Author Topic: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists  (Read 5416 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« on: March 01, 2017, 03:02:50 AM »
So, though I have all the companions and have for years, I have rarely been able to play much with them. I have heard anecdotally that many of the later classes and lists are broken. I was wondering if people could tell me which were the most broken and why you feel that way. I am looking to start up a game and want to know what to avoid.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2017, 07:07:19 AM »
From my POV, nothing is really "broken" and it's unrealistic to ever consider that. Are guns broken? Well, indeed, compared to swords and arrows, they are. Yet they came into existence and use. Are nuclear weapons broken? Probably. Didn't prevent them from existing, though. In fact, any new creation can be broken compared to former ones: it's called progress.
So, are some spells and professions more powerful than others? Probably. Though, it also depends on the context: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king after all. In the end, people adapt to everything: an invisible flying mage throwing fireballs may be powerful... the first few years. But after some time, not only would there be so many of them running (well, flying) around, having one in one's army wouldn't give such an edge, countermeasures would have been developed and anti-air devices (i.e. magic items) able to detect invisible would be widespread as well. After all, if profession X is so much better than the others, then every rich family will push one of their heirs to become one... And if SuperWarriorClass is way better than any other fighter class, then after some time, anyone able to become a SuperWarriorClass will be one, so being a SuperWarriorClass wouldn't give a party such an edge, as most other party would have a couple of SuperWarriorClass members as well!

So, keep in mind I'll talk about the case where the profession or spell list is still relatively new, scarce and not widespread.

Anyway, so, the professions I consider the most powerful are:
* in second the Sage (RoCo. II) because, well, he can pretty much read anything written in a flash (just turning the pages), deduce (correlate) about any fact, has a permanent +20 to ME and RE (yes, the closed mentalism spell list "Mind mastery" gives a +50 bonus but they are active spells with a duration that need to cast whereas the Sage's spells are subconscious spells that don't use any power point and have a constant duration; in other words, cast it once, subconsciously and without spending PPs to boot, and, there, constant effect giving +20 to ME and RS!) and are incredibly proficient to anything that involves speaking (therefore manipulating people and whole crowds; I mean, +75 to public speaking where the Sage has already a +3 profession bonus and a low cost of 1/4!) So, what, you upset the puny Sage because you're a strong fighter. Sure, wait for him to take ten minutes to persuade the whole city you're THE one to be killed, including everyone in the nobility and clergy! Not to mention to deduce your every move from just a few pieces of information. And since he's using, you know, skills, there are no RRs: it's just a matter of him rolling high... which isn't very hard. Come on, the powerful fighter can kill a guy in one blow? The powerful magician can kill a dozen in one spell? This guy can start a civil war or a holy war in one speech! And yet...
* the absolutely most powerful: the Enchanter from RoCo IV. Because he has the manipulative talent of the Sage, but does so from the shadows, using illusions, deceptions, etc. The Sage knows how to speak; the Enchanter knows how to speak and socially act, including and foremost through seduction. He's the power behind the throne, using skills and spells to hide his true self, create illusions to deceive others, manipulate and control through mental control, charm spells and actual seduction, being able to learn people's secrets to better manipulate them, with the combat abilities the Sage lacks (through the Command Words list... though not many would even think to be aggressive in his presence, anyway, as he has knowledge of the Calm Spirits list). So, sure, the powerful fighter or mage may be able to fight armies, this guy may raise an empire... and hire the aforementioned fighter and mage, or merely manipulate them to do his biddings.
* special mention to the Theocratist from the Alc.C. because it's a minor, not quite widespread companion. Aside the fact his Bless spells can grant bonuses up to +70 at level 20 (+70!!!), he's a religious equivalent to the Sage/Enchanter as being a crowd and personal manipulative type (up to +30 to propaganda, public speaking and seduction after all) and the incredibly powerful ability to convert anyone to his religious views with just a one-minute "sermon" (at level 20)!

There, the classes I think any GM should keep very rare, since those guys can start whole (civil / holy) wars quite easily. With tactics an academic skill and leadership a social skill, the Theocratist and especially the Enchanter may even become great military leaders whereas the Sage may be a great tactician, being able to read the every moves of the enemy, leading them to be great conquerers and empire-builders.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2017, 07:23:53 AM »
*ooopppppsssss* Wrong move.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2017, 08:02:27 AM »
Our group had all of the Companions as well and as the books progressed and we didn't use much content from them, many were for higher powered PCs, Level 50's, Lord Classes, and such, so that needs to be kept in consideration.  As followers of the game system had been playing for years, they were hungry for stronger, more powerful fun-stuffs to utilize and those companions provided that content.

With our group, and in a couple of other threads I've seen on the board, the Sleuth was pretty powerful.  We only had one player make one and he quickly outpaced the group in terms of abilities, spells, and XP.  It's possible the GM wasn't prepared to have a Sleuth in the party and the sessions were just easier for the Sleuth character.  If the GM had more preparation and was able to work with the abilities of the Sleuth, the sessions would have been more challenging and maybe more balanced for all of us.

The character types I've had challenges with are the Adrenal users, but those are skills that gave me the challenge, not so much the character type.  We had some powerful elemental mages, but even with that great power, there were plenty of balances; one  was a glass canon, and for some silly reason, he seemed to be the plaything of the gaming gods.  I have never in my life seen a player fumble so many rolls at the most crucial of times through an entire campaign.

You should definitely keep an eye on which optional rules you'll allow and which skills are allowed.  We had a couple of monk classes take adrenal speed and weapon kata and they were mowing through enemies.

Preparation is your best tool to balance what may be considered "broken."  For the GM who wasn't prepared for a Sleuth PC, in his defense we made up PCs that night before starting the session, so the GM didn't know what any of us would be using for that campaign.  At level 1, the spell user would have at most 4 spell lists (and precious few DP for any other skills), not too many PPs, and it will most likely take 3 rounds to cast anyway.  As your campaign progresses and the PCs gain XP and levels, you can make adjustments as you advance your campaign so you can still maintain decent balance as your players get more power and skills.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2017, 08:37:05 AM »
Keep in mind that most (if not all) of the Professions in Companions were the product of a specific campaign or gaming group. You need to review them carefully before allowing them, and make sure that what the Profession was tailored for actually works in your game.

We had the majority of the Companions and, frankly, didn't use much after RoCo III (and what we did use was modified to suit the setting). To use the Sleuth as an example, I outlined how I managed that Profession here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17735.msg214996#msg214996.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 11:04:56 AM »
Interesting. I had heard that things like the Crystal Mage, Necromancer, and a few others were specifically egregious problems.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2017, 11:24:58 AM »
I have seen some posters on these forums say they had problems with the Warrior Mage, who can wear armor, is good with weapons, and has spells to boot (especially the utility spells like fly, invisibility, etc.). The Warrior Mage was never a problem in our games, however: they are so strapped for development points not only because they are semis but also because they have to pay extra for things like Transcend Armor. They look like they can do everything, but at low levels at least (which is where our campaigns begin and we rarely get to 10th), they really can't due to development point costs.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 05:01:29 AM »
Interesting. I had heard that things like the Crystal Mage, Necromancer, and a few others were specifically egregious problems.
Yet, some others found out the basic Evil Cleric would be more effective…

I have seen some posters on these forums say they had problems with the Warrior Mage, who can wear armor, is good with weapons, and has spells to boot (especially the utility spells like fly, invisibility, etc.). The Warrior Mage was never a problem in our games, however: they are so strapped for development points not only because they are semis but also because they have to pay extra for things like Transcend Armor. They look like they can do everything, but at low levels at least (which is where our campaigns begin and we rarely get to 10th), they really can't due to development point costs.
Indeed, as I proved here and here.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 10:41:08 AM »
Indeed, as I proved here and here.

Yes, that's a very good way of explaining it.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Pazuzu

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2017, 01:29:34 PM »
High Warrior Monk from RoCo I.

Because a regular Warrior Monk didn't kick enough butt apparently.

So let's make him devoid of all the mental and focus training just to give him super cheap martial arts and even weapon skills.

Nope. Not abused at all. Just ignore that smell of Velveeta.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 03:23:55 PM »
High Warrior Monk from RoCo I.

Because a regular Warrior Monk didn't kick enough butt apparently.

So let's make him devoid of all the mental and focus training just to give him super cheap martial arts and even weapon skills.

Nope. Not abused at all. Just ignore that smell of Velveeta.

To be fair, though, the thing that made him necessary was the rank system of martial arts, whereby one had to buy four separate ranks in each martial art to be fully fluent in it. The original Warrior Monk thus had to pay 16 Dev points (cost of 1/3 x 4 ranks) to be fully fluent in his main weapon, compared to a Fighter who paid 6. The High Warrior Monk got a discount, having to only pay 12... but that was still pretty expensive in the grand scheme of things.

What made the High W. Monk especially powerful IMHO were all the extras he got from martial arts, like katas and multiattack abilities, together with Adrenal Defense and the fact that AT 1 was OP in the attack charts. Still, I don't think we ever had a High W. Monk who wrecked the game or anything.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Peter R

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2017, 04:05:32 PM »
What seemed to break things more was not the professions but the optional rule creep. I have played in several games where option rules were used to make spell lists cheaper to learn, gave more power points and made one directed spell skill applicable to all directed spells. Under those conditions professions like warrior mage do become exceedingly powerful as it takes away most of the DP burden from them.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2017, 05:41:03 PM »
I can definitely think of a few additional optional rules that did threaten to break the game, like the Stunned Maneuvering skill, the option of removing casting penalties for metal armor Channeling users, high stat abilities, etc.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline vector

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2017, 05:53:16 PM »
I can definitely think of a few additional optional rules that did threaten to break the game, like the Stunned Maneuvering skill, the option of removing casting penalties for metal armor Channeling users, high stat abilities, etc.

Ah, High Stat abilities, from Rolemaster Companion III I think. I ran an epic campaign long ago were each character was the chosen champion of one of the good gods. Each got to have a 110 in one relevant stat.

Those were some bad muthas! I certainly wouldn't use those high stat rules for any of my other, "normal" games.

Still, never had a hard time challenging them. "There's always something more cleverer than yourself!"

Offline Hurin

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2017, 10:47:55 PM »
Yeah, they were some bad mofos. They made sense for a Mythic Greece campaign where we were playing legendary heroes. But otherwise some of them were ridiculously overpowered.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline vector

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2017, 12:23:15 PM »
Yeah, they were some bad mofos. They made sense for a Mythic Greece campaign where we were playing legendary heroes. But otherwise some of them were ridiculously overpowered.

Hey, you want ridiculously overpowered? Do you happen to have a copy of Lords of Middle Earth Vol. 1?

Offline Hurin

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2017, 01:05:38 PM »
Yeah, they were some bad mofos. They made sense for a Mythic Greece campaign where we were playing legendary heroes. But otherwise some of them were ridiculously overpowered.

Hey, you want ridiculously overpowered? Do you happen to have a copy of Lords of Middle Earth Vol. 1?


I do. Tons of OP characters there... except for Hurin of course. He is totally fine.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Majyk

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2017, 09:12:58 PM »
Agreed for combos vs any particular class/spell.

Adrenal Skills abuse, where limits of prep rounds or limits of being able to use them on consecutive rounds is what breaks many games for GMs.

As said above, allow everything you and a player wishes with the caveat that it can get tweaked if "power creep" is seen.
Not everything scales perfectly.

After that - enjoy those Companions!
I used a tonne of stuff I and my group liked, including devising a way where Stat Bonii from Background Options(RMC I) would invisibly inflate the Temporary Stat so one could get a 102-105ish ability power from RMC III!

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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2017, 08:34:31 AM »
What seemed to break things more was not the professions but the optional rule creep. I have played in several games where option rules were used to make spell lists cheaper to learn, gave more power points and made one directed spell skill applicable to all directed spells. Under those conditions professions like warrior mage do become exceedingly powerful as it takes away most of the DP burden from them.

This was my experience and opinion as well. I never had an issue with Channelers of certain Professions being able to cast in metal armor simply because of how the gods worked in my setting. They were quite involved, and if a character transgressed the rules and codes of his or her order (be it priestly or paladin), BOOM no more casting ability until they undertook penance.

Rules only break games if GMs let them. This is especially true for optional rules. I never worried about Professions like High Warrior Monk because I broke up profession availability by cultures in my world, and the only one that produced HWMs was very difficult to get (my players also rolled for origin before creating their characters).
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Offline Malim

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Re: Most abusive RM2 classes/spell lists
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2017, 11:23:47 AM »
Chaotic warrior!!!!
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)