Author Topic: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination  (Read 5305 times)

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Offline r0bperry

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I'm going to give a little background for my question and post first. If you want to skip this background stuff just scroll down to the asterisk lines.

I've run Rolemaster for over 20 years, off and on, and through several different versions. My favorite has always been the 2nd edition and with the reintroduction of Rolemaster Classic I can continue to play the version I fell in love with so long ago. Because I have played for so long I have taken from each version the parts that work for me and have an extensive House Rules for character creation and play.

Throughout all of this, regardless of the version played, I always seem to have issues with Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination. It never fails that during new character generation, especially with a new player, someone focuses on Stalk/Hide as a means of sneaking up on someone and doing what D&D coined as Backstab. Or they want to use Stalk/Hide as what I call a "Zero level Non-Magical Invisibility Spell". Somehow they think that if they have a high enough skill and roll a good enough ability, they can vanish, right before the eyes of everyone. Even throwing a smoke bomb to cover their escape like a ninja, which actually works. Usually it's a Thief, Rogue, or Assassin, sometimes a Night Blade, but in all it's the same. They generate real high stats during character creation (usually SD, AG, QU, IN, or RE) and through use of the various skill sets they are able to get ungodly high bonuses in any relevant skill they think will help them. I don't make it easier on myself, because I have imported, Adolescent Skill ranks, Everyman Skills, and Occupational Skills from newer systems, as well as some house modified rules to gain even more ability, into my game. I also allow one stat adjustment for 0 level to level 1. So any overpowered characters are of my own making. I don't have a problem with that. The way I look at it is these are the superheroes of their world, and I can actually ratchet up the danger level and know that my players can handle it even at lower levels.

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My problem has always been the lack of a definitive answer in regards to Stock and Hide vs. Perception. The rules books seem to almost always point to a successful Stock and Hide only being detectable by a successful Perception roll, with the penalty to perception being the amount the Stock and Hide was successful by plus any other modifications. Regardless of the edition this has only slightly changed. By itself this is OK, but leaves a lot of holes for players to drive whole herds of cattle through.

Characters, or NPC's/monsters for that matter, with very high Stalk/Hide ability are virtually invisible even when standing right in front of someone. Unless you compensate somehow with improved perception, or toss in modifiers that are only there to thwart this skill, it can become unbalanced very easily. Even in games that are low leveled and this skill is heavily regulated.

What I would like to know has anyone come up with a very reliable way to use Perception vs. Stalk/Hide, that seems to work universally?

Over the years I have read the books and compendiums, as well as many forums, and talked with other players, and GM's and as a result, I developed a means to help with this. It is by no means foolproof, but it does allow for detection of even these overpowered non-magical Stalk/Hide users. I didn't develop it, but have refined it over the years, and would like some input and suggestions as to how to make it better. It uses the Static Action chart and I will try to condense what I have in a word doc to just a few sentences and paragraphs. Please have a look and let me know what you think, what I may have missed, or what I got completely wrong, either through mis-understanding or through over complication.

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Stalk and Hide vs. Perception and Detect Ambush/Assassination

When trying to determine if someone is able to detect someone who is hiding or stalking, the difficulty is based upon a Static Maneuver roll.

Standard detection of something obvious is a Routine maneuver. What this means is, if someone is standing in the middle of an open area in normal light, and not attempting to hide, then detecting him with normal perception is Routine.

Stalking and Hiding Use:

Since normal perception is a Routine maneuver, any attempt to either Stalk or Hide will raise the detection level, even if unskilled.

When making any Stalk or Hide attempt the person attempting the skill, rolls their check. If the attempt just succeeds, then all perception checks will be made on the relevant maneuver level on the Static Action table set for their skill level.

If an attempt succeeds (101 +) by more than 20, then each multiple of 20 will raise the maneuver difficulty level by one. So that if a skilled attempt is made, and the total skill was 160, it would raise the detection attempt from a Light Maneuver to a Very Hard Maneuver.

•   If an UM 100 is rolled during the Stalk/Hide check, then the Static Maneuver level will be raised one level per multiple of 10 successes. So a rolled skill of 160 that started with an UM 100 would go from a Light Maneuver to an Absurd Maneuver.

If at any time a Stalk or Hide fails, then the maneuver difficulty will decrease one level, then again another level per 20 failures, to a minimum of a Trivial maneuver. Essentially, if a perception roll is made to detect someone who failed to Stalk or Hide then it will most likely succeed.

•   If the Stalk/Hide attempt fumbles, then the amount fumbled by will be added to the Perception detection attempt.

As can be seen, even if the Stalk/Hide attempt fails then it is not an automatic detection situation.

•   Unskilled: For someone unskilled at Stalking or Hiding then perception will be attempted as an Easy maneuver.

•   Skilled: For someone who is skilled at Stalking or Hiding then it raises the perception attempt to a Light maneuver.

•   Apply any modifiers for the Static Action check to either the Stalk/Hide or Perception check as applicable.

•   Optional: The Perception roll on the Static Action Maneuver table is modified by the either the bonus succeeded by over 100, or by the developed skill ranks of the one performing Stalk/Hide. So 5 ranks in Stalk/Hide would result in a -25 to the initial Perception roll. This is optional because the difficulty level of the check was already set by the Stalk/Hide attempt. So doing this would apply the same modifier twice.

•   Optional: Ambush: The ranks in Ambush provide an additional modifier to the secondary roll if a complete success or failure Static Action is not resulted. So 5 ranks in Ambush would result in a -5 modifier to the second d100 roll. A successful Ambush roll is required to apply this modifier however.

Modifiers to the Perception roll vs. Stalk and Hide attempts:

Based upon the situation a person who attempts to make a Perception check will have the difficulty increased or decreased depending on when the perception would be made, or the circumstances surrounding the check.

•   If the Stalk or Hide attempt occurs in an unlikely situation, the level of detection will increase one level. Situations that fit these criteria are being Stalked in a crowd, in one’s residence, or anywhere a Stalking/Hiding individual would not be expected under normal circumstances.

•   If the Stalk or Hide attempt occurs in a likely situation, then the level of detection is unaffected.

•   If the Stalk or Hide attempt occurs in a very likely situation or an attempt at Stalking/Hiding is expected, then the level of detection is reduced one level.

•   If the situation is unlikely, likely, or very likely, and the one attempting to detect the Stalk/Hide, using Perception, has the Sense Ambush/Assassination skill, then the attempt will be decreased by one level.

•   If the target of the Perception check was seen or detected prior, reduce the maneuver level by one.

•   If there is no relevant means for the one attempting to Stalk/Hide to do so without being seen first or doing so, then the attempt level is lowered by two maneuver levels.

•   Once the level of the Static Action has been determined the Perception roll is made applying all modifiers. If the attempt succeeds, then the target is detected. If failed, then the one attempting the Stalk/Hide may apply any modifier applicable to their next actions.

•   New checks are not made unless the one Stalking/Hiding does something to trigger a new check, or they move inside a new detection range.

Range of Object/Target of Perception check:
Within 10’   ….   +30
11’-30’   ….   +20
31-100’   ….   +10
101’-300’   ….   +00
301’-500’   ….   -10
501’-1000’   ….   -20
1001’-3000’   ….   -30
3001’-5000’   ….   -50
5001’+   ….   -70

Miscellaneous modifiers will only apply to the roll and not to the maneuver level, unless the modifier states otherwise.
See relevant Static Action Modifications Table for these and other modifying factors.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 01:44:12 PM »
Do you find your system makes spotting people easier (which you seem to want)? Just a quick read through suggests to me that you might be making it harder.

You are familiar with DnD; have you considered using their 'passive perception' rules? Instead of requiring a roll, the character just takes a 10 on a d20 (so in Rolemaster that would be a 50 on a percentile roll), and adds his skill to the roll. This is the number someone has to get to remain hidden, or else the character spots him. If you use a system like that, then things like hiding in plain sight become quite difficult, if for example you rate spotting someone trying to hide in plain sight as a routine (+100) maneuver. The spotter would get basically 150 + Perception bonus to spot the hider, which makes it highly unlikely the hider will remain hidden.

The fact that the spotter does not have to roll eliminates the possibility of him rolling very low and failing to spot something that should be totally obvious to him. And the fact that the spotter does not have to roll also eliminates the metagame shenanigans that can occur when a player is told to roll a perception check which he knows he has failed.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 12:40:35 AM »
The House Rules of my group contain a section about Stalk & Hide vs. Perception and we found it to work very well. It boils down to the PC always making the roll for the skill, adding +50 to it and subtracting the opponents skill bonus. So if a character has +60 for his Stalking skill and the person trying to spot him has +40 for his Observation skill then he'd have 60+50-40 = 70 plus an OE roll on the Static Maneuver table. We're using Stalk & Hide modifications from School of Hard Knocks. No problems so far.

Offline r0bperry

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 04:40:54 AM »
Both ideas on their surface sound good, and I might try them out, or a version of them, and see how they work. Everyone has their own way of doing things and if these ways work for you then that's good on you.

But by the rules set, regardless of the edition used, Perception vs. Stalk/Hide is supposed to be an Opposed roll. So some aspect of both the Observer Perception and Stalker/Hider skill needs to be applied. Otherwise there is no use having either skill.

The one thing that I was trying to accomplish with my house rule was to keep it an opposed roll as the rules say. I'm not trying to give one side an advantage over another.

1) Within the rules it sets the level of a normal perception check at Routine. Meaning that your flat check of +50 would always succeed, or would require a roll under 100 to succeed. This could be modified by the level of success over 100 that the one attempting to Stalk/Hide provides, or maybe just his skill level. Also this could be additionally modified by adding the skill bonus of the one perceiving. Provided the numbers rolled out to give the one Stalking/Hiding an even chance to hide. In testing this out though, it gave the one doing the Stalk/Hide only a 30% chance of remaining hidden with average other modifiers. This is right about where we want it anyway. Problem is, the numbers don't change much even when the skill of either side goes up. The best you can hope for without an open-ended roll from either side was a 50 or less required to spot the one Stalking/Hiding. That's with an end result on the Static Maneuver of a -50 roll for Routine Maneuver. Now that would all be under a Passive Perception check.
It breaks down during combat when Perception is no longer Passive. It also does not account for any skill in Sense Ambush/Assassin. Granted the latter is a separate check, and really only comes into effect if the target is under threat. But it is really the only other skill that gives a heightened awareness check option.
Either way I will try and check it out in actual game play to see how it really works.

2)In looking at the House Rules you optioned, it seems very similar to the rules I proposed. However I was a bit confused about adding the +50 to the Stalk/Hide attempt. Why was this amount added? I can understand a flat +50 for the Passive Perception of above because you would not roll Perception. Just add your respective skill or modifiers to the result. The one Stalking still gets his roll, because he is attempting to hide. I just don't understand why you would add an additional +50 to the one Stalking/Hiding. He already has skill (probably) as well as there are other modifiers for Abilities, Level Bonus, terrain, lighting, distractions, ect... Giving him an additional +50 for some reason seems like an unfair advantage for the one using Stealth. Especially when put against another that may already have penalties for being unaware to begin with. Aside from this I see no issue with the way you check for your Stealth vs Perception.

For the one that I have put forward here, it provides a matrix to determine difficulty for spotting the one Stalking/Hiding, based upon how well he accomplished his Stealth ability. Without letting someone who is overly skillful at either Perception or Stealth dominate. I think it evens the playing field. I will look into both suggestions and try them out to see if they can be applied in most instances.
 
Thanks



Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 05:03:49 AM »
But by the rules set, regardless of the edition used, Perception vs. Stalk/Hide is supposed to be an Opposed roll. So some aspect of both the Observer Perception and Stalker/Hider skill needs to be applied. Otherwise there is no use having either skill.

The one thing that I was trying to accomplish with my house rule was to keep it an opposed roll as the rules say. I'm not trying to give one side an advantage over another.
The house rule we're using is just trying to reduce the dice rolling of the opposed rolls by one roll by maintaining the same changes for success and failure as opposed rolls would do.
Quote
2)In looking at the House Rules you optioned, it seems very similar to the rules I proposed. However I was a bit confused about adding the +50 to the Stalk/Hide attempt. Why was this amount added?
Instead of adding +50 and doing one roll on the Static Maneuver Table you might as well use the two rolls you seem to prefer, one for the stalking/hiding person and one for the observing person and let the one with the higher total roll (including skill & modifications) win. If you add +50, subtract the two skill bonuses, roll OE and then compare to 100 you really get the same chances for success & failure as when rolling twice and comparing the end results. We prefer to have one roll because it is less dice rolling and allows us to use the Static Maneuver Table with its additional results for partial success etc. But in the end it's up to you.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 08:20:32 AM »
I've been in the same boat as you.  Years ago when we played, we had some players who thought Stalk/Hide = Instant Invisible, but there's more too it right?  You need a place to hide, you need clothing that doesn't make noise when you move, you need to control your breathing so you're not panting like a dog in August, etc. so friendly arguments would pop up from time to time.  RM2 was our mainstay back then (still mine now) and we tried our best to eliminate those arguments so we went with this:

Stalk/Hide:  RMC2 has two values for this skill so we used those. Stalk (I think) is SD/AG and Hide is SD, I don't recall exactly.  We defined it for the players as "Stalking is actively moving while trying to stay unseen and Hiding is staying put and not being seen."  Open ended rolls for the skill attempt to move unseen or to stay hidden with modifiers depending on the situation.  100+ = success.

Sense Ambush/Assassin:  We used this as a counter to the Stalk/Hide.  Whomever rolled higher had an advantage, seen/unseen, detected/undetected.  Depending on the rolls and the GM, the results were a little different, but still pretty consistent.

John rolls 89 for Hide.  Target (Pronounced Tar-jay) rolled 32, he's unaware of being followed or that there is an ambush.  The GM would then award a bonus to the attack for surprise.  +25 surprise to 1st attack, or something suitable.

John rolls 89 and Tar-jay rolls 105.  Tar-jay has a really bad feeling and readies his weapons and positions himself to the most likely place an ambush would be sprung from, MAYBE he is even aware that there is an assassin hiding under the bed, breathing heavily, while moving around in plate armour.  LOL.  Whatever the case, the Ambush attempt failed and there are no bonuses.  Maybe Tar-jay has an advantage as the would-be assassin has to crawl out from under the bed first.

We only allowed Sense Ambush/Assassin and not General Perception to detect Ambush/Assassin.  SA/A was specific to that situation vs. General Perception which was taking in "everything" in a brief overview mode.  Walk in, take a look around, try to get cursory glances at all that you can, not actively looking for an attacker or a secret opening (Locate Secret Opening is meant for that). 

Sometimes we did allow a particularly new player or just a really bad player circumstance to use half or less of their General Perception skill to Sense Ambush/Assassin as a very small portion of the "general look around the room" may have picked up on something that seems a bit off.

Ambush:  This was a little tricky, but we wanted to make more use of this skill besides simply modifying a crit roll.  We allowed players to use Ambush as a skill to set up a successful ambush as well.  Placing crates in a certain manner to force players to walk a certain path, positioning tarps to make it look like there was someone hiding under there while the assassins were hiding in the crates.  Again, the rewards varied depending on the GM.  Some required a 100+ total, others used the MM table to see what, if any bonus was awarded to the initial attack.

I've used the RR table at times to see if Tar-jay detects a successfully laid ambush:

John has 7 ranks in Ambush and an "OB" of 42 (7*5=35 + modifiers = 42 for lack of a better descriptor).  John rolls 87 for total of 129.  i.e.: Greater than 100 so a successful Ambush has been staged with 29 points over the 100 needed.  Tar-jay walks into the target zone and makes a RR of Tar-jay (player level 5) vs. Ambush of level 7, -29 to the roll as John rolled 29 over the 100 needed to stage a successful ambush.  Tar-jay rolls 32 + SA/A Skill 35 - 29 = 38.  Look at RR chart, successful or no?  Probably not.

If John had rolled 89 for Ambush, 11 less than what is needed for a successful Ambush.  Tar-jay would get +11 to his SA/A roll.  32+35+11= 78.  Tar-jay doesn't fall for the "ol' empty-boots-behind-the-curtain-while-getting-jumped-from-the-closet-behind-you trick."

Stalk/Hiding in plain sight:  For these players, we just used the MM table and chose an appropriate difficulty level and had the player roll Stalk or Hide.  Hiding in a dark cave with soft moss covering the ground and running water making some noise, "Easy" difficulty.  Stalking in a grassy field, medium height grass, probably Medium.  Stalking in an empty ballroom with lots of echo, while wearing chainmail, Near Impossible and so on.  Either the payer is detected or no.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 09:53:09 AM »
I would just point out that an opposed check does not necessarily need two rolls (even if RM defines it that way right now). It only requires two skills to be compared, and could be handled with a single roll. Resistance Rolls for example in RM2 compared both the attacker's and the defender's level. Attacks too compare both an OB and a DB but are resolved with a single roll. When you introduce a second roll, you add more variability, which seems to lie at the root of the problem: there is so much variability that sometimes characters can't see things that thet should.

In the passive perception system of DnD, the spotter gets a 10 which represents an average roll on a d20. I use a 50 in Rolemaster to represent an average roll on a d100. I use this for passive perceptions to reveal to the players the basic things they can see which are in plain sight, which they don't have to roll for but which are affected by skill. If someone is trying to hide, they then roll their stealth, and that is the terget the spotter needs to see them, modified by difficulty (trying to hide in plain sight is absurd, so imposes a further heavy penalty).

If you don't want as much variability (and that seems to be the heart of your problem), then i think you could try eliminating one of the rolls.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 10:06:07 AM »
Multiple rolls increases the range -- you can get an extreme high roll by one person and an extreme roll by the other -- and that means you could have events occur that should be virtually impossible. But open-ended rolling can do that too. Ultimately there needs to be some GM judgment. You just can't hide in the open unless you have great camouflage or magic. Don't even roll.

On the other hand, multiple rolls changes the frequency distribution and, although the extremes are possible, average results are more likely than with a single roll. But if there are multiple people on watch, each getting their own roll, the chance that at least one of them will spot the stalker go up quite a bit. With enough guards, someone will open-end their perception roll every time. Removing the perception roll is one way to solve that. You could also treat the group perception check as a single roll by the person with the highest skill, then giving a bonus for assistance (in RMU that would be add the number of ranks for the next highest, half ranks for the next, etc). That also saves time.

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Offline psotos

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 12:51:56 PM »
First off your typo of "Stock and Hide" absolutely cracked me up! I'm thinking, is this something they do at Amazon.com?? :D

I've had all the same problems as you. Its even more complicated than you think when you try to add in a group of people stalking against another group. No I dont want to spend hours rolling stalk and hides against your group and the 100 sleeping Ogres! LOL

My method:

I determine the perception abilities of the enemies that you are sneaking by, I think about just how difficult it would be to do in "real life" :-P then I assign a difficulty. I force the person with the "worst" stalk to make the manuever if multiple PCs are stalking.

If the succeed then the stalk works, otherwise, depending upon how bad they fail, I come up with progressive sceanrios. A huge blunder would mean that the entire group they were trying to stalk by all awakes at the same time...etc...So i don't waste time making too many rolls. I resolve everything with a single roll. Its fast and simple.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 03:54:40 PM »
It was mentioned above, but it bears repeating: there needs to be some place to hide in order to do so (without magic). If the guards you are trying to sneak by are guarding a door at the end of a 50 foot corridor with nothing but a torch sconce on the wall, there is a zero (0) percent chance of sneaking by them. At that point, it comes down to either charisma skills/abilities or distraction so they will leave their post - neither of which are part of the stalk/hide skill.

In all things, the GM needs to look at the situation and ask themselves, "is this even remotely possible?" If the chance is less than 1%, I suggest just describing it to the players as an impossible task, so they need to look at a different way of accomplishing the goal. Some players just need to be taught that no matter your skill level, there are somethings that are just impossible. Does your player with a really high Jump skill think that if they roll high enough they should be able to jump over the Moon? Basically, having a high skill does not mean insta-win.

As for using them in game, as I have been playing/running D&D 5E a lot lately, I have really come to like the Passive Perception concept and will use it when I run RM again (hopefully soon). When you are standing guard, you cannot be actively perceiving at all times, that is impossible for normal living beings (constructs and spells, sure) so a flat average works real well to reflect that sometimes they are more attentive and other times less. As for Awareness and Sense Ambush, these are specialized skills that really need to be rolled, I believe (though if someone could come up with an easy way to make them work more passively I would love that).

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Offline r0bperry

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2016, 12:43:20 PM »
An update to my first postings regarding using the rules I put out there for Stalk/Hide vs. Perception.

Over an exhaustive combat between a couple of my players that put these rules to a hard test, and they found that the rules worked very well. Though there was an additional amount of rolling when determining if the one using Stalking/Hiding could hide or if he could be seen, the increases to the static action table based on how high the skill roll (Starts as a Light Maneuver for skilled use, Easy for unskilled, and increased in difficulty per 20 over 100), was easy to use as well as very playable. It didn't break the game and bent in both directions well enough. The one using Stalk/Hide had a very high skill (over 90) while the one perceiving only had an average (20) perception. Even with this vast difference in ability they found that the Stalker/Hider was not always able to get away without being detected. Using the Static Action tables in the way mentioned in the rules I posted worked very well and did not slow or over balance the game.

Try this out for yourself and then comment on results. Thanks.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2016, 03:57:22 PM »
(though if someone could come up with an easy way to make them work more passively I would love that).

I don't have my players make those skills rolls. I make them, often long before the start of the game while I am planning the session. If the character succeeds then at the right time I will pass the player a note or such. If they fail then the characters walk blindly into the trap.

Not asking for the skill roll stops any potential meta gaming just off the back of asking for that particular skill.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2016, 05:12:58 PM »
(though if someone could come up with an easy way to make them work more passively I would love that).

I don't have my players make those skills rolls. I make them, often long before the start of the game while I am planning the session. If the character succeeds then at the right time I will pass the player a note or such. If they fail then the characters walk blindly into the trap.

Not asking for the skill roll stops any potential meta gaming just off the back of asking for that particular skill.

Another thing you can do if your players really want to make all rolls for their characters is to get them to make 5 rolls before the game; then you roll randomly to see which one is used.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2016, 02:44:51 AM »
(though if someone could come up with an easy way to make them work more passively I would love that).

I don't have my players make those skills rolls. I make them, often long before the start of the game while I am planning the session. If the character succeeds then at the right time I will pass the player a note or such. If they fail then the characters walk blindly into the trap.

Not asking for the skill roll stops any potential meta gaming just off the back of asking for that particular skill.

Another thing you can do if your players really want to make all rolls for their characters is to get them to make 5 rolls before the game; then you roll randomly to see which one is used.

All my players make 10 rolls before we start each session for me for just this sort of situation. I find checking the sense ambush at the plotting stage stops the dice rolling interfering with the role play and story.
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Offline r0bperry

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2016, 03:08:11 AM »
Regarding one or more of a group attempting to stalk/hide against another group attempting to spot them.

I tend to do a single roll for both sides. Either I average the skill of the group, or foes, or take the lowest skilled character, and have them roll.
For the perception side I take the average perception, and will either give a modifier per person attempting to see the targets or a flat number based on how many there are looking and then roll.

So if the ones trying to Stalk/Hide have an average/low skill of say 20 in Stalk/Hide and the ones perceiving have an average 20 in Perception, but there are 10 eyes looking (+1 or +5 per set of eyes) then their actual bonus would be +30 to +80 against the ones who Stalk/Hide. Add in any modifiers you want to this and then roll.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2016, 08:02:40 AM »
I normally test the worst hider against the best seeker and if the party is detected I see how that would pan out on the ground. If the worst hider was bringing up the rear then all eyes could be focused behind the rest of the party or if the best seeker is right out on the picket line the whole plan could unravel before it gets off the ground.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2016, 12:25:16 PM »
I don't have my players make those skills rolls. I make them, often long before the start of the game while I am planning the session. If the character succeeds then at the right time I will pass the player a note or such. If they fail then the characters walk blindly into the trap.

Not asking for the skill roll stops any potential meta gaming just off the back of asking for that particular skill.
I can see that, but it does mean just one more thing to do for the GM - added to all the rest of the stuff they have to do.

As for group vs group, I go for the "weakest link" aspect. Basically, the individual with the weakest stealth/stalking/hiding is pitted against the best perceiver of the opposing group (or, an average, I suppose could work). Groups are much less sneaky than individuals, especially if in the group you got a fully-armored and equipment-overloaded individual - which you usually do. This means, that if the group wants to be stealthy as a whole, then they all need to do certain things to make that happen. (Of course, magic can greatly aid in this endeavor.)
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Offline arakish

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 06:36:55 AM »
One thing I have used for Skill vs. Skill is to use an RR method.  The one who makes the RR by the most wins.  If both fail, then nothing happens.

I know, stupid, but it seemed to work.

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 09:24:23 AM »
One thing I have used for Skill vs. Skill is to use an RR method.  The one who makes the RR by the most wins.  If both fail, then nothing happens.

I know, stupid, but it seemed to work.

rmfr

That's actually a pretty interesting convention to use.  Both players succeeded at the intended tack so who should win the desired outcome?  The one who did it better has the edge/advantage and therefore gets the desired outcome.  If one player fails the roll, then success to the other player, or as you said, both fail then nothing happens.  I think I'm going to give this a go at the next session we do, hopefully this weekend.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Perception, Stalk/Hide, Ambush, and Sense Ambush/Assassination
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2016, 10:29:49 AM »
(though if someone could come up with an easy way to make them work more passively I would love that).
I don't have my players make those skills rolls. I make them, often long before the start of the game while I am planning the session. If the character succeeds then at the right time I will pass the player a note or such. If they fail then the characters walk blindly into the trap.

Not asking for the skill roll stops any potential meta gaming just off the back of asking for that particular skill.

Another thing you can do if your players really want to make all rolls for their characters is to get them to make 5 rolls before the game; then you roll randomly to see which one is used.

All my players make 10 rolls before we start each session for me for just this sort of situation. I find checking the sense ambush at the plotting stage stops the dice rolling interfering with the role play and story.
Again, more pre-game work which itself is not a game breaker for me, but the fact that you still need to modify these rolls due to situation and then maybe random which one you use at which time, means you might has well just roll the check yourself. By having a few of the more pertinent skills of the PCs written down you can do that yourself without them knowing anything is up. Or you can do what some GMs do and have them randomly roll for no particular reason to keep them guessing. All of it entails more work for the GM, who is already overworked, so I would prefer something faster and easier, like a passive perception vs passive difficulty. Or, just dictate it; if you want them to notice something, they do, if not then they don't, and go from there.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.