Author Topic: A new level of archery  (Read 6928 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2015, 12:14:50 PM »
If you're talking modern firearm types, yeah it doesn't quite work out well logically.  Although single shot, three round burst, and auto-fire can work well enough.  Again, the length of a round is irreverent from a broader perspective, it's just there to separate and limit actions and if you make it shorter people will start to ask how you can perform other actions in such a short round.

However, if you're talking historical firearm types I don't think there's really an issue.  As a matter of fact 10 seconds might even be a little short to get a shot off.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2015, 03:09:40 PM »
The current structure may work for archery, but it breaks down as soon as firearms enter a game.

I have found the rule set in Weapons Law: Firearms works very nicely for integrating firearms into RM 10 second melee rounds.

Lots of multiple shots results in lots of missing.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2015, 03:42:49 PM »
The current structure may work for archery, but it breaks down as soon as firearms enter a game.

I have found the rule set in Weapons Law: Firearms works very nicely for integrating firearms into RM 10 second melee rounds.

Lots of multiple shots results in lots of missing.

I actually wasn't especially happy with those rules for a number of reasons. Doesn't mean they're bad, but simply that for my groups they never worked very well...especially the damage component. I've also always felt that ten seconds is far too much time for a split-second shootout-type combat round.
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Offline jdale

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2015, 04:18:25 PM »
Personally I think the 10 second round is too long for anything. Being able to move 250' in a round exceeds the entire span of the typical combat environment. I like 5 seconds for fantasy and 2 seconds for modern. 5 seconds is still a long time for a gunfight, but 2 seconds means that reloading a crossbow basically makes you sit out the rest of the battle....
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2015, 04:23:18 PM »
I've had really good results with two seconds for modern as well.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2015, 10:17:24 AM »
Very short rounds are great for realism.  The 10 second round is great for story telling. 

I recall 1st edition DnD had a 1 minute melee round.  RM 10 seconds seemed very fast indeed.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2015, 04:40:44 AM »
The video is nice, and the guy shoots quite fast, but imho that's it.
Doesn't really show a "new level" of archery, nor is more historically accurate than hollywood movies.
Most of what he shows is the result of cheap trick shots and video editing.
Here's a nice article about it: http://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/
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Offline markc

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2015, 07:22:55 AM »
Thanks for the article, it was very interesting. I was especially interested in the comments that others had posted and as I was expecting ranged the gamut of fandom to critical.
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Offline jdale

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2015, 10:17:23 AM »
The video is nice, and the guy shoots quite fast, but imho that's it.
Doesn't really show a "new level" of archery, nor is more historically accurate than hollywood movies.
Most of what he shows is the result of cheap trick shots and video editing.
Here's a nice article about it: http://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/

The narration in the video is pretty hyperbolic, but I thought the criticism in that article was equally so. E.g. neither of them properly explains why you switch the arrow to the other side of the bow, GeekDad spends a lot of time explaining why you don't do that but still mentions that some people do. As the reason is the switch to a thumb release, I think it's fair for Lars to say he had to "unlearn" and relearn techniques. You really do need to do so when switching from finger release to thumb release, it's quite awkward. I know I'm having trouble with it....

Is Lars' shooting real? I'm sure there are multiple takes but I also know I couldn't afford enough camera time and targets to pick and choose shots that look as good as his. The speed is real, the accuracy is impressive even if it's not as perfect as depicted.



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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2015, 12:18:01 PM »
I was curious about the whole "which side of the bow" the arrow goes on.  I always shot with the arrow on the right side of the bow... it just seemed the obvious way to do it.
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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2015, 03:54:39 PM »
I don't think anyone posted this link but this is a great discussion of many of the things in the video:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/anna-maltese/yes-ive-seen-the-video-thank-you-for-posting-it-/10152769003622585?pnref=story

Also, there's a snopes article that also includes additional explanation by Lars:
http://www.snopes.com/info/news/larsandersen.asp

Offline Arioch

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2015, 04:00:03 PM »
The narration in the video is pretty hyperbolic, but I thought the criticism in that article was equally so.

Yes, imho the video's major fault lays in its presentation. I think it would have been much more interesting (and informative) without the "everything you know is WRONG" attitude.
The article is pretty caustic, but I guess the author is playing on the video sensationalism.

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Is Lars' shooting real? I'm sure there are multiple takes but I also know I couldn't afford enough camera time and targets to pick and choose shots that look as good as his. The speed is real, the accuracy is impressive even if it's not as perfect as depicted.

I'm sure he's actually quite good. I mean, even doing just trick shots require a certain degree of skill, it isn't something a newbie would be able to accomplish.
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Offline jdale

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2015, 04:14:41 PM »
I can't read the post on Facebook (are there material parts worth quoting here?) but the Snopes article seems reasonable. Confirms highly rehearsed, multiple takes. I would expect that, it doesn't detract in my opinion.
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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2015, 06:53:19 PM »
I think the whole thing is worth a read. I tried finding it other than a facebook post. It's by Anna Maltese, who I guess is a pretty famous archer.   Here's the article:
Quote from: Anna Maltese
So, guys, first of all, thank you for posting the video/tagging me in it.  That's wonderfully thoughtful of you all.  At last count, it's up to nine (Edit: thirteen) times I've either been tagged or had it posted on my wall, and that's a lot of times for one post, and effort on the part of my friends.  To emphasize this point - I am quite chuffed that my friends thought of me so much when they saw it, much less ask me what I think about it.  And since it's a lot of posts to go through, instead of repeating several times what I did in one, I'll just respond here.

The video raises a lot of questions. Not that the guy isn't good at what he does, because he is - though he's not the best - but it's sloppy about what it asserts as "historically accurate" and "best."

First off, this is what we call 'trick shooting.' Not in the sense of an illusion or fakery, but like stunts. So, keep that in mind.

* Now to the first point: judging what was "historically accurate" by what ancient images show isn't actually the best method by which to judge historical accuracy. There are countless representations of archery today - in photos, in comic books, and in film *cough*JeremyRenner*cough* - which depict what would be incredibly poor skill IRL...even, in the case of Renner, completely impossible, physics-wise, for the arrow to get to where he wants it to. And it's simply because the artist wasn't involved in archery. So even with all of our modern ability to analyze form and technique, artists still get it wrong and actors can still be terrible at it.

* Second, the 'catching the arrow' in midair isn't going to hew to historical accuracy, either. It's what we call a 'trick shot.' Mythbusters tackled that one, and to catch an arrow the bow has to be very, very light and it can't be drawn back to a normal anchor point. If it's close by, if the shot is practiced, if the bow is very light, if it's drawn shallowly, and *if* everything lines up, then it can be done. But it's not "historically accurate" or possible with a normal draw because at full draw the arrow will rip/burn the skin of the catcher's hand clean away from friction due to it's speed. The person shooting the arrow that Lars catches isn't shown in the video, so we don't know how they were doing it.

Keep in mind that if people are going to be doing this trick, regardless of how far or little they draw back, it's the sort of thing that needs to be rehearsed with a partner in order to get it right, as Mythbusters demonstrated. It's definitely not reliable in a chaotic battle as arrows are going to be flying in from many different directions at speeds too high - and completely unrehearsed with a trusted partner - to catch.

* Third, the narration asserts a lot about the placement of the arrow on the bow shelf. The reason the arrow is usually shot by the opposite hand from the side of the bow it's resting on is that the physics of the Archer's Paradox make sure that the arrow is going to fly in a straight trajectory after bending around the riser.  Now, it's true that there are many traditions of same-side shooting - notably, the Mongolian style with thumb ring.  Lars incorporates this into his style on account of wanting to speed up the shot sequence.  But whether it's necessary for speed is up for debate.  In many other types of archery, same-side shooting is going to make the arrow fly off to the side at longer distances, but up close - like from the distances Lars is shooting - it's probably not going to be that much of a problem. However, archery - especially in warfare - wasn't always up close. Also, the archers don't shoot "on the right" or "on the left." They shoot with the draw hand of their dominant eye, whichever that eye is. However, since Lars isn't drawing back to any anchor, that's not an issue.

* Fourth, he's using a 35# (35 - pound draw weight) bow; that'll give him an easy pull. This would not have done much damage to an armored fighter.  He's also not even drawing it back fully, so the weight is going to be even less than 35#.  (This will also help him with the 'catching the arrow in midair trick shot - the weight might be as little as 25#, depending on how far back the other bow is drawn.)  Most archers these days who hunt with traditional, non-compound bows shoot with at least a 35# for some (unarmored) game, but more likely with at least a #40 and more likely a 50#.  British archers in warfare often pulled as much as 100# because they relied on distance shooting in warfare. So, historical accuracy is out the window for this aspect, because war bows have a heavier pull.

* Fifth: the video asserts that the back quiver was a "myth." Tell that to this guy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Samurai_on_horseback.png

Neither the back quiver nor the hip quiver was a "myth." Every culture had a place to store their arrows, and that was often a quiver. It makes sense, if you need to have both your hands free. Some bows have the quivers built onto the riser, and some archers didn't use them so much. But it all depended on the time and place and period, and method of battle.

There is and was no universal "right way," because every culture had different needs for archery in war, in battle, and in hunting at different times in their history.

Can you imagine how Agincourt would have turned out if the British had had to rely on this type of archery, instead of their traditional style, which is what saved their bacon?  Or can you imagine how the Mongols would have succeeded in their adventures had they adopted the British method of using the longbow?

* The narrator asserts a lot of other vague things about what was historical and even things which are done today, making it sound like these techniques were universal when in fact there were and still are many, many different techniques of archery. There always have been. How the bow is held, how the arrow is nocked, how it's drawn, how it's anchored/not anchored, stringwalking techniques, finger releases, dead releases, how the arrows were stored, whether the bow and technique was designed for infantry or cavalry, whether it was for hunting or warfare...all of these things varied across cultures and periods of history. The narration seems to ignore all of that and just lump all of human archery history together in "this is how it was done" without specifying particularly who, when, and where.

* Yet another assertion the video makes is that archers in one specific time period were required to be able to split an arrow.  That in itself is a myth.  Most arrows were made of wood at that time (nearly all, in fact) and wood doesn't split evenly down the length due to its grain.  It'll shear off pieces, but won't split clean.  Mythbusters did that one too.  What you can do today is called "Robin-Hooding" or "Maid-Marioning," with a carbon arrow, which is where the second arrow hits the first right on the money and sticks itself partway inside the first. 

The second arrow then buys breakfast for the first arrow the next morning.

It also asserts that most archers shoot with only one eye open, and he's revolutionizing the practice by keeping both open.  Let me correct that: 

Archers don't close the other eye when they shoot.  We keep both open always.

* Another problem I have with the video is the QVC-like nature of some of the clips - especially where he's supposedly demonstrating how awful it is to draw arrows from a quiver, or run around with arrows in a quiver on your back getting caught in trees.

If it was this problematic for archers, we wouldn't use a quiver at all.  Archery is about what works.

And to quibble over a technicality here on that point...the type of shooting he's demonstrating from representations of the Scythians would have typically done in open-air battles with lots of grassland space (called 'light horse archery' - which I'll get to in a moment) and room to maneuver.  There weren't a whole lot of tree branches getting in the way.

Even the way Lars pretends to mess up on the nock and draw when demonstrating how supposedly difficult it is to speed shoot from the other side has to be for comical effect - I can't seriously believe he is trying to convince people that it's that difficult.  Pulling from the other side is pretty standard due to the physics of the Archer's Paradox.  If it was problematic we'd drop it.  Like everything else in archery, practice makes perfect.  I'm not a speed shooter, but I've got my draw technique down to a speed that I can complete my shot before other, less-experienced archers have finished nocking their arrow.  And there are other traditional archers who can outshoot me like that because they're that much faster than me.  And others to them.

I am not discrediting his skill at what he does. It's basically trick shooting, of a style that he created. Historically speaking, aspects of it might be serviceable in light horse archery - basically, engaging in skirmishes like the Scythians or Huns. Coming in fast and then peeling away rapidly. Not in tight military formation or heavy horse archery with tight discipline. Japan had heavy horse archery, for instance, shooting volleys from horseback at a distance and then charging. The Mongols had both light and heavy horse archery and used it depending on their needs. It was not used in medieval British warfare, nor in many other styles which didn't come in close for skirmishes.

The assertions of historical accuracy in the video aren't reliable.  The style of trick shooting he does can be entertaining, however.  So basically, my objections are with the assertions and sloppy historical broad-brushing rather than the archer's results.

Of course, that's just my opinion.  I hope it makes sense.

Thank you, everyone.  And please keep posting and tagging me in these videos - I love getting them!
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Offline jdale

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2015, 09:11:38 PM »
I think the whole thing is worth a read. I tried finding it other than a facebook post. It's by Anna Maltese, who I guess is a pretty famous archer.   Here's the article:

Thanks, it was a good read, and very reasonable. There are a bunch of points that are very sensible so I have nothing to say about them.

Quote
Quote from: Anna Maltese
* Third, the narration asserts a lot about the placement of the arrow on the bow shelf. The reason the arrow is usually shot by the opposite hand from the side of the bow it's resting on is that the physics of the Archer's Paradox make sure that the arrow is going to fly in a straight trajectory after bending around the riser.  Now, it's true that there are many traditions of same-side shooting - notably, the Mongolian style with thumb ring.  Lars incorporates this into his style on account of wanting to speed up the shot sequence.  But whether it's necessary for speed is up for debate.  In many other types of archery, same-side shooting is going to make the arrow fly off to the side at longer distances, but up close - like from the distances Lars is shooting - it's probably not going to be that much of a problem. However, archery - especially in warfare - wasn't always up close. Also, the archers don't shoot "on the right" or "on the left." They shoot with the draw hand of their dominant eye, whichever that eye is. However, since Lars isn't drawing back to any anchor, that's not an issue.

The Mongolian style isn't necessarily Mongolian, doesn't necessarily use a thumb ring, and is very widespread. The flying off the side issue is simply not present with the thumb release, bringing that up suggests she is (not surprisingly) trained in western-style finger release and has little exposure to thumb release (which is true of most western archers). There is an argument that thumb release is generally faster, it maybe helps a little that the arrows start on the right side of the bow, but the real advantage Lars is using, I think, is holding multiple arrows in the hand. It does help quite a bit. I haven't seen anything to suggest it's commonly done anywhere in current practice. For regular target shooting there's no point. I don't know whether it's really historically common as Lars claims. Certainly you would also carry a quiver because there's a limit to how many arrows you can hold in your hand at once, and sometimes you need your hands free. The point he should be making, and handles very poorly, is that you wouldn't necessarily be drawing arrows from that quiver one by one with each shot.

She also mentions he isn't drawing back to an anchor point, which others have criticized as sloppy technique, but it's typical of Mongolian archery.

Quote
Quote
* Fourth, he's using a 35# (35 - pound draw weight) bow; that'll give him an easy pull. This would not have done much damage to an armored fighter.  He's also not even drawing it back fully, so the weight is going to be even less than 35#.  (This will also help him with the 'catching the arrow in midair trick shot - the weight might be as little as 25#, depending on how far back the other bow is drawn.)  Most archers these days who hunt with traditional, non-compound bows shoot with at least a 35# for some (unarmored) game, but more likely with at least a #40 and more likely a 50#.  British archers in warfare often pulled as much as 100# because they relied on distance shooting in warfare. So, historical accuracy is out the window for this aspect, because war bows have a heavier pull.

It's definitely true that using a light bow helps the speed as she says.

But the English longbow is the exception when it comes to war bows. 50-60 lbs draw is more typical in other cultures. So, although his bow is light, it shouldn't be read that it's only a third of combat strength.

Quote
Quote
Can you imagine how Agincourt would have turned out if the British had had to rely on this type of archery, instead of their traditional style, which is what saved their bacon?  Or can you imagine how the Mongols would have succeeded in their adventures had they adopted the British method of using the longbow?

This sounds like very western bias to me. Really, although the English longbow is a very heavy draw, the recurve design is more efficient and composite construction provided its own advantages. If the Mongols had all been given English longbows, they would have had to get off their horses and probably would have been slaughtered. After all, they did not lose because of poor military technology, they lost because their leader died and they all had to go home to figure out his successor.

Meanwhile, if the English had Mongol composite bows, they probably would have died too because composite bows don't tolerate rainy (English) weather nearly as well as self bows. In sunny weather... some have argued the longbowmen were more effective against cavalry at Agincourt by shooting the lightly armored horses, more than the mounted knights themselves. Would have worked out the same with Mongol bows. Against the heavily armored infantry, Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt describes the battle this way:

The plate armour of the French men-at-arms allowed them to close the 300 yards or so to the English lines while being under what the French monk of Saint Denis described as "a terrifying hail of arrow shot".... Modern historians are somewhat divided on how effective the longbow fire would have been against plate armour of the time, with some modern texts suggesting that arrows could not penetrate, especially the better quality steel armour, but others suggesting arrows could penetrate, especially the poorer quality wrought iron armour. Rogers suggests that the longbow could penetrate a wrought iron breastplate at short range and penetrate the thinner armour on the limbs even at 220 yards (200 m). He considers a knight in the best quality steel armour would have been more or less invulnerable to an arrow on the breastplate or top of the helmet, but would still have been vulnerable to shots hitting the limbs, particularly at close range.[47] In any case, to protect themselves as much as possible from the arrows the French had to lower their visors and bend their helmeted heads to avoid being shot in the face—the eye and air-holes in their helmets were among the weakest points in the armour. This head lowered position restricted both their breathing and their vision. Then they had to walk a few hundred yards through thick mud, a press of comrades and wearing armour weighing 50–60 pounds (23–27 kg). Increasingly they had to walk around or over fallen comrades.[48]

The surviving French men-at-arms reached the front of the English line and pushed it back, with the longbowmen on the flanks continuing to shoot at point blank range. When the archers ran out of arrows they dropped their bows and using hatchets, swords and the mallets they had used to drive their stakes in, attacked the now disordered, fatigued and wounded French men-at-arms massed in front of them. The French could not cope with the thousands of lightly armoured longbowmen assailants (who were much less hindered by the mud and weight of their armour) combined with the English men-at-arms. The impact of thousands of arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers meant the French men-at-arms could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line.


Sounds to me like they would have done fine with Mongol bows.
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Offline markc

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2015, 09:29:55 PM »

jdale: 1) I do not remember but was not weather a factor at Agincourt? If so then the comp bows would have de-laminated like it has been previously said on many occasions.
 2) Also as people have said in various articles and discussions target distance, what you are trying to achieve (effect), your skill and other factors (target considerations, weather, materials, arrow composition, etc) is very important.
 3) I am not an archer but I can say as a once very good dart thrower that changing your throwing grip can be a huge difference and I often had to take quite a bit of time to adjust from soft tip darts to hard tip darts as I threw a lot heavier hard tip dart. But after sometime having started at steel tip darts I became a much better soft tip darts player as for some reason the doubles and triples just seemed to be bigger on the board to me. 
  Unfortunately since my two back surgeries I never have been able to get back close to where I once was in terms of accuracy or precision.   


All in all I like the new info but I do think the trick shooting has it place in a limited scope of things. 
  But again I am no expert.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2015, 01:38:39 AM »
I could be wrong, but I don't think a Mongol bow would fire an arrow that could penetrate armor from up to 300 yards.  So they would have potentially been more effective close up, but you'd give up the ability to fire more arrows at the incoming forces, which is a far preferable situation given Euro style combats (i.e. line up and march/run).  I think the longbow and the mongol bow are suited to very different situations.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2015, 05:08:33 AM »
the real advantage Lars is using, I think, is holding multiple arrows in the hand. It does help quite a bit. I haven't seen anything to suggest it's commonly done anywhere in current practice. For regular target shooting there's no point. I don't know whether it's really historically common as Lars claims. Certainly you would also carry a quiver because there's a limit to how many arrows you can hold in your hand at once, and sometimes you need your hands free. The point he should be making, and handles very poorly, is that you wouldn't necessarily be drawing arrows from that quiver one by one with each shot.

It's a technique used in some part of the world in horseback archery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOpOqgotJZc&list=PLE7EFF668D0C39DEA&index=19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOWeU9R1vBs&list=PLE7EFF668D0C39DEA&index=2

I'm no expert, but I think its usage in history varied wildly, depending on period, culture and type of warfare.

About the mongolian bow (again, no expert here, just tangential knowledge coming from my main field of study): yes, one of the main tactics of the mongolian army included closing up to the enemy and shooting a load of arrows point-blank (to open the way for their heavy cavalry).
But they also shot from distance with deadly accuracy.
Also, remember that the Jin, Song and Xia knew and used metal armor (mainly chain and lamellar, but plate wasn't uneard of, even if it probably wasn't as heavy as the european), and still they were defeated by the mongols.
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Offline Merkir

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2015, 05:54:18 PM »
Personally I think the 10 second round is too long for anything. Being able to move 250' in a round exceeds the entire span of the typical combat environment. I like 5 seconds for fantasy and 2 seconds for modern. 5 seconds is still a long time for a gunfight, but 2 seconds means that reloading a crossbow basically makes you sit out the rest of the battle....

Very much agree. Running RMC with it's two 50% phases makes for some quite silly situations, where a character can completely run out of range of some ranged weapons before the missile can be thrown/fired. I've said many times in other threads that characters can (quite literally) run rings around an entire melee with little or no repercussions. At least it makes for a good cinematic visual, albeit an amusing one.

PC with spear asks, "Do I really have to wait 5-10 seconds before I can throw my spear at that fleeing Orc?"
GM: "Yes, so don't bother, the Orc is out of range now"

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: A new level of archery
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2015, 06:03:05 PM »
This latest discussion is a perfect example of why I do not consider % action a finite length of time within a given round (nor, imo, did the designers of the rounds previous to RMU) and why I like the phased movement restrictions in RMSS better than any of the other RM rounds (i.e. up to 20% movement in snap, 50% in normal, 80% in deliberate).
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss