Author Topic: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech  (Read 6826 times)

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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« on: October 27, 2014, 06:51:41 AM »
As we pull together the old files and look towards reinventing Space Master, naturally the level of technology and how it is presented comes up. While some have speculated that the 'Imperial Setting' was planned for a Dune RPG, as you know, the tech was really not reflective of  the kind of anti-technology steampunk tech that Frank Herbert and David Lynch envisioned. Barrett and I had more of a hard science vision, along the lines of Larry Niven, but with an Empire political structure. Of course, back in the 80's we could not even imagine how far technology has come in only 30 years, so who knows what it will be like hundreds of years from now? Though, inevitably there will be backsliding. Even now on Earth, we sent men to the moon 45 (45!!) years ago, and now we are struggling to send people to our orbiting station. Pathetic.

So, there could be dark ages and setbacks, so the far future tech could look like a strange mix of old and new. Certainly certain organizations (e.g., the DK) will have a stranglehold on certain tech, but all the houses have FTL ships and most major technology. The question is, how will it manifest...
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Offline dutch206

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 07:10:44 AM »
Yes, I was wondering this as well.  Back in the 80's, I could never have imagined a single hand-held device which could be used for communication, photos, video, and computing.  Now, everyone has access to such devices.
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 09:16:24 AM »
I would recommend taking a look at the following sources for inspiration and ideas:

Eve Online => very interesting views on technology, space travel (including space stations and colonies), and cloning

Eclipse Phase => technology in general, as well as travel, communication, nanotechnology, etc.  Also their view of characters is interesting.  While they use a different approach than any other RPG out there, it might be worth taking a look at just for ideas on possible modifications to human biology and modifications; including cloning.  Especially since it has a hard-sci-fi focus, even though it is not set that far in the future

I would like to see more a Larry Niven type of hard-sci-fi approach myself, or even take a look at such sources as the later Foundation Series that was continued by Brinn, Bear, and Beneford (if I'm remembering the correct authors who continued Asimov's storyline). 

Would also be worth taking a look at (and possibly trying to license or try to develop something similar to) Attack Vector by Ad Astra Games for development of a good 3D space combat/dog-fight simulation system.

Will post more ideas as they come to me.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 11:18:52 AM »
One possible answer for why technology is so varied in the empire, with old ones still used, is the AI problem: you don't want them getting too smart, or you've got Skynet and Terminators.

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, but I also really liked molecutronics (and think you guys did a great job of predicting that one!).
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 12:08:04 PM »
One possible answer for why technology is so varied in the empire, with old ones still used, is the AI problem: you don't want them getting too smart, or you've got Skynet and Terminators.

Or, slightly less ominously, the Polity.
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Offline Marrethiel

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 09:20:50 PM »
One possible answer for why technology is so varied in the empire, with old ones still used, is the AI problem: you don't want them getting too smart, or you've got Skynet and Terminators.

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, but I also really liked molecutronics (and think you guys did a great job of predicting that one!).
I read an interesting book a while ago that proposed a kind of decaying radius in technology. So as you get further from the centre of empire or fully estabilished solar systems (ie it takes the inputs of more than one planet in a solar system to have the resources for max technology) that the maximum level of stable tech is lower. So for example you can for example bring in a food replicator but there will be power issues and maintenance and maybe not beging able to get a properly refined fuel source.

I've always liked this idea and in this book the empire actually new of this principle and had the theory supported by extensive math and research. This gives GM's a whole lot of plot devices.
For example:
A mineral rich planet is found but it is outside the radius to be able to support the tech needed to harvest it. Which means that while it can still be harvested, it won't be economical because too many outside resources will be needed.
Or a new transport method might have been invented which would change the technology curve, but this would bankrupt several mega corps. This would be a great black ops game.
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2014, 01:16:40 AM »
 I think the introduction of nanotechnology building will change everything. once you have nano machines that can construct other things and can be programmed to build anything you want the tech goes through the roof.
 Now you can have specific tech "levels" programmed into said nano devices and that could be regulated but IMHO you get some of the biggest bang for you buck if you can introduce high tech onto frontier worlds. ie the high tech can make huge improvements into the quality of life or even if you survive on a frontier planet.
 But you can also have a throw back section of the populace that will not use such devices and that can invoke a unique period of time and sociology.


 I do not know a lot about SM2 tech or the universe but if you have restrictions on the top tier tech (FTL, bio-engineering, nano tech, sociological tech, VR, weapons, starship construction, materials tech, engineering tech and computer tech) it can provide a framework for governments, states, houses or ruling corporations.
 But as you have said the problem is projecting the future onto todays world or at least projecting a future that does not seem too far fetched into a RPG of today.
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2014, 07:06:48 AM »
I've always liked this idea and in this book the empire actually new of this principle and had the theory supported by extensive math and research. This gives GM's a whole lot of plot devices.
For example:
A mineral rich planet is found but it is outside the radius to be able to support the tech needed to harvest it. Which means that while it can still be harvested, it won't be economical because too many outside resources will be needed.

In this situation, you would need to import some Amish folks to do the work.  They are good at using low end technology to do hard physical work and still do it well and efficiently. 

Some of these comments remind me of an idea I had a couple of decades ago for a series of adventures, where a small corp developed a breakthrough technology, but kept it quiet and hidden, so that they could produce large quantities of materials dirt-cheap but sell them for the moderately high prices that everyone else did due to the somewhat high cost of refining.  Not sure if I should reveal the idea here, but might as well.  Aluminum!  it is expensive to refine due to the electrical energy needs of the usual refining process despite it being very common (on Earth for example), but if someone could develop a better and cheaper way to refine it, they could easily take control of a large part of the market. 
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2014, 07:51:56 AM »
 I was just watching a few shows on the Great Estates of Scotland and they were talking about His Royal Highness's keen interest in providing job training for the people around one of the estates he took over. One of HRH focus was on low tech professions and vocations, stone work, thatching, farming, etc.
 The point being that IMHO low tech skills are very important even moving forward tech wise.



 The shows are a bit slow and feel like a very boring museum tour but if you are into seeing some great stuff you might want to check out your local PBS station (If you are in the states).
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BTW, here is Portland we just got back a Milkman who delivers milk and other goodies in wee hours of the morning. That is one job that I thought just about went extinct back in the 70's and 80's.   
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2014, 06:04:08 PM »
The question is, how will it manifest...
This is actually quite easy to answer: very much like it does here on Earth.

You have 4 basic tech levels, at any given time:

Cutting Edge: This is the highest/newest, and often it is also more buggy being the most recently developed and has not undergone the true "play-testing" yet. (Being used by millions of people on a day-to-day basis; there really isn't any comparison to that sort of testing.) But it is also generally the "coolest" in terms of capabilities, luxury, etc... For the most part only the super-rich, military (but only the newest equipment), high-government officials and the like will have access to this. So, the newest battlships of the fleet will have this type of equipment, the older ships will still have the average tech (see below). Basically, this is either brand-new tech or it is just more refined/capable versions of existing tech: like more powerful weapons of the same size/type, or much better computers.

Average: This is the technology accessable to the vast majority of the populace. Using today as an example, this would include smartphones, cars with computers and advanced safety features, good computers, etc... Most people are familiar enough with this type of technology that it is normal to them to see and use - not that there aren't exceptions, of course (see Out-of-Date and Anachronistic, below).

Out-of-Date: This is the stuff that is, well, a little out-of-date with the current technology. Modern-day examples include: payphones/land-lines, leaded-gas using vehicles, VCRs, etc... These things are generally not used by most people, but there are still some "hold-outs" that do. Also, when we are talking about a multi-system space setting, where worlds don't have constant, regular, and speedy contact with each other, this type of tech will be way more common, and actually the "Tech-level" of many worlds/peoples.

Anachronistic: For whatever reason, there always seems to be those individuals and groups that just don't want to be (or can't be) "modern." The Amish are a great example, so are several tribes in both South America and Africa (as well as other areas, I am sure). The tech-level of such people will be so out of synch with the rest of the populace, as to make them, for all intents an purposes, a distinctly different people/culture - not to mentions seem strange to the more "modern" people. In these groups you can find some seriously low-technologies, like stone-age or similar. In a space setting, it is very easy to imagine that the population of an entire would could using ancient tech like this, probably because they have not had access to sources of higher tech for a long time (including the people who build and work on such tech).

The way these all work together, of course, depend upon the setting and the answers to a few questions: Has there been a concerted effort to limit technological growth? Has there been serious enough upheaval (massive civilation-wide wars, for example) to stop growth? (Which would only be for a limited time, as we just seem to have this drive to go on, even when it doesn't seem like it.) Have there been outside influences, like aliens with higher/stranger technology?

While I am sure there are many more questions that pertain, those 3 are a pretty-good jumping off point, I believe. But basically, unless the setting is so different from "reality" to be nearly unplayable, it will be like now: the expensive/new/cutting-edge stuff with limited availibility, the average stuff that most have access to and understand, the slightly older technology only used by those without access to the normal stuff or those that just want to hold onto what they know, and the much lower tech usually being used by those that actively resist modernization, though there can be other reasons as well.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2014, 12:43:22 AM »
A few totally random thoughts...

I, personally, believe that we (in real life) should not create true independently thinking artificial intelligence.  I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I just know how stupid and destructive us humans can be and I really can totally see a true artificial intelligence deciding to 'save us from ourselves' even with good intentions resulting in rather negative consequences.  I'd say that I'd want that sucker locked in a signal proof room with an independent power source... but then you have an intelligent being in a prison cell, so the whole thing is just a bad idea imo.  This is something that can always be worked into a setting to varying degrees (i.e. we did it, or we didn't, we did and it went bad, hasn't gone bad yet, etc).

The other thing is that smart companies will sometimes use out-of-date tech because all the ultra modern tech is 'too smart' for it.  So, as advanced as you might make the setting, I think it's a good idea to put some minor thought into rare older tech.  Sounds silly, but say there's a future world where all locks are bio-locks or just electronic in general... and someone sticks a good old fashioned keyed lock on a door.

Also... I do not want my Sci-Fi setting to be Steampunk.  They are two very different things... but I don't think that needs to be pointed out.
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2014, 01:37:27 AM »
 Yes access to tech is describe very well by RandalThor, above but I also think there is a time when there can be not much difference is cutting edge and average tech. For example take a screw driver, that piece of tech has not changed very much recently, AFIK and from the look of the ones in my tool chest.


 When talking about complex tech I still think there is going to be a time when nano tech will take over just about everything and can do just about everything.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 03:20:38 PM »
I read an interesting book a while ago that proposed a kind of decaying radius in technology. So as you get further from the centre of empire or fully estabilished solar systems (ie it takes the inputs of more than one planet in a solar system to have the resources for max technology) that the maximum level of stable tech is lower. So for example you can for example bring in a food replicator but there will be power issues and maintenance and maybe not beging able to get a properly refined fuel source.

I've always liked this idea and in this book the empire actually new of this principle and had the theory supported by extensive math and research. This gives GM's a whole lot of plot devices.
For example:
A mineral rich planet is found but it is outside the radius to be able to support the tech needed to harvest it. Which means that while it can still be harvested, it won't be economical because too many outside resources will be needed.
Or a new transport method might have been invented which would change the technology curve, but this would bankrupt several mega corps. This would be a great black ops game.

So is that basically for logistical reasons?

A Fire Upon The Deep by Vernor Vinge proposed different "zones" supporting different levels of technology for reasons due to the underlying physics. E.g. FTL communications/transit/computing is possible only in the Beyond and the Transcend, not in the Slowness. Devices (which include minds) from a higher zone break down quickly in lower zones. You could travel to a slower area, but if you hadn't planned ahead with appropriate technology, you could easily find yourself stranded with a spacecraft with non-functioning drives, failing computers, etc. The boundaries changed gradually, and were mapped out, but you could have a situation where a civilization basically has to move from one star system to another unless they are willing to regress. And likewise where a civilization unexpectedly enters a faster zone, bringing opportunity but also vulnerability to more advanced civilizations.

The "Beyond" was basically the norm for the story. FTL and advanced technologies. The Slowness had no FTL or FTL communication, tech close to Earth modern. The Transcend had nearly godlike AIs and other incomprehensible things; by the nature of the physics, they were virtually impossible for those in the Beyond to understand, and mostly concerned with equally incomprehensible matters.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 03:37:46 PM »
When talking about complex tech I still think there is going to be a time when nano tech will take over just about everything and can do just about everything.
Yeah, the ultimate multi-tool. This could be the best thing to happen to humanity (and everything else), or the worst (perhaps both).
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Offline Marrethiel

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2014, 09:39:04 PM »
So is that basically for logistical reasons?

In essesnce, yes.
While the author didn't go into it deeply, a low popularion solar system just didn't have the ability to support super high tech. Even if important resources were found on a planet, if it was too far away from the market no one would bother to harvest it.

My interpretation would be something like the (semi)abandoned mining towns you see in rural settings. Once the resource is expended the tech level goes down to a "natural" state. Not very fast internet, less schooling options, the brightest leave for the lure of big cities. etc etc
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2014, 12:47:17 AM »
Love this discussion! And, pointing to the recent Orbital launch tragic failure, we can even see here in present day the possibility of the use of antiquated tech (40 yo Soviet moon program engines) causing problems, while at the same time SpaceX is 3D printing new engines for its rockets. Nanotech is certainly an innovation to consider, but I think at least as a preliminary thought that we should avoid it in SpaceMaster because of the unlimited potential.

I envision SpaceMaster as a mix of near-future and retro (I like the tech-radius idea) where there can be advances as far as Niven (autodocs and flying sleds), but the tech is unevenly spread, and maybe a lot of it is recovered old technology from before the empire, and unreliable. There is also the whole 'human pilot' factor that we also see in Star Trek: why are humans piloting star ships, when a computer would do it so much better? Maybe there is a wariness of "M5 and the AI factor" though not as severe as the Dune Butlerian jihad. Maybe something catastrophic happened in earth's past, as Elon Musk has warned against.
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 01:42:24 AM »
  I also think a good question would be what tech makes retro tech "not necessary"? ie the nano tech might be able to pull minerals right from the ground and build what you need. Or nano tech might be able to create almost any material you want right on the spot. Just assemble the material you have on hand into the proper atomic configuration and, poof there it is. If that is the case you could use any matter on a planet to create the matter you want.
 So yes Nano tech can cause huge problems, IMHO.



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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2014, 02:05:49 AM »
I could see nanotech as something like AI that was tried thousands of years ago and it got out of control and it was brought under control only with a great sacrifice and backslide, and mankind is cautious about tech now on several levels, so they control things on a daily basis.
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2014, 03:19:29 AM »
 Yes that is the basis of a great setting knowing what "controls" to have in place to make things believable and work game wise.
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Offline terefang

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2014, 06:07:39 AM »

You might definitely take a look at "Perry Rhodan": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Rhodan


It is a definite example how civilizations might evolve and even regress,
stories about the race for technologies owned by others thru espionage,
and Rebuilds Civilization from Natural (or Warbound) Disasters.




mfg.


PS: (Thats how the Terrans got their FTL from those dumb/retarded Aliens that crashed-landed on the moon)
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