Author Topic: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )  (Read 6134 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2016, 10:23:09 AM »
[...]
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
  • Magic points used up or remaining magic points needed for healing the party or similar support functions - stay in second line and use your higher dexterity over your low strength. Bow or crossbow seems like a natural choice.
  • Unwittingly caught in melee: Run!
In 30+ years my experience has been that when the spell caster draws a weapon it is normally to parry with waiting for help to arrive. It sounds like your game is somewhat different.

My games tend to be more like yours Peter: casters usually try to have a weapon like a staff for when they get caught in melee and need something to parry with. With the new RMU rules for power points, I imagine casters will almost always have some spells they can use at a distance; where they lack is in melee, which is why I find they need a melee weapon. Running out of power points is of course a much greater concern in RM2 though. How does RMC do it? How many power points is a first level character likely to have?

 
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Pazuzu

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 94
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2016, 10:23:28 AM »
My favorite is the War Mattock. If the crit doesn't put a foe down, the hits will. Especially if the wielder is frenzied or is using a X2 concussion enchantment or ability.

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2016, 11:03:05 AM »
[...]
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
  • Magic points used up or remaining magic points needed for healing the party or similar support functions - stay in second line and use your higher dexterity over your low strength. Bow or crossbow seems like a natural choice.
  • Unwittingly caught in melee: Run!
In 30+ years my experience has been that when the spell caster draws a weapon it is normally to parry with waiting for help to arrive. It sounds like your game is somewhat different.

My games tend to be more like yours Peter: casters usually try to have a weapon like a staff for when they get caught in melee and need something to parry with. With the new RMU rules for power points, I imagine casters will almost always have some spells they can use at a distance; where they lack is in melee, which is why I find they need a melee weapon. Running out of power points is of course a much greater concern in RM2 though. How does RMC do it? How many power points is a first level character likely to have?

RMC is the same as RM2 in this instance. I have a first level Lay Healer and he has the a total of 5. I rolled a straight 100 PR which gave me 3. A background option gave me an additional +1 PP per level and the GM is using an optional rule that gives me an additional 1 per level. I think that is a lot of power points under the RM2/RMC rules. The GM is using RMC with many of the RM2 companions so our party is a Celtic Mage complete with kilt sporan and claymor, a rather upperclass bard using a broadsword, a noble warrior also using sword and board and me an impoverished lay healer using a spear. Right now there is not a ranged weapon in the party and we are all 1st level so I doubt we have a single ranged spell either.

My combat tactic is to fight from the second rank, I have a decent adrenal move strength and speed skills so I have the choice of +10OB and x2 damage or two attacks. My total skill in those is +46 so nearly 50/50 as to whether I will get it or not. My natural OB is +18, making me less than dangerous. I suspect that cowering with a hand up and shouting "Don't hurt me I'm a healer!" may be my best tactic in combat.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2016, 12:32:41 PM »
Definitely stick with the spear then!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Warl

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 902
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2016, 04:56:43 PM »
Quote
Peter R Said: "In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying."

What is it that you and our players find dissatisfying about Bows? I know I have very few players use them, but I tend to use them a lot against the players effectively. Especially to slow them down and delay them from engaging the enemy.
D Puncture crit 100
Strike through foes brain makes liffe Difficult for foe!

http://www.dragonlords.tolmanbros.com/forum/

http://www.dinnertablecreations.tolmanbros.com/

Offline arakish

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,579
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • A joy of mine
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2016, 06:41:15 PM »
Quote
Peter R Said: "In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying."

What is it that you and our players find dissatisfying about Bows? I know I have very few players use them, but I tend to use them a lot against the players effectively. Especially to slow them down and delay them from engaging the enemy.

When I play a Ranger, Rogue, or other like profession, I tend to use bows as their primary weapon backed up with a sword.  Also, my fighters tend to learn bows as a 2ndary weapon.  Bows also come in handy when hunting, thus my arms based character almost always have a bow or crossbow.

rmfr
"Beware those who would deny you access to information, for they already dream themselves your master."
— RMF Runyan in Sci-Fi RPG session (GM); quoted from the PC game SMAC.

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2016, 02:19:36 AM »
Quote
Peter R Said: "In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying."

What is it that you and our players find dissatisfying about Bows? I know I have very few players use them, but I tend to use them a lot against the players effectively. Especially to slow them down and delay them from engaging the enemy.

The problem with bows are the puncture criticals. When you get up towards the better D & E criticals where a slash or krush do major damage the punctures much less lenient. In other criticals where the wound may be fatal with the puncture the foe only appears stunned (and may die in several rounds but the players do not know that) with a slash the fow may have lost an arm and be spouting blood.

Here is a roll of 91-95 E Slash.
Sever foe's spine. +20 hits. Foe collapses in a second, and is paralyzed from the neck down permanently.
Here is a roll of 91-95 E Puncture.
Sever artery in foe's arm. Foe is stunned for 12 rnds and then dies.

Obviously I have chosen an extreme example but the puncture criticals are less evocative and you could say that the death result is actually worse than paralysis especially if the victim is a spell caster who could in theory still cast spells even when paralysed but all the archer sees is the arrow hit the target in the arm, there is a lot of blood and the impact has left him rather dazed. The archer doesn't know it is fatal or even how long they are stunned for. Very few fights are going to last 12 rnds so unless this person makes his escape someone else is going to engage him and kill him again.

That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2016, 06:21:23 AM »
[...]
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.

But in the case of a spellcaster whose magic points are low, puncture criticals are a lot better than doing either nothing or standing in the first line with a melee weapon.

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2016, 06:47:16 AM »
[...]
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.

But in the case of a spellcaster whose magic points are low, puncture criticals are a lot better than doing either nothing or standing in the first line with a melee weapon.
Maybe, maybe not. It just never happens in our games. If they are trying to fire every round then the minuses mean they need an open ended to hit anything, even if they didn't before. If they take the time to reload then they spend half their time inactive. With a weapon you can use every round you can at least parry, if someone else stuns the person attacking you then you have a chance.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with bows or spell casters using bows. I am just saying that in my game and in those I play bows are generally felt to be dissapointing.

We finished a high level campaign not too long ago. We started with pregen characters and the ranger had long bow as his primary weapon. I was using two weapon combo and addrenal move speed and thrown shortswords. The ranger had a massive range compared to a short sword but as he was the only bow user in the party the plan was always to get up close before starting the attack. Therefore the range was never particularly useful. Once they were in range I had kill rate 4 times that of the ranger and I often killed his bleeding targets. That even took into account the time required to recover my weapons. Our fighter was using a pair of laen broadswords, the mage was keen on death clouds, I gave covering fire and the ranger just sort of took 'ineffectual' pot shots. I ended up about 5 levels higher than the ranger because his kill rate was so poor. That was not entirely down to the bow, I did a lot of stalking and ambush so got lots of individual kills and despite being a thief I had learned 5 spell lists by the end of the game and was the primary healer in the group with a combination of spells, items and decent herb lore. The point of the story is that, that high level game reinforced the idea that bows were just not a good weapon.

If they work for you then great, that was just our experience.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 09:09:46 AM »

In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying.

I can see your point, and it's probably more evident with the crossbows given the amount of time to reload.  A lot of my players use bows as "one and done" then switch to melee, but they always get some ranks in a ranged weapon.  (Except for Duelist class from RM2.  I believe they shun ranged weapons as 'dishonorable combat.')  Unless the players have good cover and the enemy has a good distance to cover, then maybe they'll get 2-3 shots before switching, but it doesn't prevent me from investing in ranged as a 2nd or 3rd weapon slot.  (I don't make many spell casters  :)  )  I still love the Heavy CB and almost always take it.  If I'm playing a PC with a bit less "militaristic" bent and more of a "nature/free spirit" archetype, I'll take Composite bow.  I love the bonuses on the Comp Bow.

When I've made a spell caster, I've chosen staff or club as a weapon rationalizing that I can beat someone with my magic staff or my magic wand once I've run out of PP.

As a segue, I make sure all of my PC's have developed at least Rank 2 in Martial Arts or Wrestling.  If my magic wand can't be used to beat someone, then at least I can throw a punch or throw my opponent.  LOL  There's something to be said for being scrappy and wiry.  A decent strike/sweep/throw could cause that oh-so-desperately-needed stun crit on my opponent so I can run away.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2016, 10:07:04 AM »
My players have found bows to be useful, but I agree that their criticals lack a little compared to Crush and Slash, at least in this respect: puncture crits tend to do more bleeding, but combats are over before that bleeding usually can make any difference. A bleed of 1 or even 2 hits per round is meaningless 98% of the time, but an extra 5 hits might make a difference.

As far as melee vs. ranged goes, melee has been more useful to my casters because they already tend to have things they can do at range. I recently made a Mentalist that used spells at a distance and a Glaive up close to finish foes off. It was pretty fun to play.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Warl

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 902
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2016, 10:16:33 AM »
Firstly, This reasoning seams contradictory to your statements about Favorite weapons, as you list the spear amoung your favorite weapon choices, Which uses Puncture criticals as well.

Secondly, Now there is something missing from the Rolemaster Rules for Puncturing weapons, especially for Arrows and Bolts, and that is the fact that they "embed" themselves into the target, when they hit, and need to be removed. Midevil removal methods were rather brutal, especially if the Arrow or bolt had a 'Head' on it rather than just a Sharpened point.
Now I realize this isn't rules as Written, but I use house rules for Embedded Arrows and Bolts and difficulties for removing them and causing more damage. RM needs rules like this. For Melee Puncture weapons, I assume the removal is part of the damage inflicted.

Thirdly, if your ignoring Bows and Crossbows solely on the basis of what are apparently lesser criticals? You are losing several major advantage to all fights in history. Ones that are the reason they were used.
#1 you can hit your target from range with less risk to yourself.
#2 you can do it from Cover and concealment both for additional safety and to ambush your foe.
#3 you can, in most situations, get off several shots before the melee enemy reaches you.
#4 You can keep wary foes pinned down in cover preventing or slowing them down from reaching you.
And from a Game rules point of view:
#5 Unless the Enemy has a shield, it is much harder to defend against an arrow/Missile.

Ignoring such things surely does make bows appear less. But when considered, bows can rule an encounter as easily as a Mage with spells.
D Puncture crit 100
Strike through foes brain makes liffe Difficult for foe!

http://www.dragonlords.tolmanbros.com/forum/

http://www.dinnertablecreations.tolmanbros.com/

Offline Warl

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 902
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2016, 10:47:03 AM »
Quote
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.

An enemy that is stunned for 12 rounds does not need to be "FInished off". He is Effectively out of Combat and will die at the end of those 12 rounds. Unless he has some Serious Stunned Maneuvering bonuses.
12 rounds of stun is effectively an absurd maneuver on the Basic table, worse if you use the expanded Maneuver tables, to try to over come. Plus you have the -10 per round of accumulated stun added to the difficulty of that roll.
Even at 5 rounds of stun, you have to roll on the extremely Hard table with an additional -50 for rounds of stun accrued.

and one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, You use the bow until the Enemy gets close, then you switch to a melee weapon. Ignoring a missile option basically looses you a bunch of actions until melee is engaged.
D Puncture crit 100
Strike through foes brain makes liffe Difficult for foe!

http://www.dragonlords.tolmanbros.com/forum/

http://www.dinnertablecreations.tolmanbros.com/

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2016, 11:52:12 AM »
Firstly, This reasoning seams contradictory to your statements about Favorite weapons, as you list the spear amoung your favorite weapon choices, Which uses Puncture criticals as well.

Secondly, Now there is something missing from the Rolemaster Rules for Puncturing weapons, especially for Arrows and Bolts, and that is the fact that they "embed" themselves into the target, when they hit, and need to be removed. Midevil removal methods were rather brutal, especially if the Arrow or bolt had a 'Head' on it rather than just a Sharpened point.
Now I realize this isn't rules as Written, but I use house rules for Embedded Arrows and Bolts and difficulties for removing them and causing more damage. RM needs rules like this. For Melee Puncture weapons, I assume the removal is part of the damage inflicted.

Thirdly, if your ignoring Bows and Crossbows solely on the basis of what are apparently lesser criticals? You are losing several major advantage to all fights in history. Ones that are the reason they were used.
#1 you can hit your target from range with less risk to yourself.
#2 you can do it from Cover and concealment both for additional safety and to ambush your foe.
#3 you can, in most situations, get off several shots before the melee enemy reaches you.
#4 You can keep wary foes pinned down in cover preventing or slowing them down from reaching you.
And from a Game rules point of view:
#5 Unless the Enemy has a shield, it is much harder to defend against an arrow/Missile.

Ignoring such things surely does make bows appear less. But when considered, bows can rule an encounter as easily as a Mage with spells.
First: There is no contradiction, the topic said favourite not the best and I like spears. I rarely play out and out fighters so where the percieved problem with puncture criticals is most pronounced in teh higher numbers in the D&E criticals I am mostly hitting in the lower reaches of the table where spears do a mix of slashes and punctures and even the odd krush critical.

Second: you are probably right about getting the arrow or bolt out.

Third:In mass battles I am sure bows are fine, against foes with low morale again they are fine, any wound is probably enough to get them to leave the battle field. When you are in closer quarters such as a prison break, storming a watch tower, searching the underdark and the like the short lines of site negate some or all of the advantages of the bow. It is a situation by situation decision.

I like the spear, if I am fighting skeletons I can use it as a quarterstaff and break bones, arrows or indeed spears in that situation are less useful. I can use it in a cavalry charge even if I am more of a percieved threat than a real one. With my spear I feel I can be an active member of any and every combat. If the worst came to the worst I could even throw the thing!
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2016, 11:56:18 AM »
Quote
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.

An enemy that is stunned for 12 rounds does not need to be "FInished off". He is Effectively out of Combat and will die at the end of those 12 rounds. Unless he has some Serious Stunned Maneuvering bonuses.
12 rounds of stun is effectively an absurd maneuver on the Basic table, worse if you use the expanded Maneuver tables, to try to over come. Plus you have the -10 per round of accumulated stun added to the difficulty of that roll.
Even at 5 rounds of stun, you have to roll on the extremely Hard table with an additional -50 for rounds of stun accrued.

and one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, You use the bow until the Enemy gets close, then you switch to a melee weapon. Ignoring a missile option basically looses you a bunch of actions until melee is engaged.

OK, only the GM knows he is stunned for 12 rounds. It could be one round it could be more. A stunned opponent can still shout for help, stagger to a gong and hit it or make an open ended stunned maneuver roll and beat me senseless.

Your last point is dependent on the enemy not being spotted until close up.

At no point have I said bows are bad. I only said that in our games bows were percieved as being disappointing.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2016, 03:32:25 PM »

Secondly, Now there is something missing from the Rolemaster Rules for Puncturing weapons, especially for Arrows and Bolts, and that is the fact that they "embed" themselves into the target, when they hit, and need to be removed. Midevil removal methods were rather brutal, especially if the Arrow or bolt had a 'Head' on it rather than just a Sharpened point.

Now I realize this isn't rules as Written, but I use house rules for Embedded Arrows and Bolts and difficulties for removing them and causing more damage. RM needs rules like this. For Melee Puncture weapons, I assume the removal is part of the damage inflicted.


OMG!  That's something that I've never even considered.  In all the years of gaming, the hours upon hours of playing RM and all other game systems; the arrows can be imbedded in the target!

I'm sure most of you are saying "Duh, no crap."  I don't know why I've never thought of this.  Maybe in my mind's eye, the arrows hit and fell out.  Or maybe passed through.  Or maybe broke off.  Or the target just removed them as a matter of course before the next round.  Whatever the case, I just never (and none of the GM's I can recall) accounted for "remove the arrow in battle."  I know at the end of combat, we've cleaned up, plucked arrows, tended to wounds, but what is the reality to fighting with the arrow in the body?  More damage certainly, aggravating the bleeding possibly.  It could act as a plug of sorts.  When we are on a rescue scene, we never remove the imbedded object.  That's the job of the ER doctors to do in the hospital not the first responders on scene.  That object could be keeping an artery sealed off and removing it could cause the patient to bleed out.

What are the house rules you use for imbedded arrows/quarrels?  I think we always just assumed that removing the arrow was part of the total damage received and part of the crit damage.  Even if the target doesn't receive a crit, it could be stuck in the body, you know.... just a flesh wound.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Mordrig

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2017, 01:20:20 PM »
What is wrong with the Long Kynac?  a Preferred weapon for my Nightblade.

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2017, 03:13:16 PM »
What is wrong with the Long Kynac?  a Preferred weapon for my Nightblade.

Isn't "long kynac" a specifically named item from C&T 1 or RMC1?  I saw that as a treasure to be earned, not something a player could start the game with.  There are plenty of weapons in C&T I would love to have, one of them acts like a light saber when activated  8)

In that case, my favorite weapon is Shield Slayer (Battle Axe).  Level 50 Destroy shield/armour on hit.  My Cavalier found it in a long, long campaign that lasted 2 semesters when I was in college.  What a blast that is to play with!
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Mordrig

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2017, 05:23:19 PM »
The long kynac is a weapon in arms law.  That and the kynac, both use the rapier table.

Online jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,102
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: What is your favorite weapon (Even the spell casters have one :-) )
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2017, 07:37:13 PM »
The long kynac is treated as a +15 rapier, and throwable to boot if I remember correctly. It doesn't make sense to let a player start with one unless you would also let them start with a +15 rapier.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster