Author Topic: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech  (Read 6799 times)

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Offline jdale

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2014, 09:33:44 AM »
In A Fire Upon The Deep, the major threat is actually an ancient AI that is awoken by "prospectors" searching along the edges of the Transcend. They are trying to find useful things, but it is much, much smarter than they are, has more advanced nanotech, and effectively they are possessed, allowing things to go horribly awry.

With regard to advanced computing vs humans doing it, aside from the "AI becomes evil" trope, another limitation would be hacking. What if computers are never secure? Perhaps you can even get around the "air gap" by nanomeson beaming directly into the circuitry. You can't afford to trust piloting software that might be compromised, especially in a combat situation. Combat robots are as much a threat to their controllers as to the enemy. This postulates more technological advancement, rather than less, just moving in a different direction.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2014, 01:50:45 AM »
Nanotech is certainly an innovation to consider, but I think at least as a preliminary thought that we should avoid it in SpaceMaster because of the unlimited potential.
Even though I was, up-thread, like "nano is soooo cooool" I think there is lot of mitigating factors that will limit its use in practice. (I am at work so not able to fully explain what I mean right now, but I will later today.)

There is also the whole 'human pilot' factor that we also see in Star Trek: why are humans piloting star ships, when a computer would do it so much better? Maybe there is a wariness of "M5 and the AI factor" though not as severe as the Dune Butlerian jihad. Maybe something catastrophic happened in earth's past, as Elon Musk has warned against.
Well, some of that is going to be another aspect of the human factor: ego, more specifically: hubris. Humans like to be in control - for a variety of reasons that all basically boil down to ego/hubris - so that will limit the "AIs in control of everything", or slow it down, at least.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2014, 02:54:49 AM »
Silly me, this is already in the 2nd Edition timeline... (it does sound a bit 'Butlerien Jihad'...)

PreImp. 7887 - 7610 - The Universal Technological Recession of mankind. As if motivated by a single will, almost every colony is cast into a technological dark age as the human masses revolt against the ever increasing control of automation over their lives. The duration of the revolt varies for each colony, so the dates given are rather artificial. The first date marks the initial instance of a violent revolt, although there had been notable unrest over the preceding three decades. The end date
marks the general desire for renewed technological progress embodied in the form of a scientific symposium held on the Sol Mars colony. Despite the tremendous suffering that was experienced just before the recession (and throughout this dark age), the lack of a strong centralized regulatory body prevents the enforcement of policies which would prevent these unfortunate events from occurring again. It is interesting to note that one of the very few organizations to survive the Recession (and even flourish in it) was the Dia Khovaria.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2014, 01:23:24 PM »
Alright, Nano-Tech.

So, the limiting factors I see* for nanotech are the following (pretty-much in order as I see it):

Materials - the nanotech will need a source of base material to work with, though because there is all sorts of material everywhere most assume this is not a problem. I say it is because I have a hard time believing that nanos will be able to turn any substance into any other substance. ("Hey, are stuck on some unforgiving, God-forsaken planet without a decent kitchen or cupboard? Well, never fear. With the patented Ronco NanoMealC just place a tablet on any old rock, and Blammo! in minutes you have a piping hot steak dinner for two! With all the sides! Or, for those vegetarians out there, a wonderful vegetable soup complete with bowls and utensils! Doesn't that sound yummy?!?!") I think, that only limited molecular modification will be possible, so no turning inorganic materials into organic ones, and some substances may be just plain impossible to replicate this way. ("Oh, sorry captain, but we cannot reprogram the nanite warheads to create new dilithium crystals for the engines out of the broken bulkhead. The crystal matrix is too complex for the nanites.")

Software - the programing needed to tell the nanites what to make will be, I am sure, exceedingly complex limiting its usefulness. Using them to break things down will likely be the easiest/most common use for nanites. Basically, they can only do what they are told to do (unless you get into the "they evolved to be sentient" scenario, then they are still only doing what they are told to do, only that they are doing the telling themselves), and I am sure a certain percentage of them have to be used for the "brain", with this percentage going up the more complicated the programming.

Us - like the ego/hubris ideology I posed above, the makers of the nanotech will be the biggest limiting factor in what it will be able to do. Unless self driven, nanites will just sit there doing nothing until told to do something, and those orders will be limited by the fears and desires of the order givers and creators of the nanites. So, if we build in limitations that they are "hard-wired" to hold on to, some orders will not even be acknowledged (unless there is also a built in security feature to alert the nearest law enforcement agency that an illegal order was given), and certainly not followed. Sure, like any piece of technology they will likely be vulnerable to hacking, but I would assume there would be built in security features to make that very hard. Sort of like trying to hack the new NSA server farm; very, very hard. Perhaps made largely impossible due to "hard-wiring", meaning that you can hack a refrigerator all you want, but you cannot make it shoot someone because it isn't a gun. Because I believe most people are smart enough to see the danger that nanites can pose, they will (hopefully) build in some pretty-strong safety features.



*As I am not a super high-tech scientist, I am sure I am missing a lot here. [Though I could have sworn I had more to say before going to bed this morning. :) ] Hopefully, it is good enough to explain why nanotech is limited in a roleplaying game.
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2014, 02:59:14 PM »
I agree, anything beyond molecular level changes would be extremely difficult, in fact some molecular changes can take quite a bit of energy and manipulation to pull off. 
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2014, 03:34:51 PM »
  For nanit tech I see time a a factor not so much as what. I agree with the complexities of molecule structure but IMHO with enough nanites they could maneuver atoms into place one at a time. Now it will take some time to get to that point but I think it is very realistic for such far future tech.
 I also think that vastly improved Computer Tech will play a huge part in nantit construction with stored "structures" that can easily produce basic material for other more advanced structures.
 I can also see 3D modeling or Bio-Architecture being need to create such basic structures that have the function to create the biological things we need to live and survive.


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Offline jdale

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2014, 11:31:42 PM »
Silly me, this is already in the 2nd Edition timeline... (it does sound a bit 'Butlerien Jihad'...)

PreImp. 7887 - 7610 - The Universal Technological Recession of mankind. As if motivated by a single will, almost every colony is cast into a technological dark age as the human masses revolt against the ever increasing control of automation over their lives. The duration of the revolt varies for each colony, so the dates given are rather artificial. The first date marks the initial instance of a violent revolt, although there had been notable unrest over the preceding three decades. The end date
marks the general desire for renewed technological progress embodied in the form of a scientific symposium held on the Sol Mars colony. Despite the tremendous suffering that was experienced just before the recession (and throughout this dark age), the lack of a strong centralized regulatory body prevents the enforcement of policies which would prevent these unfortunate events from occurring again. It is interesting to note that one of the very few organizations to survive the Recession (and even flourish in it) was the Dia Khovaria.


These days I like to think the revolt would be against technology which is turned against us for the purpose of measuring, quantifying, and controlling us, not in order to rule, but in order to profit. We have vast data collection machines such as Google or Amazon, even books are being turned into surveillance machines http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/03/business/media/e-book-mingles-love-and-product-placement.html, we find that the carriers of our information are secretly planting identification codes into our every communication made with our personal devices http://www.propublica.org/article/somebodys-already-using-verizons-id-to-track-users Who needs AI to find evil in technology?

We've also seen recently how spontaneous revolutions can trigger more of the same in other nations (e.g. Arab Spring).

Still, it seems a bit... idealistic? to imagine such revolutions succeeding while eschewing advanced technology, unless they had some ability to subvert that technology of their foes.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2014, 11:42:04 PM »
Us - like the ego/hubris ideology I posed above, the makers of the nanotech will be the biggest limiting factor in what it will be able to do. Unless self driven, nanites will just sit there doing nothing until told to do something, and those orders will be limited by the fears and desires of the order givers and creators of the nanites.

At most basic, look at genetically modified crops, sold in a form that is non-reproducing or otherwise not a threat to the producers' business model. It's not in anyone's interest to sell unlimited use and self-reproducing nanotech, even if it was possible. It's inherently unsafe and bad for business to boot. Limited function examples can be interesting super science but I don't think there's any reason to postulate it will operate far beyond its design, unless you are a nanotech engineer equipped with industrial facilities. Anything with offensive capabilities (even just local) can also be restricted as a military weapon.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2014, 01:52:41 AM »
even books are being turned into surveillance machines
If anyone has a smart TV, read the fine print on the usage contract. From a report I read (I will try to dig it up for a link), they are able to use the camera's and microphones to record you at home to sell to third parties, generally for marketing purposes I believe. But, is it really far-fetched to think that an agency like the NSA will put such devices to their own, specific use? I think not.

I think that this means that "luddites" will continue to be a thing, far into the future.
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2014, 07:51:28 AM »
jdale,
 "It is not in anyone's interest to sell unlimited use and self-reproducing nanotech,..."
 I agree up until there is a point where you have to do so as the tech has matured to that point.
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2014, 02:26:40 PM »
Here is an article on 3D printed Liver Tissue; http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/04/technology/innovationnation/3d-printed-organs/index.html?hpt=hp_t3 .
 Think of what will be possible in the future? (That is if it works and everything goes well.) ;D
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Offline jdale

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2014, 11:11:39 PM »
jdale,
 "It is not in anyone's interest to sell unlimited use and self-reproducing nanotech,..."
 I agree up until there is a point where you have to do so as the tech has matured to that point.
MDC

Once it's possible, the cost of producing it to sell is trivial. But selling even one unit destroys all future sales, since the buyer is now equipped to compete perfectly against the seller.

It could be that it is accidentally released and then everyone has it (everyone who hasn't been reduced to gray goo that is). I think in that case you'd end up with waves of competing nanophages trying to destroy it to get it back under someone's control. An interesting premise for the end of a world...
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Offline markc

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2014, 12:56:30 AM »
  There is also a point when $ does not mean everything and it could even be a situation when it is provided to settlers on planets or deep space to make their lives easier.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2014, 12:13:50 AM »
even books are being turned into surveillance machines
If anyone has a smart TV, read the fine print on the usage contract. From a report I read (I will try to dig it up for a link), they are able to use the camera's and microphones to record you at home to sell to third parties, generally for marketing purposes I believe. But, is it really far-fetched to think that an agency like the NSA will put such devices to their own, specific use? I think not.

I think that this means that "luddites" will continue to be a thing, far into the future.

I've pretty much given up on being tracked. I use my grocery card for discounts, and the credit card companies track your every move. But when I heard that they could turn on your computer camera remotely, without the light going on, I put a piece of tape over it.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2014, 01:07:06 AM »
Either you're not paranoid or we both are, because my laptop has a small piece of electrical tape over the camera lens. :)
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2014, 01:22:50 AM »
Either you're not paranoid or we both are, because my laptop has a small piece of electrical tape over the camera lens. :)

 8)
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Offline TerryTee

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2014, 01:25:09 AM »
I've pretty much given up on being tracked. I use my grocery card for discounts, and the credit card companies track your every move. But when I heard that they could turn on your computer camera remotely, without the light going on, I put a piece of tape over it.
Either you're not paranoid or we both are, because my laptop has a small piece of electrical tape over the camera lens. :)
I use this (as I use my camera about once per week for rpg sessions online) http://www.c-slide.com/product/c-slide-1-0/

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2014, 11:36:33 AM »
What do you all think about Virtual Servers? 
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline TerryTee

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2014, 01:16:00 PM »
What do you all think about Virtual Servers? 
RW or for SM?

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Space Master 3rd Edition Tech
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2014, 11:02:31 AM »
RW.  I am curious if I should begin to use one.  I only recently became aware of them and seek real life knowledge.

Certainly off topic  :P
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.