Author Topic: Are you or your players "min / maxers"  (Read 2131 times)

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Offline Dragonking11

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Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« on: November 08, 2017, 11:54:27 AM »
As a player, I generally love to spend quite a lot of time thinking on how to build my characters. I like to try to come up with skill synergies and try to max them at character generation. This helps me build the character in future level-ups as my main skills are already identified and I know "where" I want my character to be in the future

As a GM, some of my players prefer to just play the game, not thinking about all the details. They would prefer to build a character in minutes instead of hours and improvise their build paths as they go along

If you could have easily accessible "pre-build" character templates, would you use them in RM ?

Offline Peter R

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 12:11:28 PM »
As a GM I tend to throw major story twists including sometimes major geographical shifts at the characters. So you may start off in a medieval European type setting but a disastrous storm at sea could have you washed up on the shores of an oriental nation. The journey home may be several years later and be via some arctic or jungle route.

If you have planned out your future level ups then you could seriously end up out of step with the entire world.

I have two min/maxers who play my game. One considers anything that is not perception/magic/combat oriented to be a waste of DPs and I take great pleasure in putting the character into predicaments where a wider range of skills would be useful. The other is a rules lawyer and rule bender always trying to squeeze the last possible advantage out of every option in character creation.

In my PBP game there are no levels and no DPs after character creation so you could not plan your future development in that way. The skills in use and the training your get decides which skills have a chance of improving.

When I create a character I tend to start with a back story and then buy the skills that would support that story. I have a tendency to buy single ranks in more skills per level rather than buying two ranks at the higher price when I play. Your actual OB/DB is completely irrelevant so there is no point in trying to get it as high as possible so I do not pay the premium for rapid development.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 12:23:20 PM »
I enjoy working with the numbers and making characters, so personally I would not look at templates and I do tend to try to maximize, although it's also important to get some personality and a background in there. For my RMSS character, I plan out skill purchases for next level but not beyond that. Skills sometimes need to be adjusted, e.g. picking up a language for a planned next destination. RM does not really push you to need a carefully plotted development path. There are some skills that make sense to develop early and consistently (less so in RMU because of how the expertise skills work) but there aren't prerequisite trees or anything like that. I also play in a D&D 3.5E campaign, and the structure of that system really pushes you to plan many levels ahead to achieve prereqs for prestige classes and the better feats.

I'm not sure whether my players would use templates. I feel like the ability to customize your character is a big strength of RM. But I could imagine them being useful for some players. I do like the training packages in RMSS/RMFRP for that purpose and because they help fill in backgrounds, although we really only use them for 1st level.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 02:54:46 PM »
As a player, I start out with the profession I'd like to play and an idea of what I'd like to do.  I roll the dice and get the stats and I get an idea of what weapon category I'd like and I start to piece together more ideas for background.  After the background options are rolled I take a look at the stat bonuses I have and the racial stat bonuses and get a better idea of what the character would be good at.  I'll take advantage of the higher bonuses vs. the skill costs.  Usually the final product is close to what I had envisioned.  Sometimes I end up down a completely different path because I rolled a +20 in Strength and my Burglar now has a strength bonus of +55.  I start to look at the skills that would benefit from a high strength instead of the agility scores I was hoping for originally.  I don't change the profession, but I try to take advantage of what the gods gave me.  Instead of the acrobatic-tightrope-walking-2nd story man, I have a Martial Arts Strikes-club-wielding-con-artist.

As a GM, I love when players take unusual skills because they have an idea for their character and I'll try to find ways to reward them for spending DPs on skills.  It encourages the other players to try new ideas, weird combinations for skills and makes for more interesting play.  A player took Architecture one time, so I tried to find ways for him to use architecture from finding false walls, hidden corridors, likely weak spots in walls, to recognizing clearstories with no floors to facades great for snipers to use.

The players to go solely hack-n-slash end up realizing that their character is woefully under-developed and it takes quite a while to start to flesh the PC out.  One-dimensional PCs are boring.

Personally, I can't stand PC templates.  One of the reasons I love RM is the incredible amount of freedom a player has when making a PC.  I do have a collection of character sheets I've made over the years, sheets from other players who are no longer gaming with us and such, and if I need a quick character for a new player to jump in, I can grab one of those sheets.  I also have Heroes and Rogues and that tome is fantastic!  NPC backgrounds, stats from level 1, 3, 5, 10, 15?  I forget the exact levels, but I've turned to that book plenty of times over the years.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 05:30:13 PM »
I admit that I am a min/maxxer; being overly competitive is one of my greatest flaws. But for me, part of the fun of an RPG is overcoming challenges through smart play, and for me smart play involves making viable and effective characters. I understand that you can take this too far and veer into munchkinism; but by the same token, I feel, GMs should try not to see people who work hard a building effective characters as trying to cheat or break the game. For some people, meeting the challenge of building effective characters is one of the best parts of the game.

Personally then, I don't rely on templates; I try to build the most effective character I can, while also trying to fit with the spirit of the game and the character concept, and respecting the lore. I spend some DP on out-of-combat skills and skills a character of my class and race would be expected to have, even if they are not immediately useful; but overall I prioritize the skills I think will allow my character to be effective in combat.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 04:26:45 AM »
With a simulation-heavy system like Rolemaster I really like the challenge of creating a character which is good at what he's supposed to do. So I'm definitely a min-maxer and the others in my group are like this too.

Offline Fingolfin80

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 06:41:37 AM »
As a master I don't like min-maxing, and generally I prefer to keep character creation as light as I can.
In our games we have a combat every two or three game sessions, maybe less, so being focused on only that makes your character unuseful the vast majority of time. More than that, you become monodimensional and unfun because if one player does this, basically everyone has to or they become either dependant on him or a burden to him when it comes to encounters.
That's why I use training packages to encourge the adoption of unusual skills and to speed up character creation, does that fall under your definitio of "templates"?

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 06:42:32 AM »
Anyone who plays any RP game and creates their own character is going to min/max.  Is there any player here who says "Wow, I have a great strength stat and a huge negative bonus in agility and I took an Elf so my SD is a big negative too.... I think I'll make an a Nightblade who uses a bow and thrown weapons."  No.  You're going to take advantage of the bonuses you have from your stats so your character can be decent, or you're going to put your best stat values into the stats that will best suit the character archetype you had envisioned.  If you do have a negative in a stat, you purchase extra ranks in the skill to offset that negative.  Intuition and Reasoning are low?  I'll buy extra ranks in General Perception to offset that negative so I can have a decent bonus.  Oh no, I've min/maxed!

I rolled the most mediocre character stats I've ever seen in the 20+ years of playing.  The highest stat was 92, thank God for the two Prime Req's so I could get two more 90's for free!  I kept all the stats, I kept the character, and I played him several times and had fun.  I still have the sheet in my folder when I need to grab a quick NPC or a new player wants to just jump into a session for a quick run.  Is it a phenomenal character? Not really, but he's fun to play.  I took advantage of the bonuses and purchased skills that would make it an effective character.

There have been comments about rules lawyers and bending rules to exploit flaws or quirks in the game.  To me, that is a far cry different from min/maxing.  That's taking things to an extreme and really (to me at least) breaking the spirit of the game.  "Well, if they didn't like this, then they should have fixed the rules."  Yeah, I have players like that.  They sit at the gaming table with their own copy of the book so they can rattle off the special obscure rule loophole that lets them cast 3 spells in 1 round while dual wielding and wearing full plate.  I think THAT type of player is what we all agree on as "un-fun."  Min/maxing in itself is not "evil" as I've seen in other posts and on other boards.

That other-popular-game system out there, used a character creation template system ( I forget what flavor it was), but the player had a set number of points to spend on the starting stats.  In the group of 7 players we had, the DM just said "Yeah, I don't need to know all the stats, just tell me where you put your 18, ST or DX, and is CH your 12?"  Wouldn't you know it... all the tanks had the 18 in ST, 12 in CH.  The Thiefly types had 18 in DX, 12 in CH.  The specllcaster had 18 in CH and 12 in ST."  <yawn>
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Offline Dragonking11

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »
Lot of good points here

I can say I'm a min-maxer as well, but I do not necessarily emphasize combat skills.

I like to come up with a good character concept and I try to build towards that concept. To illustrate this,  as a GM, with new or less experienced players, I often build a "test character" at first with them to show them (and explain along the way) the potential RM offers with its skill system.

For example, I like to use a known character such as "Bruenor Battlehammer" from the Forgotten Realms. Bruenor is a dwarf with good leadership, skilled in combat with an axe and shield. He is also a top notch craftman, able to create magical weapons within the dwarven forge. As I build the RM character to fit that lore, the new player sees immediately all the potential of the system and understand how it works.

Of course, at first level, that soon to be Bruenor character is far from the real one in term of skills (who should be at level 20+), but the "build path" is set and is now easier to follow in each level-up for the player. Of course, as Peter said, you need to sidetrack your ideal build path depending on the campaign and what your GM throw at you  ;D

Offline Dragonking11

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 07:12:39 AM »
As a master I don't like min-maxing, and generally I prefer to keep character creation as light as I can.
In our games we have a combat every two or three game sessions, maybe less, so being focused on only that makes your character unuseful the vast majority of time. More than that, you become monodimensional and unfun because if one player does this, basically everyone has to or they become either dependant on him or a burden to him when it comes to encounters.
That's why I use training packages to encourge the adoption of unusual skills and to speed up character creation, does that fall under your definitio of "templates"?

Actually my idea of character templates was more like, pre-build characters for let's say at least the popular archetypes: Fighter, Thief, Mage, etc.

A player could for example just print and use the character as is and start playing. Every first level of a particular template would be same. He would only begin to customize the build at level 2 and beyond with normal level-ups. Those kind of templates would of course not be aimed at experienced players. In my experience, new players are sometimes afraid to begin playing in a RM game as the initial learning curve is quite high. New player character creation can be a real pain and takes several hours, which is not fun for anyone.

Anyone who plays any RP game and creates their own character is going to min/max.  Is there any player here who says "Wow, I have a great strength stat and a huge negative bonus in agility and I took an Elf so my SD is a big negative too.... I think I'll make an a Nightblade who uses a bow and thrown weapons." 

My idea of min-maxers was not aimed at people how try to find loopholes in the rules (which is absolutely unfun as you put it) but more like trying to come up with the best possible character fitting a given concept (more like what Hurin said). To that end, a min-maxer will take hours to create his character as he will for example read every talents and flaws from the book and choose the very best one fitting his concept ... I refered to that kind of "fun" min-maxers !  :D

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 07:29:46 AM »

My idea of min-maxers was not aimed at people how try to find loopholes in the rules (which is absolutely unfun as you put it) but more like trying to come up with the best possible character fitting a given concept (more like what Hurin said). To that end, a min-maxer will take hours to create his character as he will for example read every talents and flaws from the book and choose the very best one fitting his concept ... I refered to that kind of "fun" min-maxers !  :D

Ah.  I see clearly now!  Given your explanation here, then I am most definitely a RM-min/maxer.  Even to the point that I'll keep the gods-awful stat rolls and still try to make a PC work.

I made up a "Professional" profession (Blacksmith) and a "Non-Professional" PC and I stuck with skills that would suit a Blacksmith.  It was really fun and the PC is actually a pretty good adventurer too.  The Non-Professional was a little more of a challenge but a great "Everyman" NPC to have handy.  Shopkeepers and local barflies work well for the Non-Professional I made so I gave him more skills in the Social and General categories.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 11:04:08 AM »
I should note that while I personally don't use templates, my players probably would -- especially the DnD players who aren't as well versed in Rolemaster.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 11:50:31 AM »
If you are talking about templates as pregen characters then I think these are essential to encourage new players in.

If a 'completely new to RM' group picked up the rules and wanted to play, at least their entire first session would be consumed by character creation. There would be no house rules to help them, no body of experience to guide them.

Pregen or template characters would get that group playing in minutes and give them a model upon which base their own character creations on in the future.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 11:58:41 AM »
I should note that while I personally don't use templates, my players probably would -- especially the DnD players who aren't as well versed in Rolemaster.

Ran into this exact topic at the weekend session a couple weeks ago.  I kept trying to explain that I had everything streamlined for character creation, but they were looking for templates to just jump in with a cookie cutter PC.

I keep the pre-made characters for the totally new to RM and when there really won't be any more beyond a few sessions.  This time around though, I wanted the PCs to be truly their own and I'm hoping this campaign will go for a few weekends.  I had three new players roll up level 1's, then gave them a quick mission, about an hour or so, then poof, level 2.  Then I gave them another quick one-off mission and poof, level three.  By Saturday morning, they were level 5 and ready to join in with the other two players from the previous sessions.
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Offline Dragonking11

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 06:27:20 AM »
If you are talking about templates as pregen characters then I think these are essential to encourage new players in.

That was exactly what I was refering to

I also think "pregen" characters would be quite useful to help new players. For RM, I would never use them either, but if I were to play in a new unfamiliar game system, I would very much like be given a well built first level character based on an archetype I like so that I can learn the game by playing.

Some game systems are quite complex for newcomers (RM is one of them) and I understand perfectly the reluctance that some people may have to even try those systems.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2017, 07:48:55 AM »
If you are talking about templates as pregen characters then I think these are essential to encourage new players in.

That was exactly what I was refering to

I also think "pregen" characters would be quite useful to help new players. For RM, I would never use them either, but if I were to play in a new unfamiliar game system, I would very much like be given a well built first level character based on an archetype I like so that I can learn the game by playing.

Some game systems are quite complex for newcomers (RM is one of them) and I understand perfectly the reluctance that some people may have to even try those systems.

Having pregens are also a useful GM resource especially if you have them at a variety of levels. You never know when you may need an instant NPC.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 10:36:26 AM »
Does anyone know if we are going to get an official character sheet? I know ERA will get one, but an Excel one might be good, so that we are all (literally) on the same page. I have created my own sheet and others have created theirs, but they can be quite different. If we all use the same official sheet, then we can have a robust database of pregens in the download section here.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 11:01:27 AM »
I do have an Excel sheet based on the current draft. I assume I'll be able to share it when everything is released. It's based on the sheet that was started by Matt and then updated by the community.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Are you or your players "min / maxers"
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2017, 01:57:41 PM »
I do have an Excel sheet based on the current draft. I assume I'll be able to share it when everything is released. It's based on the sheet that was started by Matt and then updated by the community.

Great, that would be awesome. If you are looking for other sheets, I know JessicaEwers has a character builder in excel format that she uses to make characters too.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle