Author Topic: How powerful are you're pc's?  (Read 6595 times)

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Offline Lorgalis

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How powerful are you're pc's?
« on: November 21, 2017, 05:27:31 AM »
I sometimes wonder if I, as a GM, let the players find too powerful magic items etc. Probably the opposite. I've been a Rolemaster GM since 1989, with the same group of players, and the current party is the highest level ever for us.
10 lvl Rogue
10 lvl Magician
10 lvl Champion
9 lvl Ranger
9 lvl Venturer

How much OB and DB would your players have in 10th lvl? How powerful multipliers and spell adders would they have? How big are the bonuses on magic weapons? etc
 

Offline Malim

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 06:48:35 AM »
We play a ongoing scenario, that started in early 90`s.
Out highest lvl is my bashkar lvl 24, so our player lvl is high, but our item power lvl is pretty low. our most powerfull items are modest if i compare to the treasure books.
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline Spectre771

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 07:14:37 AM »
The power level is all relative though.   In our group, your players may be over powered, conversely our players added to your group may be too underpowered.  It all depends on what you throw against them.

The questions is what type, level, numbers, skilled baddies do you send your group against?  Do they NEED those extra powered items to survive?  For each session I host, I look at the OB/DB of the players, what skills they're really good at and which ones are weaker. I try to find something that will be a challenge for what they have and maybe a few things that will take advantage of their weaknesses to encourage them to invest at the next level.

You can easily balance out the items they currently have by creating situations where the spell casters have to use up more PP.  You can offset the tanks by giving them multiple attackers to deal with, thereby "hopefully) making them spend OB into parrying.  Something I've done in the past is to take a copy of one of the players, turn it into an NPC and see how well they do fighting a "clone" of themselves.

The highest level PC we have now is level 8 Cavalier, with 15 ranks in primary weapon, 10 ranks in secondary and tertiary weapons.  Lots of Stunned Maneuver and HP and a really nasty Battle Axe.  I send lots of ranged NPCs and multiples to keep him on his toes and to keep him off balance.  He still comes out on top, but I don't make it easy.

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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 07:23:15 AM »
Well, I don't know about your PCs, but here are two NPC examples of mine (of similar levels):

1) Semi-spellcaster, 11th: +210 OB, +100 BD (no shield), +192 DS, x2 PP multiplier, +3 spell adder. Some item examples:
   * main weapon: +30 OB. Any spell from Warrior’s Way" cast on it gets cast one round faster and is improved by one degree. It also increases its owner's intuition, allowing her to better thwart bluffing defenses such as the use of the feinting skill, the tumbling attack skill, a Displacement spell, etc.; her opponent's chances of success are lowered by 15%. In addition, if its owner injures any creature with it, she then may thrown it at aforementioned creature at a range expressed in kilometres rather than metres, with an additional bonus of +33 and range penalties expressed the same way in kilimetres,
   * add +20 OB, Haste 13 rounds a day, +3 to CCs 8 fights a day,
   * may cast spells from "Concussion's Ways" (level 11-20) as if her own.

2) Warrior class, 11th: +189 OB, +90 DB (+50 DB shield). Some item examples:
   * main weapon: +25 OB. It cancels 25% of DB invested to parry it and adds a vibration critical of the same level to all criticals inflicted. In addition, it adds two rounds of stun any time it hits and inflicts a critical, even if it results in no round of stun, and even against creatures normally immune to stun,
   * protects a AT12, encumbers as AT5, +20 DB. Inflicts a A electricity critical to any creature who injures its wearer (with or without a critical),
   * can catch all projectiles fired or weapons thrown at its owner, regardless of the number, speed, size, type, direction from which they were fired/thrown, as long as her owner is aware of possible attacks and has both hands free.

   Let's say the PCs are well-equiped enough to deal with the NPCs...
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Online B Hanson

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 10:09:27 AM »
Olf:

Can you break down the OB for your 11th lvl warrior? I'm doing a lot of work on skill bonuses for high level NPCs and wondering how you got to 189.

22 ranks in weapon is 75 or so, +20 in stats, +33 in professional bonus and +25 in weapon bonus..what am I missing?
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 10:16:39 AM »
I have the same question as Brian. Those numbers seem very high compared to our group: both the stat bonuses and the item bonuses.

By level 10 i would say characters would have as some of their best items some +15 or maybe a +20 item. Definitely not any higher than that.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Online B Hanson

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 10:42:46 AM »
I'm going to be blogging about skill bonus and action ranges in the near future, so this is an interesting discussion. Once you get to 150 OB you only have to roll over the defenders DB to get max damage. Of course there are other situational penalties that will affect that, but should the 150 be occurring by 10th lvl in general?

I'm thinking the +3 level bonus is a bit much.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 11:03:41 AM »
I'm going to be blogging about skill bonus and action ranges in the near future, so this is an interesting discussion. Once you get to 150 OB you only have to roll over the defenders DB to get max damage. Of course there are other situational penalties that will affect that, but should the 150 be occurring by 10th lvl in general?

I'm thinking the +3 level bonus is a bit much.

I've hit the 150 OB prior to level 10 plenty of times.  Item bonus, stat bonus, level bonus.  At level 4, a "tank" PC should have the primary weapon skills maxed out at 10 ranks.  (4 levels plus Adolescent level 0)

Skill ranks: 50
Stat:  25
Level Bonus : 12
Item Bonus: 25

Total at level 4: 112

Being lucky enough to find a +25 weapon may be a stretch for a level 4 PC, but even dropping to +15 weapon, you're still over 100 OB at level 4.

Even if the PC hits an OB of 150+, the NPC he's facing should be parrying to offset that huge OB.  I tell my players all the time to parry, parry, parry.  They learn.... eventually.  Having that high OB allows the player to parry and to still have a decent attack.  I wouldn't say 150+ at level 10 is a stretch or even a bad thing.  At level 10 and facing level 10+ NPCs, you'll need to parry, even at half parry, 75 OB 75 DB is decent.

If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 11:10:08 AM »
Getting to 100 around level 4 is not a problem to me, but then diminishing returns kick in, so 189 by level 11 still seems a little high. If I had a Fighter at level 11, I would probably have about an OB approaching 150 (but not near 190):

24 skill ranks = 74
Stat say about = 25
Level bonus = 33

So we're looking at about 132 before item bonus. Even giving him a +20 item gets him just over 150.

I agree that the +3/level bonus is a bit too high. What it did was limit the number of classes my players played. Anyone who wanted to be a front-line combatant played a class with a +3 or at very least +2/level bonus in weapon skills. By the time you are approaching level 10, those bonuses really start to make a difference, and no one wants to feel gimped.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 11:37:52 AM »
I agree that the +3/level bonus is a bit too high. What it did was limit the number of classes my players played. Anyone who wanted to be a front-line combatant played a class with a +3 or at very least +2/level bonus in weapon skills. By the time you are approaching level 10, those bonuses really start to make a difference, and no one wants to feel gimped.

One could argue the other direction too.  A level 10 PC hits level 11 and only gets +3 to an attack.  If you're facing a level 11 creature, is the OB going from 150 to 153 really going to shift the balance of power?  As you said, diminishing returns on skill rank purchases, so this level bonus could very well be the only OB increase for the PC.  I very rarely buy into the 2% skill ranks.  I'm probably not going to buy the two skill ranks to give me +4 OB at level up because of the decrease in value.   I'll spend those "newly freed up DP" to better round out my PC or to spend in my secondary weapon category, but by virtue of being the fighter class, I at least get +3 to OB.

Another seemingly built in balance to the character class, is those with +3 in Combat skills, tend to have a +1 to +3 in Body Development.  Something that I always grin and bear when I make a fighter-type.  After I've hit my max HP, that +3 in Body Dev is useless.  Where other classes benefit from 10 points worth of Level bonuses, the fighter-type gets 7 once max hits is reached.

+3 Combat
+3 Body Dev
+2 Outdoors
+1 Animal
+1 Subterfuge

Or some similar spread.  The total is 10 and each +# applies to a full CATEGORY of skills, whereas +3 Body Dev applies only to a SINGLE skill and once Max HP is reached, the fighter type loses out level bonuses for an entire category.
If discretion is the better valor and
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 12:17:19 PM »
Don't forget, too, if you're using RM2 with some of those background abilities it's quite possible to get a stat bonus above +20 or +25. Factor in race and some other things and those numbers don't seem too far-fetched to me. And Spectre makes a point worth repeating: much depends on the opposition the players are facing.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 12:21:26 PM »
Don't forget, too, if you're using RM2 with some of those background abilities it's quite possible to get a stat bonus above +20 or +25.

RMC-I
Skill at Arms
Skill at Magic!!!!

Yes and yes!  It's always worth rolling on those tables.  A +25 to a stat bonus is awesome.
If discretion is the better valor and
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 12:22:29 PM »
I think you have a fair argument for Body Dev.

But I think the argument for OB is harder to make. At level 11, the difference between a class with a +1/level in OB and a class with a +3/level is going to be 22. That is IMHO a lot. It can often be the difference between hitting and missing. An extreme example: Using a Flail against AT 1, it can be the difference between missing entirely or doing 20DK. That is of course an extreme example, but it routinely will change a 9BK to a 17CK, or a 10 (no crit) to a 15BK. That is just too much of an advantage to give up if you want to be a front line fighter.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 12:26:23 PM »
Once I went over to letting players assign their level bonuses the increase is easier to accept and understand (at least in my view). To get the +3 every level, a player has to allocate 3 points to a skill they actually developed that level. So a fighter who improves Flail every level will have a +30 by level 10, but less if she skips it or reduces the amount one level. And someone picking up a new weapon skill at level 10 doesn't automatically get a +30.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 12:37:16 PM »

But I think the argument for OB is harder to make. At level 11, the difference between a class with a +1/level in OB and a class with a +3/level is going to be 22. That is IMHO a lot. It can often be the difference between hitting and missing.

The +22 differential is decent and absolutely means the difference between hit/miss, crit/no crit. There's definitely no denying.

But add to that mix... the PC with +3 is the "pure fighter" and the PC with the +1 is "good at fighting, but is no Bashkar."  Thief vs. Bashkar?  Rogue vs. Cavalier?  The player "good" at fighting isn't as good as the pure fighter and would probably miss where the "pure fighter" would hit, a la the difference that +22 makes.  It's like comparing an Orange and a Tangerine.  Very similar, but one is bigger, better, heartier than the other.  Both will give you a good blast of vitamin C to help you fight your cold, but one is clearly the better fighter. 


...... I'd rather have someone throw a tangerine at me as opposed to a naval orange.  :laugh1:



If discretion is the better valor and
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let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Lorgalis

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 01:45:37 PM »
10 lvl magician:
OB 115 lightning bolt, 120 fire bolt.
X3 PP


10 lvl Champion:
OB 165 Two handed sword
DB 45 (no shield)
X3 PP
+2 spell adder
Robe that protects as AT 15

We abuse the option we call "hobby": 4 extra ranks in a skill and 2 in another. Usually primary weapon and body dev.

And we abuse "skill at arms" and "skill at magic". Most of my players use at least 4 background options on those lists. And one of my players rolled both +15 and +20 In strength and constitution. So he's got a +56 strength bonus. Ridiculous.

The reasons why this party is the first to reach 10 lvl in almost 30 years: 1. Almost no significant friction among the PC's. 2. We're getting old and soft. 3. I gave them a fate point each. They all spent it before they reached third level. 

We started this campaign in 2013.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 01:47:25 PM »
Once I went over to letting players assign their level bonuses the increase is easier to accept and understand (at least in my view). To get the +3 every level, a player has to allocate 3 points to a skill they actually developed that level. So a fighter who improves Flail every level will have a +30 by level 10, but less if she skips it or reduces the amount one level. And someone picking up a new weapon skill at level 10 doesn't automatically get a +30.

Sounds like RMU  :)
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Hurin

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 01:49:24 PM »

...... I'd rather have someone throw a tangerine at me as opposed to a naval orange.  :laugh1:


Yes, I take your point-- I think that the classes that don't have a +3 for weapon skills do get compensated with other skills. We just play a combat-heavy game so every + and - that can affect combat is carefully weighed amongst my players.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Spectre771

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 01:56:07 PM »

And we abuse "skill at arms" and "skill at magic". Most of my players use at least 4 background options on those lists. And one of my players rolled both +15 and +20 In strength and constitution. So he's got a +56 strength bonus. Ridiculous.



We ruled that only the first bonus applies.  If the same stat gets modified, the player gets a re-roll, but the first bonus to ST stays.
If discretion is the better valor and
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How powerful are you're pc's?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 08:50:56 PM »
Once I went over to letting players assign their level bonuses the increase is easier to accept and understand (at least in my view). To get the +3 every level, a player has to allocate 3 points to a skill they actually developed that level. So a fighter who improves Flail every level will have a +30 by level 10, but less if she skips it or reduces the amount one level. And someone picking up a new weapon skill at level 10 doesn't automatically get a +30.

Sounds like RMU  :)

Not really, because the bonuses were assigned by the players, not some random profession determined perk or what have you. I also didn't allow bonuses to go into skills that were not developed that level.
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