Author Topic: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?  (Read 3056 times)

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Offline Spectre771

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Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« on: February 15, 2018, 11:45:24 AM »
For decades, we've always started our players at Level 5.  This allowed the spell casters to develop fairly well and allowed enough DP to allow players to round out their PCs.  We also did it to allow the GMs to draw from a broader range of baddies and to make the game more interesting.

Over the summer, I had a group of players blast through levels 1-4 to get to level 5 in one night to start out the main campaign at level 5.  The main campaign commenced the following morning with all players at 5th level.  The players really enjoyed that extremely simplified, extremely fast level-up to prepare for the campaign.  They discovered weaknesses and found skills they wanted to utilize more.  In the instant PC creation at level 5, there is no time for discovery and tweaking, you sort of have an archetype in mind and buy all of the skills and hope for the best, then wait for 20K xp to make any tweaks.

These past few months, I've been running a new group of players through a campaign and I decided to start them at Level 1 and to just have them go through the growing pains and to let them discover the full PC experience and I have to admit, I'm having a blast GM-ing for this group of level 1 PCs.  Most are on their 4th session and are pretty close to hitting level 2 now and they are excited and have something to look forward to at 10K xp vs. waiting for 20K xp to make some PC improvements.

My questions to the players and the GMs is this: 
What PC level do you enjoy GM-ing/playing?
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 11:49:00 AM »
I love the lower levels, and think they are vital for teaching players the basics of the game. With fewer skills available, there is more time to focus on how each works.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 12:07:36 PM »
I also like lower levels. My current game I started at level 2 and had the players advance fairly quickly to 5 (every other session). Our RMSS-now-RMU game started at level 1 and the highest level characters are 8th which feels mighty. It might not seem so impressive if we had started at 5th. :)

For people new to the system, I think leveling from the low levels is really useful in helping them develop their characters. It also reduces the amount of work to create a character. If you prefer to play at a higher level, you can advance them as quickly as you want. Although if you are planning to change your XP/leveling partway through the campaign, I would advise letting the players know that in advance.
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Offline Fingolfin80

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 02:17:11 PM »
I always make my players start at level one, except for one shots. I tend to be more generous with XP at lower levels, so they can level faster, but I prefer not to make higher level pc mainly because I don't want to make the pc creation too tedious.

Offline Voriig Kye

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 05:52:19 PM »
We normally start at level 2 or 3, whatever the players think they need to get the minimum ranks so that their characters "feel right".
We occasionally start higher (level 5-7) when the campaign story requires "experienced" adventurers.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 06:19:13 AM »
@Fingolfin
@Voriig Kye

Thank you for your reply, but what levels do you enjoy GMing or playing?  What gives you folks the most fun?  Do you like the "learning" stages and growing pains and seeing how the players adapt and overcome the challenges, or do you enjoy the more experienced campaigns and settings with more spells, more OB, more baddies to battle?

I'm interested in what gives players and GM's a good fun-factor.  I never had much chance to start players at level 1 and to watch them go through these stages.  It's a challenge for me as a GM to make it interesting, but to balance what I send at them vs. their 20-30 HP, and 30-50 OB.  I can't just send the Heat Elemental Zephyr hounds at the group and expect them to make it into the next room.   I sent a level 2 giant rat against two of my players and they came out bloodied and missing one ear, but they survived.  It was really fun (and funny) to "watch" them battle through. 

* - I just love the Tiny Crit table.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 10:11:41 AM »
Yes, you definitely have to be careful what you send against PCs at that level. It has to be things like a basic skeleton with no DB and a weak OB. But I think the difficulties the players have really teach them the value of positioning, of knocking down enemies, of having debuff/debilitations spells, of parrying, etc.

I think this is especially true of first-time RM players: if they're coming from DnD, they might not appreciate how much more tactical RM is. In DnD 3.5 for example, getting a rear attack was +2, which is equivalent to +10 in Rolemaster. But in Rolemaster, it is actually +35, which is equivalent to +7. It can take a while for DnD players to realize how important it is to get flank and rear attacks, and to deny your opponents the same.
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Offline arakish

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 11:33:28 AM »
Usually, it depends on the players.  I have had groups who wanted a low power level game.  Then I've also had groups who wanted a high powered hack-and-slash.  Most often (I'd say about 70%), the groups wanted a "normal" power level game.  Now here is a challenge: Define "normal" power level.  Probably should start another thread though...

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Offline jdale

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 12:22:49 PM »
It's good for Rolemaster players to learn the value of avoiding combat and of running away. That's easier when you know you are weak....

It is interesting when the balance starts to shift. E.g. in our RMSS game, it was best illustrated by our realization, after a battle, that the group of orcs we had just defeated was the same group we have run from in a half-dozen previous encounters. We were probably right to run all those times, but we finally reached the point they were something we could handle.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2018, 01:34:23 PM »
It's good for Rolemaster players to learn the value of avoiding combat and of running away. That's easier when you know you are weak....

.... let's all be heroes and run away!    8)

I have four hardcore DnD-ers who refuse to run from anything.  They all think death is only a few more rolls away because the NPC isn't parrying and he probably has about 50-75 HP.  The NPC has 145 HP and he is parrying... but RM allows you to also attack even if you've parried.  Heck, they were outnumbered 5-to-1 on a pirate boat and their only tank PC just had his weapon arm shattered at the elbow and they were set to TPK themselves because they thought they could "...take them!  They're only humans."

* - just an aside... I never understood that about DnD parrying.  If I parry, I can't attack, the bad guy still attacks, and I've accomplished nothing.  What's the point of parry?
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Fingolfin80

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2018, 05:21:49 PM »
@Fingolfin
@Voriig Kye

Thank you for your reply, but what levels do you enjoy GMing or playing?  What gives you folks the most fun?  Do you like the "learning" stages and growing pains and seeing how the players adapt and overcome the challenges, or do you enjoy the more experienced campaigns and settings with more spells, more OB, more baddies to battle?


Well, It's difficult to say. I like them both, I would say I prefer around level five, but truth is I like to get there starting from lvl one. I don't run very hack and slash campaigns, and my game group is made by people who prefer to avoid a fight if it isn't strictly necessary, so I have no problem to get them to that level without killing them. At lower level their encounters and fights are mostly against other people, monsters will come later, but honestly that's not an issue: it helps to keep the sense of wonder when they meet one.

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 05:45:46 PM »
Definitely lower levels. When characters get too high, it's actually more of a challenge matching them to suitable scenarios. I actually prefer playing lower -levels too, for much the same reason, at lower-levels of games your-characters can be more jack-of -all-trades.. and not suffer because the party hasn't got a high-level "whatever" that's a virtual requirement to survive.

Offline Voriig Kye

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 05:55:38 PM »
what levels do you enjoy GMing or playing?  What gives you folks the most fun?  Do you like the "learning" stages and growing pains and seeing how the players adapt and overcome the challenges, or do you enjoy the more experienced campaigns and settings with more spells, more OB, more baddies to battle?

I like it better when the players have some levels behind them. That allows me to throw more difficult challenges and have fun seeing how they solve them. More than combat, I enjoy trips, quests and situations where I know they have enough skill to come through, but they surprise me every time. When they are in the lower levels I must rein myself and avoid overly complex situations, since they must rely on low bonus and fewer spells.

The good angle of a lower level party is that it's easy to guide towards the intended destination. They are less likely to challenge powerful foes and avoid deadly legends, so I can better set up the campaign context ("those demons killed all the villagers and we couldn't stop them!").

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 02:33:24 AM »
I'm a bit of an odd one it seems.  I actually enjoy the around the 12-15 range most.  You have a lot of options, but you're not quite so powerful that you can't be taken down a notch by relatively normal inhabitants of the world.  However play-style and how your world works plays into that a lot.
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Offline Frabby

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2018, 03:55:55 PM »
I GM more than I play. Our group always starts new characters at level 1 and we're playing a low-powered setting.

From a GM point of view, I have to say very weak characters (Lvl 1-2) have difficulty finding their footing, they simply lack any qualification whatsoever, or at best are one-trick ponies.
It's typically between levels 3-6 where characters have developed not only personality through play but also have attained useful skill levels so that they can fill a certain role.
Around level 7 for magic users and level 10 for non-magic-users they become too powerful for most adventures, in that they can brute-force their way through a story - and they know it.
A level 10 magic user typically has spells available that will wreck many storylines outright.

From a player standpoint, I typically feel reasonably safe to roleplay ahead only when the GM might already consider my character overpowered.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2018, 04:14:36 PM »
Around level 7 for magic users and level 10 for non-magic-users they become too powerful for most adventures, in that they can brute-force their way through a story - and they know it.
I don't mean to poke fun, but this is a GM issue imo.  Rolemaster has monsters that will trounce your ass even at higher levels unless you're handing out top end gear.

One of the things we loved about the first time we dove into MERP was that, during a test fight, a dragon took out a six person party of 8th-10th level characters in three rounds flat.  It was wonderfully horrible.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2018, 08:16:50 PM »
I remember I was GMing a RM2 game with my friends (back in the day when we were still teenagers - I'm now 40  ;) ).  We always played high-powered games & they had gotten to the point where they thought they could start carving out kingdoms for themselves - which in all honesty, they probably could.  They were all around level 20 at the time.  Well, I had just bought Elemental Companion & decided they needed to see that they weren't the most powerful beings in the world.  I decided to use the Proto-Elemental Material rules and had a Nexus Drake take them on.  Let's just say they barely survived & were quite humbled.

Boy I had fun with that Nexus Drake.  ;D  ;D

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2018, 08:32:41 PM »
It does become exponentially harder though to GM higher level campaigs as magic users acquire more and more spells. A single one you didn't anticipate can end an encounter quickly. At least, that has been my experience.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2018, 10:02:38 PM »
It does become exponentially harder though to GM higher level campaigs as magic users acquire more and more spells. A single one you didn't anticipate can end an encounter quickly. At least, that has been my experience.

I agree.  I found I had to have a lot of side plots pre-prepared so that when/if they blew threw my main plot/challenge I wouldn't be left unprepared to continue the gaming session.  One thing that worked well - especially with those players that wanted to have their own magic items forged, was forcing them to jump through lots of hoops (finding an alchemist who can forge the item, finding the materials for the item, finding a mage with the special spell that will need to be cast for the item to work, &c…) in order to get it done.  Sure, they had lots of power & monetary resources - but that doesn't mean it's still easy to get what they want.  Plus, I always had some über-powerful bad guy or monster I could throw at them to slow them down (Warlocks were always fun - lobbing Changeling spells at the PCs).

I always found the fun at high levels was seeing how the players could problem solve & think outside the box - while forcing me to be creative.  Don't get me wrong - we had lots of fun at low levels.  But something about being legendary heroes going on world changing adventures has a huge draw - or at least it did for me & my friends.  I haven't GM'd for at least 15 years, haven't even played really as a PC for at least 20.  I use RM for my creative writing.  I miss those times & would love to play again.  Maybe one day, I'll have the opportunity…

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Offline Frabby

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Re: Most enjoyable power level to GM or to play?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2018, 12:52:21 AM »
Around level 7 for magic users and level 10 for non-magic-users they become too powerful for most adventures, in that they can brute-force their way through a story - and they know it.
I don't mean to poke fun, but this is a GM issue imo.  Rolemaster has monsters that will trounce your ass even at higher levels unless you're handing out top end gear.
Oh yes, the entire question of course hinges on and mirrors the GMing style.

And personally, I aim for a consistent environment that doesn't "balance" itself against the party in a neverending escalation. Player character privilege is that when you get better, you are better than you were before, in the context of the environment.
I realize that many (most?) GMs handle it differently, but that is really a discussion for a different thread.