Author Topic: Encouraging Contributors  (Read 17958 times)

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Offline jdale

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2013, 11:08:45 AM »
This is a small thing, but how about a forum "badge" for Guild Companion authors? Even better would be if it linked to a list of their contributions.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 11:11:31 AM »
You are on the right track....
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 11:52:50 AM »
...but for myself, I need the negative feedback more than I need the positive. And I can't help feeling that if your ego is too fragile to survive a negative response, whatever could you be thinking doing work that by its very nature cannot be considered "successful" without being judged by hundreds, thousands or even millions of random strangers?
You know, when the Channeling Companion came out I was actually somewhat disappointed that all the feedback was good (although the praise was more than welcome).  Interestingly when I asked for what people felt were 'cons' most of it was stuff we wanted to put in but couldn't due to space restraints or because the current ICE at that time wasn't interested in doing so (we actually had to fight to keep the Priest concept as more than a single Profession template).

If you want to improve upon your work getting feedback on what people didn't like is just as important about what they did like.  Just try to be polite about it!  ;)
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2013, 01:08:48 AM »
I remember when I got feedback on an assignment I did, for a University unit on the Vikings. The unit coordinator made positive remarks, then negative, then back to the positive remarks, and I found the whole an excellent example of the sort of feedback that you mean, Mr Magel. :)
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2013, 09:12:12 AM »
There's an important distinction in there I perhaps failed to make clear:

Quote
...but for myself, I need the negative feedback more than I need the positive.

To be sure, I appreciate the positive feedback more than the negative... but for purposes of making sure the next piece of work is an improvement over the present one, I need the negative feedback more than the positive.
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Offline Ironmaul

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2013, 07:05:03 PM »
There's an important distinction in there I perhaps failed to make clear:

Quote
...but for myself, I need the negative feedback more than I need the positive.

To be sure, I appreciate the positive feedback more than the negative... but for purposes of making sure the next piece of work is an improvement over the present one, I need the negative feedback more than the positive.
It's no different with my illustrations. I'm lucky though, as my wife is pretty harsh and brutal at times with her criticism which drives me to improve. It's always good to hear the positive but as long as they're not just saying it to be kind.
I can understand it would be a lot harder for an author to get feedback because of the time needed to invest just reading it. Why don't you guys form some kind of reading group to help each other out. You could even do this through Skype.
All that's needed is a sort of NDA that covers everyone that participates and your pretty much good to go. Anyway, that's just a suggestion.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2013, 08:59:25 PM »
It's no different with my illustrations.

I still say that pixie girl you did a couple of years back would look better in insect colors. Pastel shades for the body, full color for the wings. ;)

Just because I don't know anything about art doesn't stop me from being opinionated.  ;D
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Offline Ironmaul

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2013, 01:48:37 AM »
Hehe, that's right, you don't have to know about art to know if something is wrong.
You know it's funny you mentioning about that pixie girl I did, I've been thinking on doing another one.
I've always remembered your comments about it too, so I'll take that into consideration when it comes to her
colours and markings. And I'll do a better job at attaching the wings to the body...I know that was you and I think Marc that pointed it out.

Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2013, 07:45:49 PM »
There's an important distinction in there I perhaps failed to make clear:

Quote
...but for myself, I need the negative feedback more than I need the positive.

To be sure, I appreciate the positive feedback more than the negative... but for purposes of making sure the next piece of work is an improvement over the present one, I need the negative feedback more than the positive.

Personally, rather than calling it negative feedback, I'd say what you need is directed, constructive feedback. Negative feedback, to me is saying something like "this element doesn't work." Constructive negative feedback is then "this doesn't work because...." Directed constructive feedback is more "this works & that doesn't work, and you could make these better by...." You need to know, and we all need to know, what works, what doesn't, and how to improve, three elements rather than just the one, especially given the subjectivity of all three items.

How do you feel about what I have just written?
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2013, 09:36:39 PM »
I feel like I want the advice, but at the same time I won't find out how to be good in my own style unless and until I do what I think works and you and others like it, rather than doing what you think works. Training wheels help you learn to ride, but you're not actually riding the bike yourself until you take the training wheels off, if that makes sense. To me, the main advantage of "this doesn't work because...." is that it helps you to not repeat mistakes that were old and worn out when Chaucer was in diapers.

You can be told why things work the way they do, and that may be helpful, but nonetheless, you've just been told, that's not the same as having learned it. If you found it yourself, hopefully without having to get bitten by your own ignorance first... well now you know it, and you'll never forget it.
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2013, 09:51:16 PM »
I get what you're saying: you need that chance to work it out because that's the way you learn and retain the message. That's cool.

I'm sure we're also aware that not only are there many ways to learn, there are also many ways to convey what's needed to learn. So, I expect, what's best is if we writers were explicit about what we need at the time. How does this sound to you?

Which reminds me: what would you like feedback about, at the time of writing?
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 10:14:22 AM »
Which reminds me: what would you like feedback about, at the time of writing?

Thank you for that question. I won't claim I'm any closer to a real, simple answer than I was when you asked it, but it forced me to at least try to clarify my thinking on the subject.

"At the time of writing" or not doesn't make any difference to me. I mean yes, I'd rather have constructive criticism before publication than after, but what gives the critique value is still the same, before or after.

If I write something, or perform something, or draw something, it is a personal communication between me and the reader (audience, whatever). If a million people read it, it's still a personal and subjective communication, no two of them take away precisely the same thing for precisely the same reasons. It's easy enough for me to see what I was doing on my end of that communication, but I cannot ever have a sure way to see what came out the other end, because I can't see into people's heads. The critique of a reader, any reader, is of value in that it gives me a (foggy) look into the relationship between what I said and what they heard. The critique of someone whose experience and knowledge is such that they've faced the same problem before that I am facing now is, of course, of higher value. They can more clearly articulate what they're getting from the work, thus "clearing the fog" somewhat. Nonetheless, even if I'm being critiqued by Shakespeare's ghost, he's still only one reader, so what comes out of the other end of the communication stream is still going to be different for everyone else than it was for him.

So... for me the goal of a critique, whether I'm giving it or getting it, is what I (as audience) "heard" from the artist's work, what I suspect he was actually trying to "say," what made me think there was a difference between the two and how I would have "said it differently" had it been me (assuming I think I could have done better.) The more clearly I can articulate those things, the more value my critique has. Nonetheless, I also know that it's "just another one on the pile," and "the pile" is the size of the artist's entire audience.

I'm assuming that there is always a difference between what the audience experienced and the experience the artist was trying to convey, and that the more astute members of the audience will be able to spot it, even if they can't positively identify it. Some artists and some works are so perfect that the above doesn't apply, but most don't live long enough to be able to count on that degree of skill every time. I don't expect to, but that won't stop me from trying.
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2013, 12:34:33 PM »
Been quite on this up till now.  But I agree that TGC is a great way to get your name out there and try your hand (and get "constructive criticism" on that work). 

Having done some writing in the early years and in recent years having done some editing for TGC has been helpful for me.  With a couple of modules published electronically (first through TGC when Nicholas was running and now by GCP once he stepped down from TGC and took up the reigns at GCP/ICE) it was a very good experiences for me.  Especially with Nicholas being patient with me and pointing out a lot of issues, that I've since made an active effort to improve (although I still have a long ways to go).  As frankly my writing used to royally suck rotten eggs, now it just kind of sucks, but it has improved dramatically over the last decade or so. 

As stated by Nicholas, having small articles published in TGC is helpful when it comes to him evaluating proposals.  As had I not written those early articles, then my proposals for the small modules probably never would have seen the light of day, which means that my current larger project probably wouldn't have even been considered by him.

And while I've not made very much on the RPG writing I've done, it has been enjoyable and provides me with a sense of pride that others have used the ideas and concepts (as mentioned by others in this thread).  It has also helped me to improve my writing well enough that it has helped my "day job" (which a small part of that job is writing technical papers that are published internal to my employer and may be referenced by others for decades into the future) and has helped me to receive a promotion a couple of years ago and is helping to set me up for the next promotion level (which very few people in my job family with my employer ever get to).

But as can be seen here, one of my writing flaws (that still needs work) is that I tend to ramble on or over-explain things...

But in short (okay, not so short...), yes anything to help with our volume of submissions is a good thing, and as Thom pointed out, ICE and other gaming companies have tried in the past to publish professional RPG related magazines.  However they tend to struggle to break even, and with the system we have in place with The GuildCompanion.com, that isn't an issue.  We operate totally via volunteerism (authors, artists, editors, web-mastering, and web-hosting). 

Hopefully Peter and the rest of us will be able to continue to find the time to support this great hobby and the fans will continue to contribute articles that help to support our readers.
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2013, 02:50:09 AM »
Thank you, Wolfhound! You make many valid points, ones which I also hold, and you rambled less than you feared you did. I'd love to ask you, given your experience both as a writer for and staff member of the Guild Companion, how would you encourage both beginning authors and more experienced authors to both submit and keep submitting?

And I hope you don't mind if I throw another question into the mix: one way of stating the 80:20 rule is that 80% of the product (ie. Guild Companion articles) will be written by 20% of the authors. How would you encourage writers who would be in that 80% to become part of the 20%?
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2013, 12:03:12 PM »
Not sure on the first question, as for the 2-3 months after Nicholas stepped down and until Peter had the time to dedicate to it, I was acting as the General Editor (glad Peter was willing, as I think he does a better job than I did in that role) and would frequently include mention that we are always looking for submissions, but over that time we didn't get very many.  But that is something that I think even Nicholas was struggling with for the last year or so that he was the General Editor, was the decreasing rate of submissions. 

About the only thing I can say in regards the second question is that we very rarely turn anything away, so if you have an idea or some info that you think others might be interested in, please submit it.  Sometimes things need to go through multiple rounds of editing to make them useable, but we are nearly always willing to work with such authors to get their submissions to a publishable point.  And as others have pointed out, it is a great way to improve the quality of your writing.  All it takes is to take some time to write your ideas up, and at the minimum people will come to recognize you as a contributor to the hobby we all enjoy and at the most you could end up being able to get more involved in producing commercial works that do have the potential to pay (at least a small amount, although as others have stated, don't plan on getting rich from it). 

Unfortunately, all of the discussion so far (I think anyways) has been from people who have been active writers, at least at the GuildCompanion.com level or in some cases even at the ICE commercial level.  Hopefully some potentially new people will see this thread and consider submitting articles.  We do still have a fair number of readers, so it is a good way to get your ideas out there. 
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2013, 01:14:39 PM »
But as can be seen here, one of my writing flaws (that still needs work) is that I tend to ramble on or over-explain things...

You're a writer, that's all that you need to say to explain that. :)
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Offline VladD

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2013, 04:02:11 PM »
I think the GCM can benefit from a comment section below the article and maybe a +1/ like button. If people can give feedback right away, I think it might be forthcoming.
With my armor article I went to the forums and specifically asked people to take a look and give comments. That got me some reasonable feedback; all of it valid and useful.

Also a search function; where you type in something like "potion", or "armor" and all the potion articles come rolling out; would be useful.

I like the idea of a place where all the free articles on a game system are collected. Makes for additional value on the systems of the company. As a Dutchie I love my free stuff and it is a kind of trade...

Also I think that publishing something in GCM can brand the idea as yours. Might be pretty important when you want to get in to a copyrighted branch of work. Ideas are worth money and people can now use your idea but can't claim it as their own.

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2013, 06:12:25 PM »
G'day, Vlad!

One of the problems of a comment section directly attached to the magazine &/or articles, is that it needs to be moderated so that spam &/or trolling doesn't creep in. A +1/like button doesn't allow the "negative" feedback needed (see above). We need to know what can be done better, not just if a reader likes the article.

There are options: 1) a link to a feedback form set up so bots can't spam; 2) an address or addresses for sending feedback (perhaps linked to a correspondence column in the magazine.

There is a search function; I use it frequently enough. It is, from memory, linked in the links of the left-hand column.
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Offline Old Man

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2013, 07:51:11 PM »
This is a small thing, but how about a forum "badge" for Guild Companion authors? Even better would be if it linked to a list of their contributions.


Is there a forum badge for authors in general (past, present or future)?
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Encouraging Contributors
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2013, 08:32:08 PM »
Authors? Not really... anyone who authored, edited, illustrated, did layout or even playtested for ICE is welcome to state that in their sig - however, in the next couple of weeks (assuming we are able to finalize everything) we will be announcing the new OIC and all the benefits involved and that will include greater use of the awards....
If you haven't noticed yet, check out the profile for VladD (and others) where they are now showing a Rolemaster 30th Anniversary Contest award banner.  Much more to come...
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