Author Topic: New item and similar skills  (Read 2035 times)

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Offline Yasha

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New item and similar skills
« on: July 07, 2017, 06:36:31 AM »
Hi all,

Despite numerous RM2 games and a soon 20 yo campaign, there's a question we just met, and though knowing every rule and option, our dozen fanatic players and GMs couldn't agree on this easy spot :

Our young Warrior Mage (you know, this player...) (those younglings have no respect for their parents !) maintains that, since the epic Broadsword he just found is similar to his Elvish Katana based sword, he shall be able to start raising ranks in it based on his 1HE skill ranks, not from scratch. (Katana is obviously one edged blade and broadsword two edged but whatever, it's written in the book !)

Our jaws dropped, as we realised we'd NEVER used the similarity option, out of the straight use of whatever weapon we could find around in some situations. Broadsword is just the generic blade we've been messing around with, we'd replace an axe with another one, and that's it. When it's about whatever similar skill, we use to refer to 13.1.1 ChL&CaL, except we base on half ranks.

So our soon-to-be-disinherited W/M has 14 ranks in Katana, a 58 skill. He wants to start investing in his Broadsword on a 35 basis (half ranks so 7 "5"), since he could use those 7 ranks to manipulate his BS anyway. Sounds correct, but is it ?

THEN we suspect he just wants to take advantage of our old age when he wants to go on investing in his Katana AND benefit from his additional ranks with his Broadsword.

Read : He says that two squares in his main weapon will eventually translate into one square in his secondary, whatever. So he saves 3 DPs, and still gets a rank... And we can't even say no. Well we could, but it was all about wheelchair and gloomy retirement home so...  ;D

THEN !, he says he still can spend his 3/7 in Broadsword, thus being able to get 3 ranks / level, until his ranks reach his Katana's. We could but agree on this last part, and we almost agree on the first :o He shall obviously overbenefit from such a rule, but, all in all, we found nothing to legitimately oppose him.

Furthermore, this means, once both his skills are equal, he would forever benefit from this rule, thus investing 3/7 in any would mean having a free rank in the other, so with 3 DP he could get the second rank ; that means spending 13 DP to get the benefit of 20 (VERY beneficial to a W/M !), for EVERY similar X/Y skill(s).

After a successful exorcism and menace to his cat, we managed to prevent him from saying he could obviously go on investing 20 DPs forever to get 2 ranks in Katana and... 1 + 2 ranks in Broadsword...

Now, we know he'll want to use the same stuff about bolts (and balls as we use the option), but also about perception or subtlety skills, and so on.

This is not a rant about the high-costs W/M (30 years too late  ;D) : As we're testing RMU, we just chose to compare with a Law based RM2 campaign with very few companions additions, so we're as close as possible from Beta2. We mostly play RM2 with no-profession based toons, who would greatly benefit (suffer ?) from such rules. About perception for example, we develop both general, traps, secret openings and such as different skills, and now, indeed, we feel it dumb...

In the end the GM sets the rules, so, how do you cope with similar skills ?

Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2017, 07:02:30 AM »
I never used similar skill rules in RM2. But it seems to me that the easy way to get around the problem you present is to only assess similar skill ranks after allDP are spent in any given level.

If you have 10 ranks in katana and 5 in broadsword, if you buy 2 ranks in katana and 1 in broadsword you end up with 12 + 6. You then assess similar skills, and confirm that no extra ranks are applied to broadsword.

If you only get the two ranks in katana, you then assess similar skills and broadsword goes up to 6 at no charge. All your DP for the level are spent at this point; you can't now buy extra broadsword ranks cheap.

Offline Yasha

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2017, 08:25:13 AM »
Seems you gave me the key  8)

The most of us forgot the time factor : Don't consider spending DPs as a linear thing, but as a whole.

So, there's a limit of X/Y improvement / level in RM2, and you can't break it, whatever. This said, the player still gets huge benefit from this rule, but this time I feel it's logical and on par with the Laws.

Plus, we tend to let players spend DP along with their levelling experience (casters need to actually have time to learn new spells/lists, thieves can't train on subtelty if they spent most fighting in a desert land...), so it's a smoooth way to have toons improve even if they didn't fit 100% in the constraint.

Thanks wise Sable Wyvern  ;D

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 12:01:12 AM »
This is not a rant about the high-costs W/M (30 years too late  ;D)
(...)
In the end the GM sets the rules, so, how do you cope with similar skills ?
Honestly, considering how laincursed high everything is for a WM and how few weapon + DS skill the PC probably developed (as the primary weapon category is 2/7, DS is 3/6 --and a WM *should* really develop his five DS, or spend DP in a spell for naught-- and WM is an Essence profession thus in need of Transcend Armor, a 2/5 skill... wait, am I already at 26 DPs out of a grand maximum of 50 in RM2, without even spending DPs for spells --and 12 is a good average to me, totalling *38* DPs!), I'd be lenient.

Honestly, I'd be more worried about how a _broadsword_ was found in a campaign where a character was able to develop ranks for _katana_. :p
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Yasha

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 09:13:53 AM »
"You successfully cast "Summon Olf"  ;)

Those few words where totally aimed at you, and I 200% agree W/M is nowhere near OP. As long as you choose base lists with caution, and even less if you're not on a very long term campaign. I even thought its main weap skill was 3/7...  ::) I wish I was part of a serious discussion about it, as I've yet to read/ear one single valid argument. Anyway, except my godson, nobody ever used the companion's, as we'd rather multi class.

Elvish blades are 1H 1E longswords (Elves are tall) in my world, so katana based in terms of generic RP rules, nothing more. Kinda racial feat. As we're on RM2, it prevents the use of the foolishly overpowered Falchion, and the dull Scimitar.

Then, as we use 2003' Arms Law, Katana as is is available, though in oriental countries only. This game and some others before are aimed at having my world live, testing it's epicness, and have fun. I've had a setting based on my world, but this time it's like coming back to it without RPing glasses, though with RM2 flowing in our veins anyway (the way I built it). We've had very hard-on-rules ultra-nerdy games, to give it this PnP RPG feeling, this one is for long time 40/50ers friends willing to live in the kind of epic fantasy world they've known for decades, thus helping their GM cope with editing  ;D

I suppose you question the fact there should be less broadsword and/or more Katana since it's one of our player's weapon of choice ?

If that's the case, you shall be even more worried to know our W/M saw a broadsword in a Necromancer's hand and immediatly felt it would be a weapon of choice to improve his magical skill  ;D French - at least - Ch&Ca has a 1H Katana in the 2 edged 1H blades under similar weapons section... And we try to keep it as close as possible to core books... So he started this crazy theorycrafting  :o

If that's not the case, I'd really like to know what worries you  ;)

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2017, 01:21:14 AM »
If that's not the case, I'd really like to know what worries you  ;)
Someone is trying to use a katana one-handed?
Anyway, as far as your question is concerned, I thing you ought to wonder how much unbalancing it'd be if your WM was able to master both the (one-handed?) katana and the broadsword, even if by spending some DPs more to master both equally. I mean, how many weapons does he master in all? Two? Similar ones? I don't really feel it'd be much unbalancing...
That being said, the way I play similar weapons, similarity "gives" you the first rank, so 14 ranks in katana would equal 7 ranks in broadsword, true, but in order to acquire the remaining 7 ranks, one should spend the "second" cost --therefore 7 DPs-- rather than the first. Considering that, I _really_ think that giving a WM proficiency in a second weapon at the cost of 7 precious DPs (meaning he probably spent about 40 DPs just to be proficient in his two weapons, DS and Transcend armor) is hardly unbalancing.
Even considering he wouldn't be able to spend (develop) a DS in a bolt he whose spell he doesn't know yet, in the long run, he'll need to do so anyway, so these early levels when he can afford to spend DPs elsewhere are very precious!

Yes, I know, I'm always ranting about how expensive skills are for the WM, but that's because I really think its concept to be interesting. Alas, it's kinda not really working...
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Yasha

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 09:58:40 AM »
Well, he's tall (6,5), and the FRP Armory table gives Hits/Crits on par with broad and longsword. Plus, it states the Katana can be used 1H at a -10 BO. Seems adequate, even though the Katana might feel cumbersome. But then, why does it grants the same - or almost - damage as basic 1HE swords ? And worse, less than half a 2H sword's ? Well, because a Katana is 5 pounds, like the 1HEs, while a 2H is 6 to 12.

So, my Elves are almost all semis/multiclassed, their racial weapon is sharp and elegant, fast/light, and it can be used 1H (for a matter of casting) or 2H (for a matter of balance and swiftness) naturally. They don't feel the need to develop another weapon (their's is powerful to 20s and historical) or dual wield (Elves have NEVER been pure fighters and less than rarely overcome their racial mentality) . As only Elves can be W/M...

Reminder, this very setting is everything but balanced, and meant to bring an epic/human feeling. When we play it balanced, Elves are severely restricted.

Spending the second cost when gaining the first through similarity sounds sounds logical and undebatable 8) Why the player wants to use another weapon - not a second one, another - is something out of reach.

Then I'd like to know how you'd tune the W/M so it feels less cramped. Sadly, most players I know didn't even consider it... It felt, I dunno, useless ? Meaningless ? Botched ? Noble Warrior, Paladin, even Armsmaster seem so much more legit, why ? Through years, only a very few of us gave it a go, most left it, so too few opinions.

Some of us thought it was a matter of lists, and, indeed, I tend to assign the 3 base lists + Body renewal, then, as for the Paladin, limit access to other lists at starting level+5. It feels ok for donjon crawling and campaigns, tends to narrow things so W/M doesn't feel like a very potent Fighter AND full Mage. Might just be a matter of feeling.

About armors and Transcend, we find RM2 rule overly stupid tbh, so Chan has no limitation, Ment being "acting like a divinity but to a minute scale" (Ch&Ca) keeps its headcovering limitation, and Ess is managed as basic Chan, with organic/metallic limitation. For Ess, and in a way Chan, the true limitation is about movement/casting, not material in itself, and the fact pure user are supposed to be geek weaklings ; so we set a malus to be overcome by ST+AG, then adding the eventual remain to ESF. We also dont limit to AT11 and 12 being creatures only, so a AT12 is perfectly fine, though almost as encumbering as AT20, even lighter (what we could test IRL). As you get blur, magical shield, and so on, defense is no problem, and caster have acces to a (high level) mystic armor/defense list anyway. So, basically, TA is only required to use metallic ATs. Yummy  ;D

All in all, I've played both W/M, original, this way, multiclassed, and Paladin, we've had all kinds of W/M and Paladin-like, and frankly, even if my Pal is basically me for 20 years, I loved W/M.

We never felt W/M was OP, we felt the original lack versatility - why have skills if you can't raise anything but combat ? Quite low on fighting, even (though far better if we locked at 150). The most fun and feeling of achievement was my multiclassed, but it really required fine tuning until it was balanced (this one led us to leave /lvl boni AND lock 150). The house-ruled above had a feeling of epicness, without being OP : You just can't cast a non force spell AND attack/defend in our games, point blank, and except LB, bolts aren't OP either. And... you must be able to reach your foe from far through your friends, or be melee and cross fingers your init won't have you cut in half while casting or recovering.

Whatever, at least we'd never get this utility feeling, where casters end being Fly/Teleport dealers or Bacta tanks  ;D

So to say... We had some old DnD players dying for W/M. The funny is, they were absolutely unable to do anything worth with it, unable to choose between melee and magic, unable to do anything worth in any... And they eventually shine when ROCOII went on. In games like Baldur II, the only way a W/M would justify was to use the Kensai kit, kinda cheating the rules. All in all, with very few tweaks (and I know my tweaks are more then few), RM W/M is fine, in all means. It's virutally impossible to convince me it's OP  ::)

As for DS, I'm quite interested in some points, we've tried many house rules, what could lead to other system questions anyway ; I may start another thread.

Yeah. I love telling stories, so long posts.  8)

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 11:55:33 PM »
Oh, yeah, in my WM mandatory costs, I forgot to mention a WM needs to develop some armour skills (2/*, 2/*, 3/*, 4/*) and have some decent HPs (body dev. at 2/8...). Oh, I think he has to spend over 40 DPs, just to be able to merely use at a correct level his main weapon and spells.  ;D

Then I'd like to know how you'd tune the W/M so it feels less cramped.
Honestly? I just gave up.

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All in all, with very few tweaks (and I know my tweaks are more then few), RM W/M is fine, in all means.
But you need these many tweaks. Considering there are more efficient alternatives, I'd rather use them (well, there is at least one official, the EC elemental warrior, and you can probably use the CC elemental warrior variant).
That being said, years ago (about 1998, I think) Nicholas Zoss posted about the main problems in the WM concept ("Development costs for the class should be lowered due to a mathematical error. [They regress toward the mean for those who know what I'm talking about.] The creators of the class took two diametrically opposite sets of skill costs, combined them, and halved the resulting numbers. This makes the Warrior Mage suffer from high costs all around, but especially in the first rank cost, mostly being 2/Xs or 3/Xs")  and suggested a solution ("For every 8 DP's it takes to get 2 ranks, subtract one point, rounding up.") that kinda works. But then, I took and adapted his variant profession (the essence warrior) so, in the end, I didn't use the WM itself.  ;D
The main problem of the WM may be his DS. If you ignore them, the WM is a subpar warrior (too high costs in weapon skills to have the versatility of other warrior professions and a lower weapon bonus per level) and a subpar spell-user (lower base spell bonus per level, and most of his spells are open/closed spells). Only with them is he special (as only the magician has such versatility in bolts/balls). Balls are good as they don't depend on a skill (despite the lower base spell casting bonus). Bolts OTOH... The WM just cannot hope to develop all of them and be efficient (not to mention his bonus per level to DS is... +0); developing about two would be the best way IMO. but then, it means he has to forgo three spells... even though he'd have to "buy" them and spend DPs for them. Then, which one? If he goes for, say, shock bolt and lightning bolt, it means he'd have to keep a weak DS until level 12. OTOH, if he forgoes lightning bolt, he'd lack his most powerful bolt. But, at the contrary, if he forgoes shock bolt, it means he wouldn't get a bolt until at least level 5 (for the not-that-good water bolt) or even level 7 (for the correct ice bolt).
So... yeah. good concept and idea, bad implementation. Too much work to make it work, not worth it IMO.

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The funny is, they were absolutely unable to do anything worth with it, unable to choose between melee and magic, unable to do anything worth in any...
Doesn't it kinda prove that, no, as it is, the WM is not an okay profession?
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2017, 09:25:28 AM »
There is a table in one of the core RM2 core books (I believe) that lists the "groups" of weapons that can be considered similar. I have to look it up for you, but if you have access to the books now you can try to locate it before I get home.  I can see it in my mind clearly though. LOL.  It lists the broad category, (1H Slash, 1 Krush, 2H Slash, etc.)then lists all of the weapons that fall under that category.  You could use that as your final decision and say yes or no to the similar weapon category for your player.

Our group would rule that Katana and broadsword are not similar.  As mentioned earlier, Katana is 2H, but can be used as 1H with a penalty.  In my mind, that means you are using a the weapon sort of improvised, i.e. in a manner in which it was intended.  It's *supposed* to be 2H.... that alone means it is NOT 1H where broadsword is 1H.  By the same token... could you use your broadsword 2 handed?  Sure... but it wasn't really meant to be used like that and it is a 1H weapon.  We don't allow the similar weapon bonus for that type of comparison.   Falchion, Scimitar, Broadsword, yes as they are all 1H slashing.  Katana, Longsword, Claymore, yes as they are all 2H slashing.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2017, 11:34:55 AM »
I slightly more than just skimmed this thread, but I think I'm interpreting RM2 similar weapon skills differently than some/all of you. The posts here sound like people let half of the skill in weapon A be used as a number of ranks of skill in weapon B. (Whether you're halving ranks or bonus doesn't change the rest of my post, I'm just generalizing for simplicity.) The character is then allowed to develop skill ranks in B that are added on top of the halved A-ranks.
I have always interpreted the similar weapon skill rules as saying that you can use weapon B with half your bonus for weapon A, OR your full bonus for training with B, which ever is greater. (Rare case of Rolemaster allowing "the greater of"!) They don't stack, and the half-skill from A is not a basis for building more with B.
So Yasha, the Warrior Mage can use the broadsword at half his katana skill, OR dedicate training to broadsword that will eventually surpass his half-katana skill. He'll still have to pick up two levels of katana to get one level's worth of broadsword bonus. And if he trains  2 levels in both, he would still only get to use the greater of the two, not some additive combination of both.
As for Warrior Mages' power and balance, I wouldn't rely on that point. You want an interpretation that is going to apply to ALL professions, or someone else is going to bite you in the end.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2017, 01:13:13 PM »
There is a table in one of the core RM2 core books (I believe) that lists the "groups" of weapons that can be considered similar. I have to look it up for you, but if you have access to the books now you can try to locate it before I get home.  I can see it in my mind clearly though. LOL.  It lists the broad category, (1H Slash, 1 Krush, 2H Slash, etc.)then lists all of the weapons that fall under that category. 

RM2 (red band edition), p. 79, Table 15.2.3, 'Similar Weapons Table'. Katana (1H) is listed together with other 'long double-edged blades' (though IIRC, a Katana is only single-edged).

The rules specify that you get half the rank bonus for similar weapons. So someone who had a +50 skill rank bonus in broadsword would get a +25 in Katana. They also offer an optional rule that you get half the ranks (which is a little kinder, because due to skill ranks bonuses diminishing returns, half skill ranks is sometimes more beneficial than half skill rank bonuses).

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Offline Hurin

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 01:17:08 PM »
I agree with Olf and others that the Warrior Mage is not at all overpowered. If you just look at his spell lists, I can understand why you might get that impression; some of those lists would be overpowered if you didn't consider how much the WM has to pay for them. But when you actually try to make a Warrior Mage, you realize that you are so starved for DPs that you actually can't be nearly as good at all of them as you would hope. If you try to mix spells and melee, you have to give up almost everything else (such as lores, social skills, even body Development and Perception, etc.).

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Offline Yasha

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 04:43:45 PM »
You point it Hurin, tables state Katana is 1H 2E... Meanwhile, the only Katana table I could find was in Armory (FRP ?), and the hits/crit chart is almost the same as broadsword, even if the weapon is said long and 2H... 1 or 2H, Katanas a one edged, whatever, and quite famous for that. I play katana more like a bastard sword, perhaps people take the no-dashi for the generic katana ?

Weird enough, you can find videos on you tube showing how katanas would perform compared to longswords or broadswords, and, indeed, they feel much closer than to european 2H swords...

Offline Yasha

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 05:36:50 PM »
You point it Hurin, tables state Katana is 1H 2E... Meanwhile, the only Katana table I could find was in Armory (FRP ?), and the hits/crit chart is almost the same as broadsword, even if the weapon is said long and 2H... 1 or 2H, Katanas a one edged, whatever, and quite famous for that. I play katana more like a bastard sword, perhaps people take the no-dashi for the generic katana ?

Weird enough, you can find videos on you tube showing how katanas would perform compared to longswords or broadswords, and, indeed, they feel much closer than to european 2H swords...

About the W/M and tweaks Olf, to me companions weren't core in any way. So they brought the class, perfect, but the first thing you see when reading the sheet is you'll need to tune the costs... Then you just reread about the Paladin right above  ;D One tweak we'used was a simple "take basic class's skills and add 1" ; so we had main weap 2/6, BDev 2/4, DS 2/5. 4/* already huge, only +2/lvl and no /lvl to DS, problem solved.

When I said my friends (in love with W/M) were unable to do anything worth, I was talking about D&D W/M... Maybe the feeling of weakness (almost) every class gets in RMs first levels helped them invest more when they choose to give W/M another chance through RM, but they never complained. Too bad we had to stop this game. Then we tried the tweak above and it felt ok, then others, and we enjoyed W/M, but that's it, our groups have always been more RP/adventure than powercreeping /ruleshumping.

In a system known for leaving you use many different skills, semis are not in a good place anyway, and when you have the classic fighter/thief/mage/cleric, too few room remains for another healer, caster, damage dealer or subtle. Leave one behind, and RM will shine, so semis (and Rogue)  8)

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: New item and similar skills
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 11:03:42 PM »
In a system known for leaving you use many different skills, semis are not in a good place anyway, and when you have the classic fighter/thief/mage/cleric, too few room remains for another healer, caster, damage dealer or subtle.
Disgressing but I personally think that RM loses in that it heavily rests on skills, yet is a class-based system. I won't enter the comparison with (A)D&D because I just hate how people in these forums seem to consider that if RM is one way or another "superior" to (A)D&D, then therefore it's the best RPG system in the whole word, despite the fact there are quadrillions other game systems, but the whole "classic" concept of fighter/thief/mage/cleric is merely a (A)D&D one, and the differentiation of a "semi"-spell user itself derives from it. Systems (notably skill-based systems) where anyone could know some magic, and where healing magic isn't a cleric thing wouldn't probably even notice.
Nowadays, classes would be more specializations, and they'd be tank/DPS/healer/etc., and probably closer to what they should be, as being independant of any game system. :p
As such, the WM feels inadequate because, whilst it seems to be able to be any (but healer?), it also feels it'd always miss some aspects in being any.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.