Author Topic: Is there a missing poison type?  (Read 2255 times)

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Offline Jengada

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Is there a missing poison type?
« on: January 22, 2018, 06:00:25 PM »
RM has 6 categories of poisons: Circulatory, Conversion, Muscle, Nerve, Reduction, and Respiratory. The detail in the rules on how these work is excellent, but it seems there's a missing category, for things like poison ivy, poison oak, etc. Poisons that irritate the skin, which is kind of like a nerve poison but the progression for nerve poisons doesn't work for these sorts of poisons. Do we have a toxicologist in the house who would propose the category name, and how the mild to extreme results work?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 07:18:22 PM »
The effects for circulatory poisons aren't bad for poison ivy if you change some color text, e.g. the penalties are for itching and pain (not drowsiness and blurred vision) at the mild level. Poison ivy can potentially kill you if you get it internally e.g. by breathing in smoke from burning ivy, by affecting the lungs. Change the time course though, the onset times would be slower and the durations longer.

In general, I think specific poisons in addition to a level could have faster or slower timing, altered effects, and capped results (e.g. stinging nettles cause pain but I don't think there is a chance of a more severe result, so just cap it at Mild).

You could also have simpler poisons. E.g. a simple approach to stinging nettles might be an activity penalty or duration just based on X per 5 failure on the RR.
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Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 08:49:36 PM »
I like the idea of just capping the effects.  Poison Ivy on the skin?  Mild.  Oh, you're allergic?  One step up from that.  Oh, you're allergic and you inhaled smoke?  Now it's getting severe.

Offline jdale

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 12:00:01 AM »
Many of the poisons listed in Treasure Law follow that precedent. E.g. Sharkasar is a root prepared as a brown paste which serves as a circulatory poison inflicting 1-10 hits (immediately?) in addition to the normal circulatory poison effects, but those other effects are capped at Moderate. Sharduvaak is a circulatory poison likewise with a maximum of moderate effects, that also interferes with sleep (victim needs double rest until recovered). Etc.

Some redefine the effects. E.g. Bragolith is a conversion poison but the severe effect is that you spontaneously combust. Heniual turns your optic juices to honey at the severe level.

Treasure Law does add a category of Irritants as well. Alfoos causes severe itching (-30 penalties) for 1 hour per 5 failure on the RR, starting after 3-30 rounds. That's a simple analog to poison ivy right there. Tokakla causes blindness for 1 min per 1 failure on the RR.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 10:14:42 AM »
Many of the poisons listed in Treasure Law follow that precedent. E.g. Sharkasar is a root prepared as a brown paste which serves as a circulatory poison inflicting 1-10 hits (immediately?) in addition to the normal circulatory poison effects, but those other effects are capped at Moderate.

Ok, so is that how we are by default supposed to handle the special effects: they are on top of the normal effects? Because it seems like there is a bit of a contradiction: there are the general poison effects, and then there are special effects. How are we to know when a poison works like Sharkasar (which has an additional effect) versus when a poison works like Bragolith (which has a replacement effect)?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 01:58:47 PM »
I didn't compare whether this has changed, but in the current text:

The effects listed below are the specific effects of the listed poison. These effects will occur when the
victim fails his RR. These effects will occur in addition to the general effects of that type of poison (and
take priority when there is a conflict). If no specific effect is given, just use the general effects of the
poison type (see A&CL Section 14.7 for general poison effects).


When a poison says something like "Severe effects turn 1-4 appendages to stone", that explains or describes the normal severe effect. For conversion poisons the severe effect is "partial conversion of bodily tissue to another form" so turning appendages to stone is what this means for this particular poison. Some say things like "Mild effect is blindness in 1-2 eyes" (Trusa), so I take that as replacing the normal mild effect. (Likewise, Trusa say "Moderate effects is complete blindness and coma", and "Severe effect is death". I guess at that point the extreme effect is no longer relevant....)
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2018, 02:49:14 PM »
The effects for circulatory poisons aren't bad for poison ivy if you change some color text, e.g. the penalties are for itching and pain (not drowsiness and blurred vision) at the mild level. Poison ivy can potentially kill you if you get it internally e.g. by breathing in smoke from burning ivy, by affecting the lungs. Change the time course though, the onset times would be slower and the durations longer.

In general, I think specific poisons in addition to a level could have faster or slower timing, altered effects, and capped results (e.g. stinging nettles cause pain but I don't think there is a chance of a more severe result, so just cap it at Mild).

You could also have simpler poisons. E.g. a simple approach to stinging nettles might be an activity penalty or duration just based on X per 5 failure on the RR.

Stinging nettles were the other thing that came to mind immediately, as was the idea of just an activity penalty and duration, with more extreme consequences only happening when the character rolls really badly. Others in this category would be caterpillar hairs or large spider hairs. I'm leaning towards making a category of "Topical Irritants" with its own progression. Circulatory is a good back-up, but it'd be so easy to make a category to add to this.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 03:24:52 PM »
I didn't compare whether this has changed, but in the current text:

The effects listed below are the specific effects of the listed poison. These effects will occur when the
victim fails his RR. These effects will occur in addition to the general effects of that type of poison (and
take priority when there is a conflict). If no specific effect is given, just use the general effects of the
poison type (see A&CL Section 14.7 for general poison effects).


When a poison says something like "Severe effects turn 1-4 appendages to stone", that explains or describes the normal severe effect. For conversion poisons the severe effect is "partial conversion of bodily tissue to another form" so turning appendages to stone is what this means for this particular poison. Some say things like "Mild effect is blindness in 1-2 eyes" (Trusa), so I take that as replacing the normal mild effect. (Likewise, Trusa say "Moderate effects is complete blindness and coma", and "Severe effect is death". I guess at that point the extreme effect is no longer relevant....)


Ah, that does help, thanks. Can I assume too that the special effects kick in immediately when the target fails the RR, even when the description doesn't specify whether the effect is mild, moderate, severe, etc.? For example, Sharkasar's special effect is, 'does 1-10 hits'. The description doesn't specify whether that is mild, moderate, or severe, but I guess it doesn't have to: it just kicks in as soon as the target fails.

What about something like the circulatory poison Karfar though? Its description says, 'Reddish paste causes heart to malfunction. All effects begin in 2-12 rounds.'? What exactly is meant by 'all effects'? Extreme effects for a circulatory poison are death, but Karfar's specific effect is heart malfunction. If I heal the heart in 1 round but 'all effects' kick in after round 2, does the patient die?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2018, 07:24:13 PM »
Ah, that does help, thanks. Can I assume too that the special effects kick in immediately when the target fails the RR, even when the description doesn't specify whether the effect is mild, moderate, severe, etc.? For example, Sharkasar's special effect is, 'does 1-10 hits'. The description doesn't specify whether that is mild, moderate, or severe, but I guess it doesn't have to: it just kicks in as soon as the target fails.

It's admittedly vague but that seems simplest, unless stated otherwise.

Quote
What about something like the circulatory poison Karfar though? Its description says, 'Reddish paste causes heart to malfunction. All effects begin in 2-12 rounds.'? What exactly is meant by 'all effects'? Extreme effects for a circulatory poison are death, but Karfar's specific effect is heart malfunction. If I heal the heart in 1 round but 'all effects' kick in after round 2, does the patient die?

"All effects begin in 2-12 rounds" I read as meaning that all the effects, including mild, moderate, severe, and extreme, happen in 2-12 rounds.

Heart "malfunction" is pretty vague too. Hearts can do wrong things in a lot of ways other than stopping. Some of them can correct themselves. You could interpret it as death or you could interpret it as simply explaining all the other effects as being caused by some kind of dysrhythmia.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_arrhythmia  The latter makes more sense to me. On the other hand, the cost is on the high side, so maybe it's supposed to be more deadly. The Karfar description (many of the others too) actually comes straight over from RMFRP GM Law, where it would have been the sole effect, so presumably the intention there was that it was simply fatal.

I suspect this is not the only one that could use some updating.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2018, 07:58:49 PM »
Thanks, that makes things a lot easier to understand. I had never really figured out exactly how the specific effects work in relation to the general effects, but now I feel I have a workable system.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 12:11:49 PM »
The discussion around existing poisons has actually been helpful, even though it's a bit of a tangent to my original post, so thanks for those comments.

For what it's worth, and feedback, here's basically what I kluged last night. It's largely based on poison ivy, but I tried to broaden it to more general topical poisons:

Mild effects occur in 10-100 minutes. They involve redness in a limited affected area and result in itching that lasts 1-10 hours (-10 on concentration checks).

Moderate effects occur in 20-200 minutes. They cover a larger area of the body than mild effects, but with more severe itching and small blisters over the area (-10 on all maneuvers and concentration). Moderate effects last 2-20 days.

Severe effects occur in 1-10 hours, and include fingernail-sized blistering of the skin over the affected area (-50 on all maneuvers, ) and last  1-10 days.

Extreme effects occur in 1-10 hours. They include fever, dizziness, and development of large blisters and pustules over the affected region (-100 on all activities). These effects last 1-5 days.
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Offline Skaran

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2018, 12:26:40 AM »
Just thought of another effect to be applied by evil gm's. Re stinging nettles and itching. Given the conditions likely found adventuring how about having the victim who will scratch themselves even in their sleep, tear off scabs etc. leaving the way open for infections which will also then need treatment. Some of these infections can also be very nasty. Of course I wouldn't use this against my players ;) Though I did once reward a character who botched a perception roll by having him fall through the roof of a kobold warren.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2018, 11:16:26 AM »
Not quite the same as nocturnal stinging nettles, but my players have just undertaken a week in a swamp. The cleric bought an herbal tonic that mitigates poisionous bites and stings, but they're going to have to save or catch swamp fever. Where it parallels the nettle idea is that I'm trying to figure out where I'll balance the "disease is realistic" with the game playability. This has also made me consider shifting my earlier "should there be one mechanic for poisons and herbs" to add "and diseases".
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2018, 01:52:18 PM »
Not quite the same as nocturnal stinging nettles, but my players have just undertaken a week in a swamp. The cleric bought an herbal tonic that mitigates poisionous bites and stings, but they're going to have to save or catch swamp fever. Where it parallels the nettle idea is that I'm trying to figure out where I'll balance the "disease is realistic" with the game playability. This has also made me consider shifting my earlier "should there be one mechanic for poisons and herbs" to add "and diseases".

I have a group about to venture into the swamps surrounding Gryphonburg.  They're going to need a lot more than tonic. LOL   Terry K. Amthor is devious :D
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Offline providence13

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 11:09:35 PM »
A few days late to the conversation, but I am pretty allergic to poison ivy (Urushiol oils) and Benadryl (a practically magic antihistamine commonly used to treat it and 20 other ailments).

Oils cling to your skin, penetrate and turn into quinone. This chemical hops on white blood cells (that are there because of the foreign chemicals) and ride through the blood. Once in the blood, it can pop up any where the skin is thin, but generally close to  the initial site. The more it spreads, the more white blood cells are sent, which means it can spread further. It's not contagious and not spread by scratching, but you could surely get infected if you turn a small rash into a bloody wound. I think the initial RR is just for exposure.

Once you fail that initial RR, there is a short time to use cold water surfactant soaps to wash away the oils. Wash your clothes and gear, too. That might buy you another RR, maybe with a bonus. Most people will be fine after that. A few red bumps; gone in a few days.

But once you fail your roll by enough, penalties will build up for that area. Poison ivy on your arms/hands might give you -5 or -10 on OB, drawing, Picking Locks, etc.
People scratch to remove the penalties for that area. Like an unconscious healing spell, we even do it asleep. But relief only lasts for a little while. The more you scratch, the more it itches, later.
 
So, after you're addicted to a substance in RM, you accrue penalties until your next fix. But that fix only lasts a while. It's like the itching/scratching associated with poison ivy.
I don't think the penalties should get too extreme.. unless it gets in your eyes, ears, groin.. Ok, the penalties could get extreme. But that could be handled by the initial exposure RR. And maybe those extreme effects could be for a serious Moving Maneuver/ Foraging/Herb Lore Fumble.

I say, roll an RR for exposure. About 85% of people are allergic. "00" your roll and you are immune! :)
Whatever you fail that by is the number of days it will last.
Every day it lasts, roll another RR with SD as a bonus. Fail this roll and increase the penalty to that area OR it could spread to another area (random roll, grapple chart..?). If you want to be a mean ninny GM, have their Co bonus be a penalty. But that's just goofy-and maybe not medically accurate.
Penalties accrue and it spreads until it runs it's course or you've clawed out your eyes in an attempt to reduce the penalties (because we're treating it like an addiction).
Doesn't affect animals, probably not orcs.. Probably not elves either. Never liked elves.

I have to have a steroid shot, which reduces the immune system, slowing down white blood cells, so that the quinone doesn't spread as far, so that my now weakened immune system can take care of it. But that's only been a few times. I get pretty good at noticing that stuff while hiking, now. Great health, otherwise.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 07:18:08 AM »
I'm at work now and not able to reference my books, but I've been plotting the next few sessions for my group and they are about to enter the swamplands surrounding Gryphonburg.  They will be running into the giant mosquitos and the "very-hard-to-see" spiders.  They will be battling reduction poisons from each.  How are the class of reduction poisons handled?  What is being reduced?  Breathing?  Movement?   Given the discussion that's been had so far, in particular with the poison ivy, I don't see how a spider poison could be handled in the same manner as the poison ivy oils even though it seems to be very similar.

* Thank you to Providence13 for the fantastic physiological response to the oils. 

Armed with that knowledge now, the venom will enter the blood stream, it will spread throughout the body, there will be an obvious rash at the puncture site.  I haven't noticed anything within the Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn  that states HOW the poison affects the victim, merely that it is a reduction poison.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 10:47:55 AM »
A reduction poison reduces tissue to liquid. It's basically digesting your flesh. I haven't read Gryphonburg so I can't comment on what's intended there, but a local case would be like a muscle/tissue injury, and more severe one might be breaking down organs.

RMU gives a mild failure as -1d5x10 injury penalty for 3-30 hours after 10-100 rounds onset. Wracking pain and sweating blood for -2d5x10 penalty for 2-20 hours after 20-200 rounds onset for a moderate failure. Incapacitation leading to a 1-100 day coma after 30-300 rounds for a severe failure. And death for an extreme failure (assuming the poison is strong enough to cause an extreme result).
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Is there a missing poison type?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 10:57:20 AM »

Wracking pain and sweating blood for -2d5x10 penalty for 2-20 hours after 20-200 rounds onset for a moderate failure.

AWESOME!!!  ;D

Thank you for the info.  I can plan out the adventure a little better now and have some NPC's helpfully suggest they bring a variety of antidotes with them.
If discretion is the better valor and
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