Author Topic: Gaming Restart  (Read 6557 times)

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Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2014, 06:26:02 AM »
The issue as I perceive it is that:
  • Mages are thought of as too weak at the lower levels
  • as GMs we are inclined to blur some dice rolls to keep the players alive
  • the character creation system is complex and time consuming

Part of the balancing game play equation is that it is dangerous to be a low level magic user and that few survive to high level. The truth is that because we want our players to have fun and be actively engaged all the way through then we are disinclined to kill them when a crit says death but the party lacks the healing spell to save the member. We are also inclined to give the magic user some sort of bonus item to give them a bit more magic than their single spell in a day for example.

So unless the player does something so stupid that the character really deserves to die he is as likely to survive to just as high a level as platemailed knights. This strips out the basic premise of game balance and we then compound it if we give away spell bonus items or relaxed rules of spell list acquisition.

I don't like fixing things by adding in another magic item to try and balance it out as these things have a habit of going awry. In my party magic items have a tendency to gravitate to the magician. He periodically 'sweeps' the parties equipment just in case a spy for the bad guys has placed a cursed or enchanted item amongst our possessions. So the wyrd item above would eventually be spotted, and knowing the magician, would end up in his possession. We are carrying an incredibly powerful item that must not fall into the hands of the forces of evil so it would make sense to give this extra bit of protection to the carrier. Guess who that is!

Also having a player who doesn't like having magical characters, gifting him a spell list does not change anything as he then wouldn't be inclined to use it. Our characters mostly reflect our own personalities to a greater or lesser effect. I have a "lego brain" and in both real life and my characters I see problems as tiny little bits that just need to be solved individually to unravel the entire problem. My thief had a great many skills and I would apply long chains of skills to solve problems. My Illusionist likes to build layer upon layer of spells to create a spell effect that doesn't really exist in the books.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2014, 06:50:32 AM »
And I must say, one of the great things about RM is the spell lists, why would you want to play a character that can't cast spells?
It's easier? It's funnier? Not everyone enjoys casting spells? In over two decades playing with over one score players and three different GMs, only two players (one of them being me!) ever wanted to play a mage, and only half of them wanted to play semi-spell users. Main reasons? Too much bookkeeping (a mage quickly having to juggle with hundreds of spells —and if he doesn't, it's because he's low-level and almost useless), many more rules to know than a non-spellcaster, leveling up takes time (because the time spent in selecting the new spell lists), and being a mage is often in-game difficult and expensive (most GMs consider a mage has to find the spell lists he wants to learn, which is often a hard, dangerous and expensive matter —and from what I read here, most GMs here do the same). Even if the GM allow the mages to be very more powerful than non-mages at early levels (OK, 10+), most players just don't think it's worth the trouble.

...and, to be honest, when I read how people here want spellcasters and non-spellcasters to be equally powerful at all levels, I think I'll have an even harder time to get anyone play a mage, since it's, ingame and out-of-game, about several times more work to play one compared to playing a non-spellcaster, yet, in the end, both characters are supposed to be equally powerful?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2014, 10:17:57 AM »
RMU and RMSS seem to give more power points to starting mages than RMC/RM2 does. At a low level, additional power points let you cast a lot more spells, since the cost of each spell is very low. At higher levels, if you've just gotten a one time boost (e.g. 5 or 10 more PP), that difference becomes less and less important, your gradually built up development becomes more important and also your individual spells are more expensive so that initial bonus is small, it might not even be enough to cast a spell of your level). A multiplier is a bad solution here since it boosts both the starting mage and the master. A flat bonus early on is better if the issue is that starting mages are too weak.

Individual spell purchasing also boosts the starting mage. They can start with a lot more options at low levels instead of knowing more lists to a higher level each.

I haven't had the impression that starting mages are weak, but I've been playing RMSS and RMU, not RMC/RM2. If you think it's a problem in RMC/RM2, I suggest considering adopting or emulating some rules from those alternatives.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2014, 10:46:38 AM »
That is sort of my problem, I don't think they are weak, I just thiink they are incorrectly percieved as weak. If there is a power balance issue and I think there is, I would say that they are too powerful at a higher level.

I agree that multipiers are a bad solution. There is a discussion in a different thread about individual spell purchases. It seems that there are as many different variations in the implimentation of that as there are GMs using it. That says to me that there are significant issues in the rules as written and everyone is trying to plug holes in their own way. That may be unfair and I have no experience of my own to call on. It may be that there are no issues but the system lends itself beautifully to campaign centred bespoke magic systems.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2014, 11:20:32 AM »
...and, to be honest, when I read how people here want spellcasters and non-spellcasters to be equally powerful at all levels, I think I'll have an even harder time to get anyone play a mage, since it's, ingame and out-of-game, about several times more work to play one compared to playing a non-spellcaster, yet, in the end, both characters are supposed to be equally powerful?

My last four RM characters have been Fighter, Lay Healer, Thief and Illusionist. When I am playing frequently then I prefer the skills based classes and I agree they can be simpler to play. When I am playing infrequently the magical types and give me many hours of geeky pleasure readng spell descriptions and planning which order to learn spell lists and all that out-of-game 'work'.

I do not really need all characters to be equally powerful at all levels but I do find that magic users have a tendancy to be significantly more powerful at the higher levels. It is not the power that is the issue, it is the impact on the enjoyment of the players of the other classes I am concerned about.

I am not entirely sure I could even define power in this context. It is more to do with lethality if such a word exists. My Lay Healer used to claim about 30% to 40% of all the party kills regardless of whether he was in melee or ranged magical combat. He was normally first into the fray and last man standing. There was fundamentally nothing wrong with the other characters. It was just that as a pure spell user I never lacked for options in any situation.

In a current game there was a situation where three out of five characters were captured. We had lost our ranger, fighter and healer. The two that remained were my thief and the magician. We didn't notice the other three were missing (of course we knew they were kidnapped but their absence did not really impact our performance of the rescue mission, if anything it made the planning a hell of a lot faster!). We raided the villains base and pretty much levelled the place and killed most of his guards and rescued the other party members.

Most of the killing and levelling was done by the magician.
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Offline Profcrab

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2014, 10:15:02 AM »
I'm not sure it is as much of a power level concern as it is structuring fights so that all involved have something to do that is challenging to the player. Mages will become more powerful but if a fight or challenge has multiple elements occurring at the same time that is more than just making a mass of living things into no longer living things, then you can bring out the strengths of each profession.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 10:38:34 AM »
Yes, you are right.

When I restarted my campaign two weeks ago now I insisted that every character was sufficiently rounded to survive in a fight. That did mean that people may have sacrificed the number of spell lists they had and or some other skills. I didn't know what characters I had in the party before the game started and I have not pulled any punches to take into the account that every one of them is a first level pure, hybrid or semi spell user. They have no fighter at all. The first potential NPC they may adopt is a rather disfunctional cleric which would then give them yet another pure spell user.

The first adventures planned for the group are all combat heavy with little chance for resting a recovering power points so this should be fun.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 11:50:36 AM »
Yes, you are right.

When I restarted my campaign two weeks ago now I insisted that every character was sufficiently rounded to survive in a fight. That did mean that people may have sacrificed the number of spell lists they had and or some other skills. I didn't know what characters I had in the party before the game started and I have not pulled any punches to take into the account that every one of them is a first level pure, hybrid or semi spell user. They have no fighter at all. The first potential NPC they may adopt is a rather disfunctional cleric which would then give them yet another pure spell user.

The first adventures planned for the group are all combat heavy with little chance for resting a recovering power points so this should be fun.

Ironically, I am running into the opposite scenario.  I have 7 fighters and 1 pure spell user.  The fighters are all going in guns blazing and getting hammered by high end crits.  They are being taken out of the fight because they refuse to parry or break out of the D&D D-20 mindset.  They look at HP and figure they have the time to stand and fight.  The mage at least knows to start casting inside the building then to stand up and to shoot the spell out the window.  They are all veteran players and this is their first time with RM, however, it's easily the 4th-5th session and I have been preaching Parry Parry Parry  every session and reminding them that Hits don't kill you, Crits do.

A few are catching on.  I am still pulling punches on the death crits, but letting them have the full damage otherwise.  12 rounds stun, shattered and useless arm, severed tendons and muscle, knocked unconscious, etc.

I'm hoping that once they have to roll their own characters up, they'll see a little more tactically to the game play.  It's been tons of fun and lots of great laughs though and that's more important.  Lot's of great one-liners too.

If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
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Offline choc

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 07:53:35 PM »
That is sort of my problem, I don't think they are weak, I just think they are incorrectly percieved as weak.

Indeed.
I think part of this is the perception (and the player's deception) the other part of the threshold in many skills (and spells, most open and closed spell list are designed to have a threshold at lvl 5/6). On the other hand RMfrp doesn't  claim to have perfectly balanced professions. It's the job of the GM and the setting.
A lot of the pure spell user skills (spellmastery for example) become super powerful, after a hard time in lower levels.
The probably most powerful profession is the paladin, but he'll be balanced by his deities rules.
Magicians are often part of a school, union, guild, order, bondsmagi, etc.
And higher spells also increase the risk factor (very nice way to keep a pure spell user from spamming spells).

To manage the low pp issue in lower levels, they often get rings as novice, adept, master ... our GMs used to give pp repository rings to a novice or a staff with charges.  (or a better quality weapon to the pure arms - weapons tend to break anyways). So at the end many characters are not really more powerful in lvl 7 than in lvl 3 in their main proficiencies.

A 'of Mentalism' pure spell user isn't the best example for the melee possibilities of pure spell users, they have significant lower costs in mundane skills as well as the possibility of metal armor.

My longtime experience is that the pure arms or arms based semi have a more unreserved life and a bigger bunch of contacts and buddies than the spell users. Who likes to go bar-hopping and end up as a frog next morning because his buddy became too drunk?  :D

Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 02:03:16 AM »
I am definitely going in Yammahoper's direction and pretty much what you just described. The characters have been given some material assistance but it was in the form of a couple of potions and some herbs rather than inthe form of permenant magical items.

I do not intend to give the party any magical items for a few levels yet apart from one cursed ring that is there to be found. Mind you the party walked past three out of five interesting encounters int he first session so there is good chance they will completely miss that one as well. If it doesn't leap out at them wielding a bastard sword then they are inclined to ignore it.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2014, 06:49:44 AM »
If it doesn't leap out at them wielding a bastard sword then they are inclined to ignore it.

 ;D  That's awesome.

And sadly, often times true.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2014, 09:36:57 AM »
Quote
If it doesn't leap out at them wielding a bastard sword then they are inclined to ignore it.

HAhaha  :gnash: hahaHA!

You sir made me choke on hot coffee. 
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2014, 10:14:09 AM »
That was actually the litteral truth. The only hostiles they have actually encountered have been a race known as Quoggoths. They are a wonderful low level beasty.

They are 11' tall, shaggy furred like a bear but as muscular as an ape and wield either spiked clubs or bastard swords. What makes them so wonderful is that they only have a 20OB so they are unlikely to slaughter your party and the bastard sword is capped to a max roll of 140 so that limits the number of E crits you have to deal out should things go really badly. They have 50 hits but will go into a frenzy when they go below 20. So fi the party are doing really well then there is a chance that at least one will go into a frenzy were it gets extra OB and doesn't feel pain so badly which makes them much more dangerous but if the party need rescuing then a frenzied creature does not distinguish between friend and foe so well so you can always turn one on the others to help the party out. Quoggoths are naturally empathetic with giant and huge spiders and often have trained spiders to hand which gives the GM the option to throw in another beasty if needed especially one that can slowly lower itself down onto the unsuspecting party or behind it to block a retreat. Because they are 11' tall they use the large crit table which does give anyone the chance of doing an open ended crit and killing one whereas some low level characters expecially our pure spell users at first level have difficulty doing more than an A crit.

So really it had to have a bastard sword to get their attention, or fangs but I ddn't give them much choice with that one. Everything else they tried to hide from.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 11:41:53 AM »
Everything else they tried to hide from.

Nothing wrong with Strategic Reassessment of Current Tactical Resources and Implementation.  :)

I've said it before...........

If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 11:46:05 AM »
Your weapon cap rule is yet another I wanted to see used to remove the tables in RM and make them into a simply expressed set of numbers on the character sheet.  A weapon could first crit(k) at 93, have a spread of 20 (B Kr at 113, C Kr at 133, etc) and cap at 145, as a club for example.  Armor would mod first crit strike per crit type (AT 5, +7 Sl, +2 Pu, +0 Kr).  With all damage delivered via crits, weapons would not need to deliver a base hit amount.  However, if desired, a hits delivered mechanic could be derived using St and/or size mods.

I digress.  ::)
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2014, 11:57:36 AM »
The table cap is not really my rule it is the weapon spec in AL/CL.

I would not like to see this sort of data on the character sheet.  I do not tell my PCs the actual AT or DB of the foes they engage. Sometimes it is obvious what armour it is but occasionally you will have someone dressed in soft leather but the actual AT is higher due to magic or quality.  Under your idea you would have to reveal the armour to the characters.

Table caps are not uncommon.  Nearly all weapons in SM have a cap and all the claw law tables are capped.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2014, 12:29:07 PM »
TMWTD makes great use of them.  I would like them universally applied to all attack types, including condensing the data presented while expanding options to the GM.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Peter R

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2014, 01:00:08 PM »
TMTWD? Sorry, you have lost me. I thought you were going for teenage mutant ninja turtles there for a second.
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Offline kedrake

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2014, 01:24:01 PM »
TMWTD = Ten Million Ways to Die
If there is a turd in the punch bowl, adding more punch isn't going to help.

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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Gaming Restart
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2014, 02:15:41 PM »
Does anyone remember the original TMNT black and white comic?  Oh those were good.  Think hardcore post apocalyptic in style instead of pizza eating skater boyz.

TMWTD offers condensed attack tables covering melee, missile, modern and future arms.  The tables reduce AL to ten columns and include SM armor types.  This of course allows SM armor to be easily introduced in any setting or just used as magic armors.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.