causes 100 to be subtracted from the missile’s attack."

Over the years people on these forums have discussed this spell quite a bit, and there was an official clarification years ago (if I remember correctly) that the duration was only for the next round, but that the caster could apply it to any missile that targeted him over the course of that round. So I think RMU might clarify that by changing the wording to:

"Until the start of the caster's next turn, caster can deflect any one missile that the caster can see and which passes within the 100' range of this spell; this causes 100 to be subtracted from the missile’s attack."

This would then be quite simple, and very much like what Vader did. Since it is an instantaneous spell, it can be cast in the first action phase. I would also use my house rule that instantaneous actions that cost 0 AP can be cast anytime during the round (e.g. the instant someone targets the caster with an arrow, and the caster can see it); but that is just my own house rule.

In this case, the caster could cast the spell either at the beginning of Action Phase 1 or at any time when an opponent declares an attack. So long as the caster can see the missile, he could deflect it.

In RMU, then, this is very simple, and much like Vader's deflection.
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Offline Doridian

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2017, 02:46:03 AM »
One note in RMFRP that may not be in RMSS for Bladeturn/Deflections spells is:
”SPECIAL NOTES
1) When casting a spell that can affect multiple targets, the caster can concentrate in order to hold the spell until it can be applied to the allowed number of targets.”

So this takes away from that Mage defender's full OB by -50%(-50) if casting BTII+/DeflII+.

For us, in an RMFRP campaign, the GM allows non-Instant Utility spells to be cast as Instant ones in later phases with the same (-20)Modifier that a Snap Action Phase Instant spell gets.
Not RMU, but if it helps with a for-instance example of true Darth Vader/Skywalker reactions that could be it.

The -20 stays around for further actions that round, and should, and one doesn't need to further house rule extended round actions or multiple spells allowed in one round. 
Just keep adding Concentration mods until expended or the spell is released before its due.
I'm not sure it's a foot-note in the Spell list. For sure in RMSS it's a general rule in Spell Law (somewhere in chapter 7). Instead I would ask if in RMFRP minimal percentage for melee actions has been lifted. I ask this for two reasons. First, in RMSS you cannot React/Press Melee with less than 80% activity and you cannot Full Melee with less than 60% either. So I would understand that you should not be able to keep concentrating on a spell (50% activity, not counting the 10% activity for the instantaneous spell itself) and, at the same time, be able to melee. Second, on the other hand, in the School of Hard Knocks there are modifiers for OB to be used in melee when in the same round you maneuver (move, ride, etc.): I wonder if those further penalties to melee (other than those intrinsic to spent activity %) derive from a difference in the round tactical activity rules in RMFRP.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2017, 12:44:09 PM »
Perhaps they can take a page out of the D&D 5E book (boy, it seems very weird to say something like that) and have some spells have the following wording (or something to this effect):

In reaction to an (attack/spell being cast/other type action/etc.) this spell can be cast by the character as an instantaneous action. In the case of Bladeturn and/or Deflections, the attacks will trigger the possible reaction-casting.

I think that something like this is important because, as I have found out over the years players tend to be more reactionary than proactive. Now, I would like them to be more proactive, but the fact is they cannot predict everything (heck, most of us cannot predict 5% of what an enemy in an RPG might do with all the magic, technology, and other things possible) and a certain action occurring might get them to remember something they can do. (I have seen that happen tons of times.) Of course, this should not necessarily allow them to break another rule of the number of spells castable per round, or whatever.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2017, 04:11:34 PM »
Yes, I think something like that would open some new tactical opportunities. A couple of things to note though:

--I suggested changing/clarifying the general rule for Instantaneous Actions (i.e. they can be cast as interrupts or reactions) rather than just rewording specific individual spells, because I think the new AP system in RMU needs to give characters a fair and realistic chance to react to other characters' actions. There are other spells and other actions as well that could work this way: use a shield in melee, for example, is currently an instantaneous action, but since the game does not specify that instantaneous actions can be taken anytime (such as on an opponent's turn), players might not think that a character could for example declare shield use on an attacker that was hidden at the start of the round (when declarations were made), and so could not be declared the target of shield use, but had then walked through a door and down a hall on say Action Phase 2. In cases like that, I want characters to have a chance to react reasonably to dynamic circumstances: I want the character who is standing at the end of the hall, and sees the enemy walk through the door and down the hall towards him, to be able to declare shield use against that enemy. So it seems to me that you need a category of actions like this that can be taken at any time during the round.

--Nomenclature is important here, both for clarity's sake and because certain words have been used in games that players will often have played before they come to Rolemaster. I would then term instantaneous actions that happen before the triggering action as 'interrupts', and actions that happen after the triggering action as 'reactions'. This was how DnD 4e defined them, and Magic: The Gathering too has the category of 'interrupts/instant' actions that work in the same way. Keeping the nomenclature consistent will help players who have played those games to easily grasp their function in Rolemaster.

Dungeons and Dragons also clarified this further by calling both interrupts and reactions 'immediate' actions, because they could be taken as 'immediate' responses to a trigger. So interrupts were technically 'immediate interrupts', and reactions were 'immediate reactions'. 
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Offline jdale

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2017, 04:49:10 PM »
In RMU, applying shield DB or parry DB against an attack isn't an action. In the case of parry, you need to be making an attack but you can declare it as it happens. In the case of a shield, you have a limit on how many people you can apply your shield against but you can do that when they attack you. So this discussion about interrupts would only be relevant for instant spells, and generally will only matter if you are not going phase by phase through the round.

(The other instant actions are dropping items and -50 perception checks. Also quick draw. As a GM, I wouldn't let someone do a perception check as an interrupt, there's no point is disrupting the flow since they can't act on the information anyway until their turn. Quick draw is not really relevant since you need to actually start an attack to do anything meaningful with the weapon in your hand. There are some odd circumstances where dropping things outside your turn might be useful. E.g. my PC has some grenade-like magic items that are triggered by impact and it might be useful to use one immediately when an opponent comes into range before they start an attack.)

In RMSS/RMFRP, it's a bit different because you are declaring your round's actions at the beginning of the round. RMFRP and RMSS are identical here so, in response to Doridian's question, you are correct that you can't Concentrate on a spell while attacking (unless you have more than 100% activity).


As for bladeturn/deflections...

In both RMU and RMSS, you can concentrate to hold a Bladeturn/Deflections until you have used it against the full number of targets. The footnote for Bladeturn in RMSS says "When casting a spell that can affect multiple targets, the caster can concentrate in order to hold the spell until it can be applied to the allowed number of targets." It's also in 7.1.16 on page 230. There's similar text in RMU.

What's perhaps a little unclear is when do you have to start concentrating. Do you have to concentrate in the round the spell is cast, or do you only have to do so in subsequent rounds? RMSS doesn't address this, suggesting you might have to concentrate immediately. RMU in the current draft of Spell Law (not in beta2) adds the text "Targets may be freely assigned during the round of casting, once the spell is cast. Concentration is required to carry any unused targeting forward into additional rounds." So that means you don't need to concentrate during the casting round to apply it against however many attacks, you only have to start concentrating in subsequent rounds if you haven't already used it up. This may have always been the intent (even in RMSS).

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2017, 10:05:46 PM »
In RMU, applying shield DB or parry DB against an attack isn't an action.

The beta2 version says it is. On p. 102 (104 of the .pdf) this is spelled out explicitly:

"Using a shield is treated as an instantaneous action (0 Action Points for the first foe, 1 AP each foe thereafter)."

Quote
So this discussion about interrupts would only be relevant for instant spells, and generally will only matter if you are not going phase by phase through the round.

(The other instant actions are dropping items and -50 perception checks. Also quick draw. As a GM, I wouldn't let someone do a perception check as an interrupt, there's no point is disrupting the flow since they can't act on the information anyway until their turn. Quick draw is not really relevant since you need to actually start an attack to do anything meaningful with the weapon in your hand. There are some odd circumstances where dropping things outside your turn might be useful. E.g. my PC has some grenade-like magic items that are triggered by impact and it might be useful to use one immediately when an opponent comes into range before they start an attack.)

I think you just argued against your own statement there. You said it would only be relevant for instant spells, but then enumerated instances where it would also be relevant for other 'instantaneous actions'. Quickdraw for example would indeed be relevant if you were trying to declare parry against an attack: having a weapon out would allow you to parry, whereas not having one out might mean you couldn't. Perception too would be highly relevant if someone were sneaking up to ambush you. There are multiple other instances I can think of where the precise sequence of actions could mean the difference between life and death.

And although this is more of a problem if you are not going phase by phase, but rather resolving each character's entire actions for the round one by one, it is still a problem that needs to be solved if the option of resolving actions in this way (i.e. not phase by phase) is an option.

Quote
As for bladeturn/deflections...

In both RMU and RMSS, you can concentrate to hold a Bladeturn/Deflections until you have used it against the full number of targets. The footnote for Bladeturn in RMSS says "When casting a spell that can affect multiple targets, the caster can concentrate in order to hold the spell until it can be applied to the allowed number of targets." It's also in 7.1.16 on page 230. There's similar text in RMU.

What's perhaps a little unclear is when do you have to start concentrating. Do you have to concentrate in the round the spell is cast, or do you only have to do so in subsequent rounds? RMSS doesn't address this, suggesting you might have to concentrate immediately. RMU in the current draft of Spell Law (not in beta2) adds the text "Targets may be freely assigned during the round of casting, once the spell is cast. Concentration is required to carry any unused targeting forward into additional rounds." So that means you don't need to concentrate during the casting round to apply it against however many attacks, you only have to start concentrating in subsequent rounds if you haven't already used it up. This may have always been the intent (even in RMSS).

That sounds reasonable for Bladeturn and Deflections.

You might also consider taking a page out of DnD's book and add a category of 'free actions' that always cost 0 AP (alongside RMU's existing category of 'instantaneous' actions that cost 0 AP for the first action in the round and 1 AP after that). It's an easy addition that clarifies that by 'freely assign' you mean 'take a free action' to assign.

This would allow you to clarify the difference between shield use (which you seem to want to make a free action, but which according to the text in the rules right now is an instantaneous action) and instantaneous actions like instant spells.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2017, 10:41:06 PM »
On further reflection, I would further disagree that this discussion would only be relevant if you are not going phase by phase. Here's an example where it would matter even if there is a phase by phase countdown:

--My Magician is looking down a well lit hallway with a T junction at the end. She is alert, but at the beginning of the round, no enemies are visible; so she declares she will drink a potion of healing and then start walking down the hallway. On action phase 3, however, the orc archer who was 10' down one of the side passages moves into view and fires. This is on the Orc's initiative, in action phase 3. If my Magician can't cast Deflections on an enemy's turn, then she can't cast Deflections at all, because right now it is the Orc's turn; the Orc will be able to shoot the arrow and my Magician will die, even though the Orc is instantly visible to my Magician, and she sees him coming.

Here I think you can see how you have to give characters a chance to react reasonably to enemy actions.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2017, 11:53:54 PM »
In RMU, applying shield DB or parry DB against an attack isn't an action.

The beta2 version says it is. On p. 102 (104 of the .pdf) this is spelled out explicitly:

"Using a shield is treated as an instantaneous action (0 Action Points for the first foe, 1 AP each foe thereafter)."

Sorry, you're correct for beta2, but that's something that's changing. Previously noted here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17150.msg209467#msg209467   I should have mentioned it was a change though.


For the instant actions as interrupts, let me say this again in brief:

0 AP Perception: you can't act on the information anyway, it just disrupts the flow of play, better not to allow it.
0 AP Quickdraw: you can't declare parry unless you've spent at least 1 AP on an attack action, so it doesn't make any difference whether you are able to instantly pull your weapon as an interrupt or not.
0 AP Drop Item: there are some edge cases where it might be useful to drop things as an interrupt, but it's not at all clear that it's good for the game that you can do so. If do you want to have something ready to drop as an interrupt ("if you take one step forward..."), you can use a conditional action.
0 AP Deflections/Bladeturn when surprised: it certainly makes a difference and I said so http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17914.msg216717#msg216717 but I also said that when someone catches you completely by surprise, it makes sense that you shouldn't have time to get the spell off. If you have at least 1 AP of action before it happens, that's sufficient to cast your spell; if you don't even have 1 AP to respond, you are essentially surprised (or at least unprepared).


And, again, it might make sense to handle these differently if you are not going phase by phase.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2017, 11:39:06 AM »
In RMU, applying shield DB or parry DB against an attack isn't an action.

The beta2 version says it is. On p. 102 (104 of the .pdf) this is spelled out explicitly:

"Using a shield is treated as an instantaneous action (0 Action Points for the first foe, 1 AP each foe thereafter)."

Sorry, you're correct for beta2, but that's something that's changing. Previously noted here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17150.msg209467#msg209467   I should have mentioned it was a change though.

Ok, that's good; sorry I forgot about that discussion we had (it was a year ago!).

The rule itself seems fine, but why not codify it to make it more clear? That is to say, you seem to have a category of 'free actions' which are actions that always only cost 0 AP; you're just not saying it explicitly, and rather than having it as a general rule, you are making specific exceptions. So why not do what DnD did, and codify this into a general rule -- i.e. a category of 'free actions' that always cost 0 AP? Then in the action cost chart in Arms Law, you just list this and any other free actions as a 'free action', and have a note clarifying that free actions cost 0 AP. This system will be instantly recognizable to DnD players. DnD lists several actions that are free actions (including drop an item and speaking), and you might want these to be free in Rolemaster too:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Free_Actions

You've already got the basics in place of this system now, it is just that you are doing it piecemeal with individual special rules; so why not just codify it?

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0 AP Perception: you can't act on the information anyway, it just disrupts the flow of play, better not to allow it.

You many not be able to act on the information, but that information will determine whether or not you are surprised or flatfooted, whether the attacker can use Ambush, etc. That information could mean the difference between life and death. Note that my Magician sees the Orc; she is not surprised by it. She just can't act because it is not her initiative. In a case like that, you have to give her a reasonable chance to defend herself, because you're trying to model real-time combat in a turn-based system. You have to give her a fair chance to react on an opponent's turn, or else you will have players gaming the system by just waiting until one player declares an action, then charging in and attacking them when they can't defend themselves.

In fact, in Dungeons and Dragons, one could act on this information by saying, 'Look out! There's an orc!' This is because talking is a free action. Can you not do this in RMU?

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0 AP Quickdraw: you can't declare parry unless you've spent at least 1 AP on an attack action, so it doesn't make any difference whether you are able to instantly pull your weapon as an interrupt or not.

I think that extra rule is going to be problematic, because characters won't have a fair chance to react to changing circumstances. In my example above, if the Orc had been using a sword rather than bow and my magician had her staff out, then this rule would mean she could not attempt to parry the orc's attack at all? That seems unfair to her: she was not surprised by the Orc at all: she saw him coming down the well lit hall. But the system is treating her as if she were surprised.

It would be better I think to say that declaring shield use and declaring parry is simply a 'Free Action' that costs 0 AP. They you can specify that the parryer must also declare an attack action.

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0 AP Drop Item: there are some edge cases where it might be useful to drop things as an interrupt, but it's not at all clear that it's good for the game that you can do so. If do you want to have something ready to drop as an interrupt ("if you take one step forward..."), you can use a conditional action.

Again, DnD went through this problem extensively, and RMU already says that dropping an item is a 0 AP action. Why not just say dropping an item is a 'free action', like DnD does?

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0 AP Deflections/Bladeturn when surprised: it certainly makes a difference and I said so http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17914.msg216717#msg216717 but I also said that when someone catches you completely by surprise, it makes sense that you shouldn't have time to get the spell off. If you have at least 1 AP of action before it happens, that's sufficient to cast your spell; if you don't even have 1 AP to respond, you are essentially surprised (or at least unprepared).

But she's not surprised, and it is arguable whether or not she is unprepared. However, the game is treating her worse. The surprise rules on p. 86 note that if a character is not expecting combat, but is aware of the attacker's presence, then the only penalty she gets is a -20 to initiative. Here, though, my character is actually not only aware of the attacker's presence but expecting combat; yet instead of a -20 to initiative, she is prevented altogether from parrying or casting a spell until the orc's attack is resolved.

Do you see how harsh that is? It is an effect of not allowing characters a reasonable chance to react to real time movement in a turn-based environment. This is why DnD has categories of 'reactions' and 'free actions', so that characters are not screwed by the turn-based rules. If you don't allow reactions, then players will figure out pretty quickly how to game the system by waiting till the last minute to attack, and then attacking enemies who are made defenseless by the system's lack of reaction abilities.

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And, again, it might make sense to handle these differently if you are not going phase by phase.

Perhaps I was mistaken, but doesn't RMU offer the option of going to a 4 AP action count? You seem to be saying that this will be a problem only if you use the 4 AP count; why isn't that a problem for you then? I would expect that if there was a problem with any option RMU offers, then that is a problem that needs to be addressed.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2017, 04:43:55 PM »
A couple of further considerations:

--You might not need any special 'surprise' rules if the core mechanics are sound. Right now, the rules state that if a combatant was not aware of an enemy, then that combatant can't act at all for the first round of combat, and additionally that that combatant is 'flatfooted' (other characters get +60 to hit him). That is one way to handle surprise, but it is a special rule (therefore extra rules), and players might see it as a bit punitive if they can't even talk for five long seconds, while opponents get a special (and somewhat undefined) +60 bonus to attack them that round.

I think there is a simpler way to handle surprise, and that the core mechanics can already handle surprise without resorting to special rules at all. The way you really 'surprise' another group is by having bows and spells readied (using the existing rules for conditional actions), by being able to attack from an advantageous angle by picking the direction of attack, and I would add by benefiting from the fact that the opponent can't use quickness DB because s/he can't see the attack coming (that last part would be my own houserule).

Note that those advantages are more than enough to represent surprise; you don't need an extra category of 'flatfooted' giving +60 to an attack, nor do you need special rules about defenders not being able to act for an entire round. The attackers then get the benefit of being able to hold a conditional attack (thus unloading it all in the first Action Phase, and acting normally after that), being able to attack from a good angle (e.g. not through a shielded side), and being able to attack foes who can't use quickness DB because they can't see the attack coming. That's more than enough of an advantage; you don't need special 'flatfooted' rules or anything extra on top of it.

--In my example above, I would like to give my magician a 0 AP quick perception roll to see if she spots the Orc. I would make this perception roll follow the normal rules for actions: -50 due to spending 2 less AP than normally required for a perception. She should get at least a chance to see the Orc who is rushing towards her. If instantaneous actions can be taken on an enemy's turn, as I am suggesting, then if she succeeds at the perception, she will be able get up a Deflections before the arrow arrives. If she fails, then she didn't have time to get the spell off... in other words, she was 'surprised'. But note here that the core mechanics are taking care of surprise fully; you don't need extra rules for it and extra categories and modifiers like 'flatfooted'.



'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Counter magic strategies
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2017, 11:59:23 PM »
The reason to have a flat-footed bonus is because not everyone has a quickness bonus and you need to have the surprise be able to affect them, as well. I like the idea that you keep everything the same, but get the flat-footed bonus, that way you model a difference between those with negative quickness modifiers all the way through those with very high ones. Otherwise, I like the idea of the perception test helping determine surprise - heck, I like it to help determine initiative too. (That should not be all down to pure quickness.)

Having some sort of reaction type action is needed to help smooth out the bumpy bits of the turn-based combat system. (Hey! You had your crossbow out and ready to fire? Who cares? You got 1 point lower in initiative than the orc who has to move 30 feet to attack you with it's axe. [Forgive me if this type of situation has already been addressed, I haven't followed the RMU development much lately. Mostly because I have come to believe that it will never actually get done and put out. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't think so.])
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