Author Topic: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?  (Read 2194 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« on: March 29, 2017, 01:37:53 PM »
Okay, so surprise is something that doesn't seem particularly well handled in RM (at least compared to what I'm familiar with).

In the phased combat system, as I understand surprise, it merely gives opponents a bonus to attacks (since combat is abstract and long). What about spell casting and instantaneous spells? Can you still throw them out if you are surprised? What if the surprising action occurs after the spellcasting phase?


Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 11:29:57 PM »
For us, surprise means you didn't see it coming and a defensive instantaneous spell does you no good if you don't realize you need to use it.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 01:47:23 AM »
That makes sense, but It doesn't seem to follow from how melee characters are treated (they can still parry as much as they want without penalty).

Also what about instant offensive spells?

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Offline vector

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 10:14:43 AM »
There is also a penalty to initiative rolls, -4. And...

From RMSS Core rules page #76:
"If a character is surprised, a GM may limit his activity for his first round of reaction. We suggest a GM allow a surprised character to take only one deliberate action. The actual % activity allowed should range from 0-100% based upon an orientation roll (see Section 21.4)."

A bad orientation roll could leave one without the percentage of activity to draw a weapon, find cover, or attack, or parry with much effectiveness.

So, melee characters cannot "still parry as much as they want without penalty".


Offline Hurin

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 11:12:18 AM »
If it might be helpful, we could note that RMU introduces the 'flatfooted' penalty along with its surprise rules, though surprised and flatfooted mean slightly different things. Attacking a surprised foe grants a +25 to the attacker, though surprised foes still get Quickness bonus to the DB. Attacking a 'flatfooted' foe grants a +60 to the attacker, representing both surprise (+25) and the ability to attack the foe from an advantageous angle (+35); flatfooted foes also do not get the quickness bonus added to their DB.

So RMU seems to have two levels of surprise: vanilla surprise, when you are not expecting an attack but still able to partly defend yourself at the last minute; and entirely defenceless when you don't see the attack coming at all.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 12:27:21 PM »
Yeah while those are interesting solutions, they don't help with the phased combat round. Though I will admit the more I read about it the more I think adopting RMU might be a good idea.

Regardless is there anything official for phased combat?

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Offline vector

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2017, 12:49:40 PM »
Regardless is there anything official for phased combat?

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I'm a bit confused. Are you referring to a Rolemaster,  Second Edition combat round?

In RMSS the rules state that a GM may limit a surprised character's activity for the first round. A surprised character can only make a single Deliberate Phase action, the percentage of action allowed being limited to an Orientation roll.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 12:52:36 PM »
Well, really any RM game with phased combat: RM2, Classic, Spacemaster, Merp, etc

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Offline providence13

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 12:55:26 PM »
SoHK, pg 110
Situational Awareness:
It's possible for both sides could surprise each other..
Your orientation (aka maneuver) roll = %Act available to you for that rnd.
The way I read it.. That same roll is your maneuver. Near and Partial success means you can act in the Normal Phase.
Failure means you can act during the Deliberate Phase.
Success means you can act in any Phase.
(And I agree that you'd still need enough %Act for a melee attack (60-100) for parry.

For my games, Instant spells are just that; Instant. They require 10%Act and might interrupt what you've already declared for that rnd/phase, but you can throw them any time. They don't have to be declared, etc. Other GM's will/may read it differently. Your game may vary.
Hope that helps.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 01:21:29 PM »
I use phased rounds almost exclusively no matter which RM version I'm using, and in surprise situations the group with surprise always gets to act first. That's in addition to any penalties given by the charts. Don't know if that's 'official' or not...I never honestly cared.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2017, 07:03:49 PM »
That makes sense, but It doesn't seem to follow from how melee characters are treated (they can still parry as much as they want without penalty).
Not sure I follow here. You can parry with as much OB you have, sacrificing that OB, on whoever you have declared as your target for attacks.  So, not only would you not be able to parry something you don't see coming, but since you didn't see them you couldn't declare them as a target, so you couldn't parry them anyhow.

Quote
Also what about instant offensive spells?
I guess once you've been struck and know someone is there to cast it at I'd say that's fine, but it would happen after you've been surprised.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2017, 09:20:40 PM »

Quote
Also what about instant offensive spells?
I guess once you've been struck and know someone is there to cast it at I'd say that's fine, but it would happen after you've been surprised.
[/quote]
Yes.
I didn't mean that surprised Mages can still throw a Deflections, or anything. They aren't even looking in that direction until the maneuver says that they can act.

Tywyl,
I hope some of this helps.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 09:02:54 AM »
I use phased rounds almost exclusively no matter which RM version I'm using, and in surprise situations the group with surprise always gets to act first. That's in addition to any penalties given by the charts. Don't know if that's 'official' or not...I never honestly cared.

Okay, but how does that work?
A (archer/melee) surprises B(caster)
Then you go to phases
Magic-can B cast their defensive spell or not since A hasn't had a chance to shoot/stab them?
Missile-A attacks or
Move
Melee-A attacks

Even if you allow A to attack, their action doesn't come until AFTER the spellcasting phase. So how does that work?

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2017, 01:16:50 PM »
Archer in RM2 is Missile Phase, not Melee. If it's a surprise from distant ambush, I usually jump to the phase in which the action occurs. That means the caster wouldn't be acting, or could act after the missile attack (assuming they survive).
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2017, 11:23:56 AM »
Well, really any RM game with phased combat: RM2, Classic, Spacemaster, Merp, etc

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RM Classic does not have the phased combat. It uses percentage action.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2017, 02:38:21 PM »
Well, really any RM game with phased combat: RM2, Classic, Spacemaster, Merp, etc

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RM Classic does not have the phased combat. It uses percentage action.
Phased combat wad a free pdf for classic.

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Offline Peter R

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Re: Surprise...Instant Spells...Phased Combat?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2017, 08:10:40 AM »
Well, really any RM game with phased combat: RM2, Classic, Spacemaster, Merp, etc

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RM Classic does not have the phased combat. It uses percentage action.
Phased combat wad a free pdf for classic.

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In that case I would suggest that if the victim was surprised in the missile, melee or movement phase of the first combat round then the spell phase has already passed so the spell caster has missed their opportunity. They cannot cast a spell until the next spell phase at the start of round 2.
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