Author Topic: Call me old fashioned...  (Read 8407 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2016, 02:45:46 PM »
I believe it has been said that that will be changing.

I think my single biggest issue is the lack of capability between RMU and the previous versions, which is too bad because that's likely to stop me from buying bits and pieces that I otherwise would have even if not switching.  Will have to wait and see how some of the expansion books work out, but that's probably years away.

Aside from the hit point issue, which I think is being at least partially addressed, what specifically would prevent compatibility? The armor types are different but relatively easy to adjust. OBs and DBs should be roughly similar (with RMU having a bit of DB inflation, to be sure, but not so much I think that it couldn't work). What else do you think would prevent compatibility?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2016, 04:11:23 PM »
Some possible points of incompatibility include the healing spells, the structure of the combat round (e.g. action points) and how spells target it (e.g. haste giving bonus AP). There are other things like the typical skill bonus or PP for character of a given level, but those already varied quite a bit between RM2/RMC and RMSS/RMFRP, I don't think RMU is really beyond that spread. For that matter, RMSS has spells that talk about snap actions etc that are specific to the RMSS combat round.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2016, 10:57:14 AM »
Aside from the hit point issue, which I think is being at least partially addressed, what specifically would prevent compatibility?

In terms of RMSS what DON'T you have to convert?  Weapon Tables (longer) and Armors (less of them) are different.  Combined skills aren't that big a deal to convert, however skill cost changes (more problematic), and number of DP's per level (less so) result in different power levels.  Talents have been turned into skills and skills have been turned into talents. Creatures appear to not actually reflect their level unless you spend their spare DP (you often need to finish building them for them to reflect their level) so why wouldn't I just continue to use the old Creatures and Monsters?  Rounds work different.  For other RM users there are even more differences, but are things that I've already modified for RMSS (like profession bonuses, Every/Occ/Restrict skills, etc).  The thing I was still potentially looking forward to were the spell lists, but so many spells have been modified in how they work (Healing, spells that effect the round, spells that impact skills, Haste, etc) that even this is going to require re-writing many of them.

There's enough of RMSS I like better that I wouldn't use RMU as as system, which leaves me looking to back convert things from it, but there's nothing substantial I can get out of RMU at this point to back convert.  The stuff that I like would require re-working anyhow (spell lists) at which point why not just continue rework RMSS myself?  RM2 and RMSS work enough alike that there are a good number of things you can pull from one to the other fairly easily.  That likely facilitated converting more users.  RM2 and RMSS users bought materials that were easily used in the other.  I'm not seeing much of that in RMU (and I think it's going to be a liability).
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Offline jdale

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2016, 12:29:04 PM »
I'm not sure why you would want to convert the weapon tables and armors. Use the ones from the edition you are playing in. The only place that's an issue is if you want to use a table from the companions (e.g. Void Ball) in RMU. Those will come in the RMU companions.

The power level differences between RMSS and RM2 even at 1st level are so extreme that mixing character generation systems is not going to work. Pick one system to build characters. You can easily take skills from one edition to another, though. If taking skills from previous editions into RMU or RMSS, you just have to assign them to a category. Going into RM2 you need to assign costs. Taking professions into RMU, you would essentially just design a new profession based on the original one, but at least there is a system for doing so. When converting a profession from RM2 to RMSS, you likewise have to come up with all the costs and details, but there was very little guidance.

Creatures and Monsters has a greater mismatch between levels and abilities than RMU's CrL, the difference is that the stats are just made up, it's not as apparent. I mean, would you rather fight a gray gratar, greater giant skeleton, or thauredhel? Do you suppose those are balanced against each other? All 12th level.

With regard to the spell lists, healing is an issue, but those lists exist in previous editions so the need to convert them is questionable. The number of spell lists that actually depend on the combat round is minimal, and that issue likewise existed going between RM2 and RMSS. The majority of spell lists will translate with no issues. I've been heavily using RM2 and RMSS spell lists in RMU already. I've been tweaking them for setting but the only place I've run into significant rule incompatibilities was the transition from beta 1 to beta 2 since RMU changed its own combat round. Of course I'm only using lists from RM2 and RMSS when there is not already an equivalent list in RMU.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2016, 03:01:30 PM »
I guess for me I was thinking of compatibility more in terms of, 'Can I still use all those old Shadow World and Middle Earth modules?' And I think that for the most part, I can. I may have to start the PCs at level 3, but the OBs, DBs, hits, etc. should still be alright. So for me, I don't see any insurmountable difficulties.

If you were trying to convert characters from RM2 to RMSS or something like that, they yeah, I see where you would have some problems.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2016, 05:12:24 PM »
I'm not sure why you would want to convert the weapon tables and armors. Use the ones from the edition you are playing in.
You don't between RMSS and RMU.  That's the point.  I can mostly use RM2/RMSS ones interchangeably.  I can't do that with RMU.  I probably wouldn't use the RMU materials in an RM2 or RMSS game as a result.  I would say I'd look into if RMU tables could work due to being expanded, however there is far less selection and, more importantly I despise how the size rules work which impacts weapons.

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The power level differences between RMSS and RM2 even at 1st level are so extreme that mixing character generation systems is not going to work. Pick one system to build characters.
Why on Earth would I try mix characters built using RM2 and RMSS?  No offense, but that's a huge 'duh'.

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You can easily take skills from one edition to another, though. If taking skills from previous editions into RMU or RMSS, you just have to assign them to a category. Going into RM2 you need to assign costs.
Right, as I said, not a big deal to convert, just add or remove category assignment if I want to move from a category system to an individual one.  Skill costs and DP provided are the bigger issue.

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Taking professions into RMU, you would essentially just design a new profession based on the original one, but at least there is a system for doing so.  When converting a profession from RM2 to RMSS, you likewise have to come up with all the costs and details, but there was very little guidance.
Exactly, I would have to redesign RMSS professions to use in RMU.  I've already done much of this from RM2 to RMSS, but in most cases I just took a RMSS profession and tweaked it a bit.  If RMU came out with professions I didn't already have they could be useful.  If they had spell lists I didn't need to convert, more so.  The first is unlikely for many years.  The second is a distant possibility.  But how many spell lists will be in the base RMU that I can't already find in RMSS and RMU?  How long before new ones come out that aren't based on those?  How many of those won't have spells that hinge on RMU mechanics that I need to tweak?

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Creatures and Monsters has a greater mismatch between levels and abilities than RMU's CrL, the difference is that the stats are just made up, it's not as apparent. I mean, would you rather fight a gray gratar, greater giant skeleton, or thauredhel? Do you suppose those are balanced against each other? All 12th level.
I appreciate the time that went into the RMU Creatures and Monsters, but I think that book is a mess in terms of how it seems to have been forced into the design theory of everything else.  Talents and flaw costs seemed very inconsistent (very similar talents/flaws had very different costs) and I suspect were often eye-balled in order to make the creature fit the level (talents/flaws seem to basically have been made up to fit the DP requirement for the desired creature level) and not the other way around.  The formatting of those also results in too much page flipping and I don't see that changing since that would result in repeat information in an already massive book (even if split).  They (everything) have levels, but often times those levels are partially based on DP they have not spent, which means they aren't necessarily really that level until you finish them... which seems to defeat the purpose.  I won't even get into the size rules, we'd need a page for that.  In a nut shell, I think someone did a lot of nice work on the book with what they were given, but what they were given was a single shaped hole that they had to force all kinds of various shaped creatures through.

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With regard to the spell lists, healing is an issue, but those lists exist in previous editions so the need to convert them is questionable. The number of spell lists that actually depend on the combat round is minimal, and that issue likewise existed going between RM2 and RMSS. The majority of spell lists will translate with no issues.
There are multiple factors when trying to convert spell lists because spells can impact so much of the mechanics in the system.  They can effect all the various skills, weapons/armor/combat, healing, etc.  As an overall piece of RM the spells have a hand in everything.  RM has always been a complex system where messing with one piece of it often has an impact on other parts.   RMU has changed character build, weapon and armor balance, skills/talents/flaws, round structure, movement, size rules, spell effects, etc.

Stop and look at it this way:   Although it's better than Beta 1, I still don't like the round (actions vs movement is still too wonky).  I don't like the way creatures are built with talents/flaws I have to look up and are not just listed with them and that they aren't finished (left over DP).  I don't like the size rules.  None of those things are easily removed/replaced due to the interconnected balance of things.  So if I continue to use RMSS they would hope I would still buy RMU materials to back-covert.  So, what do I pull from older RM's?  Weapon tables, crit tables, spell lists, maybe creatures.  Can't use RMU Weapons.  Last time I looked I didn't like the RMU crit tables, they are unlikely to come out with ones I don't already have for a long time and even then they SHOULD now be balanced to different weapon tables and armors.  Creatures are a mess.  Spell lists can be moved back IF there are new ones and IF they aren't tied to things like round mechanics, healing, haste, weapon/armor balance, etc.  I like that they are filled in, but it doesn't do me much good if I've already done this myself with essentially the same list from older RM's.

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If you were trying to convert characters from RM2 to RMSS or something like that, they yeah, I see where you would have some problems.
And if you're trying to retain your existing fan base...?  You're counting on them largely tossing everything they've already done.
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Offline Malleable

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2016, 06:15:53 AM »
Yeah, I'm really confused on why RMU went the direction it did. 
It feels like change for changes sake. 
I don't know that the changes make any improvements to the system.
And I see several things that I do not like with RMU, so I don't see a reason to move to it - and I'm the guy who would normally buy every product put out by ICE.

Mal

Offline Hurin

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2016, 12:35:53 PM »
Yeah, I'm really confused on why RMU went the direction it did. 
It feels like change for changes sake. 
I don't know that the changes make any improvements to the system.
And I see several things that I do not like with RMU, so I don't see a reason to move to it - and I'm the guy who would normally buy every product put out by ICE.

Mal

I agree there are some changes made that seem only for the sake of change, or to address problems that my group at least never experienced. These include Directed Spell being put in the Combat Training category, Adrenal Defense being made a talent rather than a skill, and a few others.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2016, 04:58:39 PM »
These include Directed Spell being put in the Combat Training category, Adrenal Defense being made a talent rather than a skill, and a few others.

Both of which are being changed -- Directed Spells will be in Power Manipulation, and Adrenal Defense will be a skill in Body Discipline.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2016, 08:37:38 PM »
i  the case of the RMU Combat Tables,

I may prefer them and use them in my RM2 game, I am still on the fence for all the other game changes.

I like the Change that Success Must be 100 or better on the tables... Not the Idea that Regardless of what happens, you can't miss Hitting a guy in plate... which is completely unrealistic and has been one of My personal concerns/Modifications to the original RM/RMSS combat tables.

I don't see why one couldn't use the RMU tables (with some house rules to account for the armor changes) in an RM classic or RMSS game?
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Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2017, 12:31:46 AM »
I prefer RM2. I tried RMU & it was a disaster. Once it is finally out I might like it better but I'll be running RMX & the graduate to RMC once I get the books for the future. RM2 is what I played for several years after I got back into role playing. I prefer RM but can't run or play RMSS/RMRPG or RMU. I really DETEST RMU's AP system, it was jarring having to fuss with the varied counts. As long as RMU has the AP system as its core mechanic I'll never run or play it again. With RMSS/RMRPG just didn't have the style I preferred compared to RM2, I didn't like the whole training packages & cultures. One of the things I liked about RMU was how they did cultures, it reminded me of Cyberspace.
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Offline Malim

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2017, 03:48:04 AM »
We also still hang on to RM2 with alot of house rules!
For me personally, i better like GURPS for its flexible system in all matters! 4Th edition is really well tuned.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2017, 10:16:13 AM »
I prefer RM2. I tried RMU & it was a disaster. Once it is finally out I might like it better but I'll be running RMX & the graduate to RMC once I get the books for the future. RM2 is what I played for several years after I got back into role playing. I prefer RM but can't run or play RMSS/RMRPG or RMU. I really DETEST RMU's AP system, it was jarring having to fuss with the varied counts. As long as RMU has the AP system as its core mechanic I'll never run or play it again. With RMSS/RMRPG just didn't have the style I preferred compared to RM2, I didn't like the whole training packages & cultures. One of the things I liked about RMU was how they did cultures, it reminded me of Cyberspace.

Can you expand on what you mean by 'varied counts' with RMU's AP system? They have made some changes recently and you might find you like it more.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2017, 11:16:34 AM »
I've spent more time with RMSS, than any other version. There was very little that I thought needed tweaking (other than presentation of the character sheet to a player friendly format).

RM2... well, had some "gap" that I thought needed house-rules for. From what I'm hearing here, I'm not the only one and don't appear to be that many that played it RAW anyway... most used elements from the various Companions.

O.K. So RMSS had it's "Companions" too.. but apart from confusion in the presentation of categories/skills not much changed rules wise there wasn't any great changes to the "basics".

As for RMU... hmmm. I'm not jumping off any wagons yet.. to me it has too many changes at a basic level to make it compatible enough with either of RM2 or RMSS to make fans of either particularly enthusiastic about changing from their preferred system. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but we'll see.... ATM  it has the feel of HARP about it.. which isn't a bad thing exactly but also feels like a waste of time since Harp already exists. 

Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2017, 02:53:32 AM »
I prefer RM2. I tried RMU & it was a disaster. Once it is finally out I might like it better but I'll be running RMX & the graduate to RMC once I get the books for the future. RM2 is what I played for several years after I got back into role playing. I prefer RM but can't run or play RMSS/RMRPG or RMU. I really DETEST RMU's AP system, it was jarring having to fuss with the varied counts. As long as RMU has the AP system as its core mechanic I'll never run or play it again. With RMSS/RMRPG just didn't have the style I preferred compared to RM2, I didn't like the whole training packages & cultures. One of the things I liked about RMU was how they did cultures, it reminded me of Cyberspace.

Can you expand on what you mean by 'varied counts' with RMU's AP system? They have made some changes recently and you might find you like it more.

I think I misworded that but it is how I think of it. I hate going through initiative having everyone declare initiative on their 1st AP count, then on their 2nd AP count the perform their action & if able to they can then do other stuff as the AP count winds down. Then go through it over again. I prefer the older RMC initiative - short actions first & then long actions, all using the same initiative order. Plus you declare everything before the initiative roll. Hell I prefer the old RM2 default initiative set up better.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2017, 02:23:35 PM »

I think I misworded that but it is how I think of it. I hate going through initiative having everyone declare initiative on their 1st AP count, then on their 2nd AP count the perform their action & if able to they can then do other stuff as the AP count winds down. Then go through it over again. I prefer the older RMC initiative - short actions first & then long actions, all using the same initiative order. Plus you declare everything before the initiative roll. Hell I prefer the old RM2 default initiative set up better.

Thanks for explaining that. Remember though that you can always vary the AP count in RMU to better suit your group, and to try to approximate whichever system you prefer. If for example you count down by 2 AP at a time rather than 1, that will give you a system that essentially has a short action phase (for all actions costing up to 2 AP) first, and then a long action phase (for actions up to 4 AP) second. Currently, in my group, we actually just have a singe phase for all 4 AP worth of actions, which gives us a simplified round much like the DnD round.

That won't give you exactly the round you prefer, but it would be more like the one you want.

Also, we always use the same initiative order from action phase to action phase and round to round. I know that is not for everyone -- some people prefer to reroll initiative every phase and round -- but it works for us, and there's no reason you can't do that in RMU too.

Note I am assuming you are using the new RMU round structure that has been outlined since beta 2. In the new system, you no longer have to subtract 5 from your initiative for each action point you spend. The system is much simpler now: just count down by action point (whether 1, 2, or 4, depending on which you prefer).
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Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2017, 05:55:34 PM »
Yes it was the one in Beta 2, but I still prefer RMC/2. I might incorporate a few things I like from RMU but NOT the AP system.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2017, 08:49:08 PM »
Ok, fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the system that is in Beta2 has been simplified since Beta2 was released. You no longer have to count down by increments of 5 to resolve your attacks. You just go by action phase, which corresponds to 1 AP being spent. I think you are using that modified system, but I did just want to note that modifications have been made to the Beta2 system since it was released.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2017, 04:30:39 PM »
One trick to getting a player to develop a trade/craft is to have it determine part of their initial money.  So, for each rank in a trade/craft skill add a silver piece or something similar.

I like that idea.  Might have to steal it  ;)

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Call me old fashioned...
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2017, 05:24:10 PM »
I remember long ago when RMSS was first being rolled out, there was an article in the Guild Companion talking about the future of RM & what improvements should/shouldn't be looked at (sort of like the process we are going through now with RMU).  The author of the article noted that he saw RM not as a Role Playing Game but a Role Playing Game Construction System.  His reasoning was that, yes there is a Core set of rules in RM2 (ChL; A&CL; SL & C&T) with a ton of options.  It is all these options (that all of us have used or not over the last few decades) that give RM its enduring character & feel.  I remember the auther citing a situation where a new player joined his group claiming to be an old hand at playing RM.  So, not thinking, the Author told the new player to make a PC & join the group.  Well, the new player used a ton of optional rules that the Author didn't - to the point where the PC the new player had done up wasn't compatible with the Author's game.  It was this situation that made him realize that every single RM2 game was going to be different because of all the options available.  As such, he saw RM2 as a RPG Consturction Tool.

RMSS was a definate attempt at making a single system (hence the name "Standard System") & it (IMHO) achieved this.  Personally, I don't like some of the rules (smoothed stat bonuses for one) but it was compatible enough with RM2 that one could use portions of either system interchangably.  A sort of RM-Frankenstein that I have come to be quite proud of in my own uses of this wonderful RPG System.  But I always thought: you know, RM2 really could be one set of rules if you wanted.  If you just followed the RAW in those four core RM2 books without any of the options (which I think RMX attempted to do), you have a very simple,  playable & realistic FRPG.

I've yet to delve too far into RMU, but I was under the impression (rightly or falsely) that it was supposed to take the best of both systems & make a truly unified game.  Instead, it seems with RMU we have a third set of rules, one which is even further from being compatible with previous versions, that will only cement more division between various "camps".  Albeit, RMU is still in Beta stage & far from being in its final form. And I understand that picking & choosing things from each system to make just one system is much easier said than done.  But I wonder - why put all this effort into further division in the hopes of bringing people together?  Why not just acknowledge the true marvel that RM gives us all - a system to create our own fantasy/sci-fi worlds (when you include SM) & a system that allows us to mold the rules to fit our worlds in the best way.  Yes, it means as GMs we need to have a "Here's My House Rules Player Guide PDF" for every player that wants to join our games.  But will one ruleset truly fit the vision of every GM using the system?  Will GMs not continue to tweak & change rules to fit their worlds anyway?  So why fight it?  Build that into the system (as RM2 did).  Accept that it is going to happen & create products to support our type of GMs that revel in tweaking rules & mechanics in order to make the system work best for their world.  After all, as a GM who has put the time into creating a world or a campaign, the last thing you need is for an unbending ruleset to hamper your vision.  Right?

But then again, this is: IMHO.  I am certain there are those of you out there who will disagree.  That's good.  You should.  Becuase your vision of RM is not exactly the same as mine, nor is it exactly the same as anyone elses.  As it should be!

Keep rolling those 66's  8)

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