Topic: Are iron and steel scarce on Kulthea?

[Yseulte Harper]

In preparing to run my Shadow World campaign, I've been confused as to how available iron and steel weapons would be.  The Master Atlas World Guide, mentions a "dearth of some of the heavier elements" and the "lack of metals" that "has also had an effect on the development of most civilizations..." (page 6).

In the description of a stock of a weapon store in the town of Kelfour's Landing, the Quellbourne module notes "Ninety-five percent of these weapons
are bronze; others are steel. Ferrous alloys are rare in Quellbourne."

Yet the Atlas Addendum lists iron as "typical weapon material", and goes on to describe both nonmagical low and high steel as well as magical forms.

And in some modules, I have seen large numbers of troops equipped with iron and steel weapons.

I'm confused.

[Terry K. Amthor]

I've mentioned that some metals might be less common on Kulthea than, say Earth. However, much of the 'shortage' in the examples you mention is because of technology rather than availability. Iron is more difficult to extract from ore than tin and copper (the elements of bronze), and so often more expensive. And many societies (such as Lankanôk) only have limited facilities that can attain the heat necessary to smelt and work iron. Granted, there is considerable trade across the hemisphere, iron weapons are fairly expensive to purchase, especially in less developed societies. And more advanced cultures might not be as eager to share their technology with others. I would suggest reading about bronze and iron ages on Earth for some idea.

Anyone else want to weigh in? How about in other fantasy worlds?

[egdcltd]

I think the biggest problem on Kulthea would be long distance transport. Iron, and sometimes steel, are probably very common in some areas (iron is not that heavy an element). However, the dangers of transport make it less likely that it would be shipped around as much as on Earth - or that, even when it is, that the ships would actually get there. For instance, Cornish tin was shipped all over the Mediterranean, and probably beyond; such a thing would likely be harder on Kulthea. Mediterranean traders didn't have to worry about Flow Storms, Essence Barriers or dragons. In the Bay of Izar region on Emer, which is protected from much of the weather and has good quality metal coming from Ton-Bor as well as Sarnaki steel weapons, iron and steel is probably a lot more common.

[Terry K. Amthor]

This does bring up an interesting point. I was just looking at the prices for weapons in the Eidolon book that I am finishing up, and it does not specify the metal. I would assume they are iron (+0) and that there would be lesser bronze weapons (bladed would be -10), but there is no price given. Suggestions?

[egdcltd]

Not sure on price (although ...And a Ten Foot Pole does list lots of weapon prices), but I would assume that Sel-kai is one of the places where steel would be more common, due to the trade network. They do trade with at least some suppliers of steel weapons.

[Tommi]

I don't think that there is demand on bronze tools in Se-Kai (unless cheaper rustproof tolls are needed - nowadays bronze tools are more expensive than even high quality cast iron tools: e.g. bronze bodied hand planes are more expense). If technology is fairly common like steel and iron in S-K "lesser metals" may not be cheaper at all.  To my understanding bronze and copper were used in renaissance era only if those offered benefit over iron (e.g. manufacturing: casting large objects etc.)  - price of base metal was not issue. I've always thought that S-K is kind of renaissance city. Several S-K smiths work with nonmagical but high quality metals. I assume that they offer special steels and alloys that are actually better than renaissance era metallurgy managed  (white alloy - tool grade titanium etc.). 

 ...  I'd say that bronze could be half the price of steel but don't make it cheaper than that.

...  Cyril 7 is "normal planet" Iron should be more common than copper: element numbers are 26 and 29 respectively - Iron can be produced in normal fusion while copper need additional neuron captures...   how they are distributed in in planets minerals etc may change things but nothing that has been previously mentioned supports that. So its technology pendant.

[Terry K. Amthor]

Bronze is softer than iron and bends/dulls more easily. And we are still learning about how common elements are on Earth. After the revelation that a Mars-sized planet hit Earth 1.0 and created the moon, more recently there is a theory that another small planet hit Earth, adding to the heavy elements and explaining why Earth's magnetic field is so strong.

Wow, it makes Kulthea's origins seem a little less strange.

[egdcltd]

Kulthea also had a highly advanced technological civilisation, which probably used up a lot of stuff. However, when that civilisation ended, it did it in such a way that a lot of the surface was probably replaced with magma from deeper inside the planet, which could have brought a lot of new stuff back to the surface. So, you could probably argue either way for an element's presence.

[Malim]

Just go with Mithril evry time!

[metallion]

I have a lot of trouble believing that a nation on par with Sel Kai, Danarchis, and Ardania is pre-iron age.  That would be like pre-Pharaohic Egypt being a serious competitor with Rennaisance Italy.

If the mundane technology for smelting iron and even steel wasn't readily available, one of the duties of the vast Priestly caste of the sun god would be creating the intense heat necessary to produce those effects.

Steel is also not a development far behind iron.  We've found steel in Anatolia dating back 4,000 years.  Sel-kai steel might be better than Lankan steel, and it might be interesting to come up with who's still is better.  But Rome had steel.

When I think of heavy elements being rare in Kulthea, I'm not thinking of iron, I'm thinking of uranium -- and then I'm thinking most of it the supply is bound up in the Pillar of the Gods or stockpiled in Lords of Essence facilities behind very powerful guardians.

[Terry K. Amthor]

Well, what were Native Americans up to during Renaissance Italy? The Maya didn't have the wheel (though they used it in toys...), and they certainly didn't have steel. Most of their weapons were wood and bone and obsidian. Now, Places like Sel-kai do trade with Lankanok, but what do they trade? I imagine there are controls on sending sophisticated weapons to less developed and possibly hostile kingdoms (and a bustling smuggling trade). And even if the Lankani Priests could generate the heat to smelt iron, could they do it in enough volume to be practical? The sun forge in the high temple could only crank out so many swords...

Just pondering...

[egdcltd]

Trading advanced weaponry to potentially hostile civilisation is probably restricted. Which means it's a profitable smuggling operation. A possible adventure for players there, either stopping such an operation, or running their own.

[Terry K. Amthor]

The Elves of Namar-Tol are like Stargate's Tollan. Smug, condescending (but usually pleasant enough), and totally unwilling to share their tech with most anyone.

http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Tollan

[egdcltd]

The Elves of Namar-Tol are like Stargate's Tollan. Smug, condescending (but usually pleasant enough), and totally unwilling to share their tech with most anyone.

http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Tollan

Only to get flattened by someone with superior technology.

[Terry K. Amthor]

The Elves of Namar-Tol are like Stargate's Tollan. Smug, condescending (but usually pleasant enough), and totally unwilling to share their tech with most anyone.

http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Tollan

Only to get flattened by someone with superior technology.

Blackmailed, then flattened, by a race that steals other races' tech as pet of their m.o. Hmmm

[egdcltd]

I think I read earlier in the week that steel was pretty expensive until the 19th century, when it finally became cheap to mass produce it. So, even though there are countries that manufacture steel, it would still be pretty pricey.

[yammahoper]

The Elves of Namar-Tol are like Stargate's Tollan. Smug, condescending (but usually pleasant enough), and totally unwilling to share their tech with most anyone.

http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Tollan

SO MANY reasons I like playing an elf hating racist, the kind of PC that will give  a human the shirt off his back but won't cross the street for an elf unless it was to slit the filthy creatures throat.

[metallion]

Well, what were Native Americans up to during Renaissance Italy?

Getting colonized.

The Maya didn't have the wheel (though they used it in toys...), and they certainly didn't have steel.  Most of their weapons were wood and bone and obsidian.

And they got colonized.

Now, Places like Sel-kai do trade with Lankanok, but what do they trade? I imagine there are controls on sending sophisticated weapons to less developed and possibly hostile kingdoms (and a bustling smuggling trade). And even if the Lankani Priests could generate the heat to smelt iron, could they do it in enough volume to be practical? The sun forge in the high temple could only crank out so many swords...

Just pondering...

As a stand-alone concept, a pre-iron Lankanok could make sense, but that bustling smuggling trade means iron weapons get out -- and Lankanok is not at all far from three realms with advanced metallurgy.

But a pre-iron Lankanok isn't an existential threat to Namar Tol requiring their first-ever use of canister bombs.  A pre-iron Lankanok gets carved up by Sel-Kai, Ardania, and Relian.  The Mayans lasted a long time before falling to the Spanish, but they had an ocean separating them.

[Terry K. Amthor]

Well, both the northern Native Americans and the Maya/Aztecs were decentralized, and the Maya had developed these conquest rituals between their city-states that actually cost them very few men (they only attacked another city-state at certain times, and if they captured the king they won; it was almost a game), but of course the Europeans did not play by those rules, and neither American culture was the aggressor.

On Kulthea we have Sel-kai, the Renaissance Venice of the Shadow World, which extends its trade influence, and the rich merchants are happy with their islands, and the Namarian Elves have their own protected island cluster, and they have a small, fairly static population. Namar-Tol is more like the US pre WWII... they really want to just stay out of it, but if the Lankani are stupid enough to attack them, they will punish them. But Lankanok is big, has psycho leaders with a god complex, and has a large population of religiously driven pawns to spend...

And while Earth has oceans, the Shadow World has ever-changing Essænce Barriers (which I think I have not emphasized enough in later books).

The Alliance is much more like the invading Spaniards than anyone else.

Just more thoughts off the top of my head to ponder, loving the discussion.

[egdcltd]

I imagine the Essænce Barriers would make an enormous difference. When people going looking for new lands don't come back, it does put a bit of a dampener on future explorers, whether they were looking to get trade routes, loot, or acquire the odd continent.

We really need a supplement on the Alliance.